|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Haditha and the Psychosis of War
#5711825 - 06/04/06 04:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.
These soldiers should get the death penalty.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
Vvellum
Stranger

Registered: 05/24/04
Posts: 10,920
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5711850 - 06/04/06 04:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
These soldiers should get the death penalty.
...in Iraq.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Vvellum]
#5712039 - 06/04/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
This event makes Lynddie England look like Mother Teresa
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5712615 - 06/04/06 08:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.
These soldiers should get the death penalty.
I don't think many people on here can understand what can go through your mind when you see your friend's guts flying everywhere. Me included. The only people that can judge them are the ones that have seen the horrors of war and seen people get blown to bits, seen their friends get killed, seen little kids get killed, and killed people themselves with no mercy.
Death penalty? What will that solve? Your one of those guys that thinks the death penalty can stop crimes of passion? Well, ok, seems to be working in the good ol USA.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (06/04/06 08:28 PM)
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: downforpot]
#5712962 - 06/04/06 09:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Sorry man, but anyone who massacres innocent people deserves to be put to death, nor should they get any sympathy. I don't care how many fucked up stuff they've seen, there are 100,000+ soldiers in Iraq who have seen fucked up stuff, and you don't see them slaughtering innocent villagers. Christ, this isn't Abu Ghraib. 24 innocent people were murdered. Making excuses for these people about stress might have worked with the Abu Ghraib scandal, but this is entirely different. What next, if a serviceman rapes an Iraqi woman are you going to "refrain judgement" because you "dont know what they've been through?". My guess is these disgraced soldiers were nothing more than thugs who viewed all Iraqis as subhuman.
And since when did you become so pro-life? You've long favored the death penalty for apprehended terrorists, did you not? A bit of a catch-22 don't you think, if you feel that one group of mass-murderers should get the death sentence while another group of mass-murderers should be spared death.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5713134 - 06/04/06 10:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: Sorry man, but anyone who massacres innocent people deserves to be put to death, nor should they get any sympathy. I don't care how many fucked up stuff they've seen, there are 100,000+ soldiers in Iraq who have seen fucked up stuff, and you don't see them slaughtering innocent villagers. Christ, this isn't Abu Ghraib. 24 innocent people were murdered. Making excuses for these people about stress might have worked with the Abu Ghraib scandal, but this is entirely different. What next, if a serviceman rapes an Iraqi woman are you going to "refrain judgement" because you "dont know what they've been through?". My guess is these disgraced soldiers were nothing more than thugs who viewed all Iraqis as subhuman.
And since when did you become so pro-life? You've long favored the death penalty for apprehended terrorists, did you not? A bit of a catch-22 don't you think, if you feel that one group of mass-murderers should get the death sentence while another group of mass-murderers should be spared death.
I guess it shows that people change, except you. You will always stick to the same rhetoric.
You seem pretty violent for a peaceful person, lol.
Are you telling me you never wanted to kill people when you are pissed off? I guess you don't know what people do when they are under stress. Oh and by the way if you think other troops don't do this when they are pissed off, well, keep thinking that maybe it will come true.
Actually lately I've been talking about converting terrorists instead of killing them but I guess you have pretty much got in your head that people don't change their points of view, good job.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (06/04/06 10:34 PM)
|
xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5713804 - 06/05/06 01:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.
* Were you there?
* Have you ever been shot at or in combat?
Well, thats why you can't understand.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5713870 - 06/05/06 02:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
This situation definately presents a quandry for a lot of people. We abhor the tactics of Islamic terrorists who seem to be outright gleeful when they murder innocent civilians. Yet, many people automatically start to make excuses for their country's soldiers when they murder innocent civilians.
Let's say that the allegations in Haditha are completely true. On the one hand, I can understand the frustrations experienced by these soldiers. They are probably in an area where 50% of the population is involved in the insurgency, helping the insurgency, or sympathetic to it. They deal with locals everyday who hate them and who probably contribute to the insurgency in some way. And, they can't do anything about these people unless they see them pick up a gun.
I remember reading an article about an occurrence in Iraq. A U.S. Army convoy was driving through an Iraqi town and they spotted a suspicous guy. They detained him and they found a cell phone detonating device on him. This guy was going to set off an IED when the convoy got to a certain spot. The U.S. Army soldiers went to the guy's house and found his mother. His mother obviously hated the American troops and their presence. She looked at the soldiers with contempt and she said nothing that was of any help. It was obvious that she probably knew something (who the local insurgent leaders were, etc..). I have a short temper and I admit that I probably would have killed that woman right on the spot. It's good that I am not a soldier because I wouldn't be able to restrain myself with people who were actively involved in or supporting hostile actions against myself and my buddies.
