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downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5715950 - 06/05/06 05:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basilides said: I simply don't accept the "stress of war" theory as an excuse. While we're at it, why don't we give Hamas some leniency because of the "stress of occupation"? You're defending mass murderers, plain and simple. Mass murderers, whether U.S. servicemen or cladestine fanatics, deserve nothing short of extermination from this planet.
Actually I am sympathetic to Hamas, well, was. Yesterday they changed their mind about letting Israel exist so now Abbas and his security forces are trying to kill Hamas leaders and kick them out of office.
Apparently you haven't been keeping up with how effective the death penalty is at impeding crime. You are expressing revenge, a primitive emotion, the same emotion those soldiers experienced. Good job, you're just like them.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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Basilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Redstorm]
#5715967 - 06/05/06 05:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm all for getting rid of the Tookie's of this world
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Basilides
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: downforpot]
#5715972 - 06/05/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I, on the other hand, am not sympathetic to Hamas. They may build schools and hospitals, but they also blow up women and children.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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downforpot
Stranger

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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5715996 - 06/05/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basilides said: I, on the other hand, am not sympathetic to Hamas. They may build schools and hospitals, but they also blow up women and children.
Everybody is a killer. Hamas hasn't carried out a suicide attack in months by the way. Oh and did I mention I part Israeli, the jewish kind.
Tookie should have been kept alive. He's basically a "convert" but he should have admitted to killing those people when asking for clemency. He could have been used to teach kids about gang violence and that they should instead focus on school.
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http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Redstorm]
#5717060 - 06/05/06 10:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: Did 10 Habeebs pull out grenades and machine guns? I seemed to have missed that part when I read coverage on the incident.
Some did. The numbers don't matter. When terrorists hide in groups of civilians, civilians will die. Maybe the shroomery could mail the Terrorist a letter asking them nicely to blow our troops up at pre-selected locations so that we won't clip a few "innocents" in the process.
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#5717100 - 06/05/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The_Red_Crayon said: Ah so the entire people in the village are potential terrorists,
Yea thats the size of it.
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including women and children,
Extremists muslims don't seem too concerned about the gender or age of someone, unless it's to persecute them.
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Do you honestly think the entire village are terrorists,
It's hard to even expect that you know what "honest" is, after you've claimed that it was a "fact" that I wanted Marines to shoot babies, or whatever, and after you just said about a paragraph ago that the villagers, really everyone, is a POTENTIAL terrorist. Do I think that every Iraqi is a POTENTIAL terrorist? sure. Do I think that every villager is a terrorist? No, and I never said that I did. Do you honestly think that terrorists should be able to blow up Marines? Notwithstanding the fact that you didn't say that, I'm just slinging some invective and conjuring up opinions and straw-men to argue against.
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Divulge because you sure seem uneducated.
It's really none of your business. I don't feel a need to reveal personal information on a board relating to the felony of producing controlled substances. Just trust me on this one, MILES and MILES of experience, much more than the inch you claimed.
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How does this have absolutely anything to do with the Haditha incident, Do you even know the official story? Your just ranting off on psychobabble, Shrooming hippies? Your a nutcase.
Yea, well, why didn't you answer where you derived the "fact" that I supported killing innocents? Why didn't you even answer that? Did the voices in your head that told you what I believed not feed you an answer? You seem to be the one with either a lacking intellect or a warped view of reality.
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Redstorm
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The armed forces have training just for these types of situations. Are you telling me that it is standar procedure to fire into a crowd if a hostile target moves into it? I call bullshit if you say yes to the previous question.
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5717125 - 06/05/06 10:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basilides said: Awww, the poor war criminals.
Doubtful.
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Again, I don't care.
then drop it 
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Death is what they've sowed. The fact that you're making excuses for them is somewhat reprehensible.
It's not an excuse, it's a reason. Innocents die in war. The bombing of Germany to end WWII, the bombing of Japan to end the Pacific campaign, noone lamented the deaths of the noncoms in those places. Thats just how war is. And I wish I could buy a neon sign, or perhaps a large hammer, with a message stating that IF the Marines did shoot unarmed people who were known to be noncom's, then they should be tried.
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Basilides
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There's a huge difference between collateral damage and war crimes. Considering the amount of innocent people who are consistently killed accidently by the coalition forces, it is doubtful that one of these incidents would some how become manipulated into a war crime.
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Redstorm]
#5718953 - 06/06/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Redstorm said: The armed forces have training just for these types of situations. Are you telling me that it is standar procedure to fire into a crowd if a hostile target moves into it? I call bullshit if you say yes to the previous question.
It's standard procedure to kill the bad guys. If the BG's want to hide in a mosque, we'll blow up the mosque. If they want to hide in a school and shoot rockets at us, we'll blow up the school. If they want to stand in a crowd of people, we'll shoot back. As I said, bullets aren't magical items, capable only of killing the bad guys. However, their tactics necessitate that we fight back and part and parcel of their tactics involves hiding amongst civilians.