But, on the other hand, I cannot support going into a house and murdering children. That is completely uncalled for. I think these U.S. Marines should probably be handed over to the locals and whatever will be will be. But, I also think that we should be able to do whatever we want to Islamic terrorists.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
|
Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5714513 - 06/05/06 11:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.
LOL LOL. You ran out of ideas. "I simply don't care"
If you don't care then why the fuck do you care if they kill people? Don't care? Then don't even bother opening your mouth.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
|
The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:
Basilides said: I don't understand how a small group of servicemen can committ such a horrendous atrocity. Why? Is it gestalt psychosis? I don't understand how someone can be so filled with hate as to just massacre a bunch of innocent people.
* Were you there?
* Have you ever been shot at or in combat?
Well, thats why you can't understand.
This is terrible logic, and this question can be shot right back at you. It is in the marine code of conduct and the rules of engagement to not shoot at civilian targets, The fact that you condone the killing of innocent people like this is ridiculous and shows you dont have an inch of military experience you armchair general.
Now to answer Basilides question, Things like this happen because intense stress of combat, from seeing decomposing bodies and complete distrust and animosity towards Coalition forces by the Iraqi populace (very similar to the vietnam situation) This is also at the fault of the Commander of the squad for not enforcing military ethics.
|
xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5715060 - 06/05/06 01:44 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said: Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.
Since you weren't there, you clearly can't have the 'real picture' of what went on. Are you automatically going to side with the terrorists version of the story, simply because you hate the US troops over there?
If a IED went off, most likley it was remote detonated. If that happens and 10 out of the 40 normal-dressed Habeeb's around you start pulling out AK's and throwing grenades, you start shooting back. If some innocents get killed, well, thats war. Noone is going to try to hang the pilots that dropped ordinance on "Civilians", because they didn't intentionally kill them. People die in a war, thats the name of the game.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
|
xDuckYouSuckerx
xBannedx


Registered: 05/25/06
Posts: 1,410
Last seen: 17 years, 5 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: The_Red_Crayon]
#5715093 - 06/05/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The_Red_Crayon said: This is terrible logic, and this question can be shot right back at you.
My answers would be no to the first question and yes to the second. It's not terrible logic, if you weren't there, how can you know what they were up against? You can either believe the US Marines version of the story, or the possible-terrorists version of the story. I don't know why people are so quick to jump to assuming that the Marine Corps would lie but the average Habeeb in Iraq is an honest, upstanding person.
Quote:
It is in the marine code of conduct and the rules of engagement to not shoot at civilian targets
Thats correct, however, things happen. The Marine aviators that dropped bombs killed some civilians, I'm sure. If one habeeb is standing in a crowd holding an AK-47 spraying a convoy that just was attacked with an IED, I'm sure that he'll be shot and, quite possibly, the people around him will be shot.
Quote:
The fact that you condone the killing of innocent people like this is ridiculous
You don't seem to have a full grasp of the english language. First, you call my logic faulty when it's obviously correct, in that only the participants and those that were there will ever see "the real" truth, and second, you misuse the word fact. Show me where I stated that I condoned the killing of innocent people. You can't, right? Thats because I never did. Shit happens in war. It's not a fun place, it's not like TV where the Good Guys shoot only the bad guys. If you haven't been there, haven't faced it and don't understand the sort of mentality of being in constant combat, then you just don't understand how it works. I am against the intentional targetting of civilians. Do some civilians end up at the wrong place at the wrong time and end up getting killed? I'm sure that they do. Do I think that more civilians have been injured by IED's set up to kill Americans than were killed this day? Most definatly.
Quote:
and shows you dont have an inch of military experience you armchair general.
Pal, I've got MILES of military experience. And I wouldn't be an officer of any sort 
Quote:
Now to answer Basilides question, Things like this happen because intense stress of combat, from seeing decomposing bodies and complete distrust and animosity towards Coalition forces by the Iraqi populace (very similar to the vietnam situation) This is also at the fault of the Commander of the squad for not enforcing military ethics.