Maybe the letter that you all write to the terrorists, expressing your regret in the deaths of a few Iraqis, you could nicely ask them to follow the rules of warfare. I don't see many posts here where the liberal left is out beating their chests demanding the blood of the terrorists.
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Rono
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Maybe because the line between who the actual terrorists are is growing fainter...
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Basilides
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Quote:
xDuckYouSuckerx said:
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Redstorm said: The armed forces have training just for these types of situations. Are you telling me that it is standar procedure to fire into a crowd if a hostile target moves into it? I call bullshit if you say yes to the previous question.
It's standard procedure to kill the bad guys. If the BG's want to hide in a mosque, we'll blow up the mosque. If they want to hide in a school and shoot rockets at us, we'll blow up the school. If they want to stand in a crowd of people, we'll shoot back. As I said, bullets aren't magical items, capable only of killing the bad guys. However, their tactics necessitate that we fight back and part and parcel of their tactics involves hiding amongst civilians.
Maybe the letter that you all write to the terrorists, expressing your regret in the deaths of a few Iraqis, you could nicely ask them to follow the rules of warfare. I don't see many posts here where the liberal left is out beating their chests demanding the blood of the terrorists.
Last year on CBC I caught an interview with an Iraqi insurgent. The interviewer asked the insurgent why so many women and children were killed in a bomb attack a week earlier. The insurgent replied that the bomber was attacking a U.S. convoy that happened to be mingling with locals (some soldiers were handing out candy to Iraqi children), and that all the innocents who were slaughtered were merely collateral damage because "the invader mixed with civilians". The insurgent even went on to say that all collateral deaths in the insurgency were "unfortunate".
The logic of warfare. Ironic, isn't it?
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    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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xDuckYouSuckerx
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5720339 - 06/06/06 07:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basilides said: Last year on CBC I caught an interview with an Iraqi insurgent. The interviewer asked the insurgent why so many women and children were killed in a bomb attack a week earlier. The insurgent replied that the bomber was attacking a U.S. convoy that happened to be mingling with locals (some soldiers were handing out candy to Iraqi children), and that all the innocents who were slaughtered were merely collateral damage because "the invader mixed with civilians". The insurgent even went on to say that all collateral deaths in the insurgency were "unfortunate".
The logic of warfare. Ironic, isn't it?
Thats just the way that things are. If you'd like to donate some land and encourage all people who want to fight to go there and fight, then thats how war will be. Until then, war will occur in the streets of populated towns and in villages where noncom's live. Until then, people who aren't active combatants will be shot by stray bullets, blown up by bombs and maimed by IED's.
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Basilides
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The least you can do is not enjoy every minute of it
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Vvellum
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yes, innocents will always be killed in war. that's why you only go to war when absolutely nececessary, not when you want to - as was the case with Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was a neo-conservative strategy, not a war of defense.
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5721521 - 06/07/06 12:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Basilides said: The least you can do is not enjoy every minute of it
Where have I said that I enjoy it? Just because someone disagrees with you doesn't mean that you can make up straw-man arguments to make the other party look bad. War sucks, most definately.
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Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Vvellum]
#5721531 - 06/07/06 12:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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bi0 said: yes, innocents will always be killed in war. that's why you only go to war when absolutely nececessary, not when you want to - as was the case with Iraq. The invasion of Iraq was a neo-conservative strategy, not a war of defense.
You brought up two points here. First, you concede that people will be killed in war and when the war is 'absolutely necessary', it's justifiable. Then you point the cause of the war, the belief that it's a neo-con strategy rather than a war of defense, as a reason for the killings being "wrong".
How, then, could you say that the soldier should be punished? If it's acknowledged that warfare does result in civilian casualities and that doesn't, per se, impy a malicious or evil intent in the minds of the attacker, then wouldn't the average soldier have to fight the same, wouldn't the bomber pilot drop his bombs the same and wouldn't the Navy crewman fire their missles the same if the war was "justified" or not? If you use your line, then you could only want the people that lead us to war to be tried for these murders.
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Vvellum
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Quote:
First, you concede that people will be killed in war and when the war is 'absolutely necessary', it's justifiable.
I never said killing innocents is justifiable, even if the war is just - only bound to happen. The point is to minimize this as much as possible, and when it does occur, punish the perpetrators of the crime to fullest extent of the law.
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Basilides
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You're talking about this incident as if it is collateral damage. It is not by the Geneva convention. A group of soldiers were hit with an IED, one of them died, all of them went ape shit and started gunning down women and children. They were not obeying orders. They were subordinates attempting to cover it up so higher command wouldn't know about it.
There are plenty of examples of what meets the standard of collateral damage in Iraq that involved small arms fire, not air strikes. A number of people, including a foreign European diplomat have been mistakened as a hostile and shot to death. This is entirely different than what is alleged to have happened in Haditha.
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Vvellum
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