Squads don't have Commanders, most exaulted military master. If you were on a convoy and a IED went off, then you saw a bunch of guys pull out AK's and start shooting at you, you'd shoot back. Would you hit every time? Doubtful. Would your bullets know that you missed and disintegrate before they hit a civilian? Negative. Would you maybe cause some civilian injuries? Possibly. Thats just how war works. If these Marines intentionally murdered civilians, then they should be tried. But I Think that for a bunch of shrooming hippies to sit back and dictate how wars run is a bit of a stretch.
-------------------- Unions are the bastions of the mediocre. - luvdemshrooms
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
|
Did 10 Habeebs pull out grenades and machine guns? I seemed to have missed that part when I read coverage on the incident.
My understanding was that a group of soldiers went apeshit when one of their buddies was killed by an IED.
|
The_Red_Crayon
Exposer of Truth


Registered: 08/13/03
Posts: 13,673
Loc: Smokey Mtns. TN
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
My answers would be no to the first question and yes to the second. It's not terrible logic, if you weren't there, how can you know what they were up against? You can either believe the US Marines version of the story, or the possible-terrorists version of the story. I don't know why people are so quick to jump to assuming that the Marine Corps would lie but the average Habeeb in Iraq is an honest, upstanding person.
Ah so the entire people in the village are potential terrorists, including women and children, and the fact that our troops cant even trust a civilian populace that we are supposed to be helping. Wow history sure does repeat itself. Your entire argument is a dichotomy.
Quote:
Thats correct, however, things happen. The Marine aviators that dropped bombs killed some civilians, I'm sure. If one habeeb is standing in a crowd holding an AK-47 spraying a convoy that just was attacked with an IED, I'm sure that he'll be shot and, quite possibly, the people around him will be shot.
Sure it happens a lot (Dresden,Yokohoma,Operation Pheonix) but when your fighting a occupational war, in an effort to garner support from the civilian population so we can put forth a transitional government when Iraqi's see the bodies of children and women and everyone in the village pointing at the marines, Do you honestly think the entire village are terrorists, Do you honestly think the Iraqi's are going to believe the Marines or the Iraqi Villagers, Do you think the Iraqi civilian populace watch american media. This shit happened in November i remembered the unedited video when it came out then.
Quote:
Pal, I've got MILES of military experience. And I wouldn't be an officer of any sort
Divulge because you sure seem uneducated.
Quote:
Squads don't have Commanders, most exaulted military master
nice use of semantics, you get my point.
Quote:
Would you hit every time? Doubtful. Would your bullets know that you missed and disintegrate before they hit a civilian? Negative. Would you maybe cause some civilian injuries? Possibly. Thats just how war works. If these Marines intentionally murdered civilians, then they should be tried. But I Think that for a bunch of shrooming hippies to sit back and dictate how wars run is a bit of a stretch.
How does this have absolutely anything to do with the Haditha incident, Do you even know the official story? Your just ranting off on psychobabble, Shrooming hippies? Your a nutcase.
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
|
Quote:
xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:
Basilides said: Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.
Since you weren't there, you clearly can't have the 'real picture' of what went on. Are you automatically going to side with the terrorists version of the story, simply because you hate the US troops over there?
If a IED went off, most likley it was remote detonated. If that happens and 10 out of the 40 normal-dressed Habeeb's around you start pulling out AK's and throwing grenades, you start shooting back. If some innocents get killed, well, thats war. Noone is going to try to hang the pilots that dropped ordinance on "Civilians", because they didn't intentionally kill them. People die in a war, thats the name of the game.
Awww, the poor war criminals.
Again, I don't care. Death is what they've sowed. The fact that you're making excuses for them is somewhat reprehensible. "People die in war" - this is the logic of suicide bombers when they notice a mother with several babes in the seconds before they detonate themselves.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
Edited by Basilides (06/05/06 02:25 PM)
|
downforpot
Stranger

Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5715260 - 06/05/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Basilides said:
Quote:
xDuckYouSuckerx said:
Quote:
Basilides said: Hey, I don't deny that these soldiers might have been under stress - I simply don't care. Hang em.
Since you weren't there, you clearly can't have the 'real picture' of what went on. Are you automatically going to side with the terrorists version of the story, simply because you hate the US troops over there?
If a IED went off, most likley it was remote detonated. If that happens and 10 out of the 40 normal-dressed Habeeb's around you start pulling out AK's and throwing grenades, you start shooting back. If some innocents get killed, well, thats war. Noone is going to try to hang the pilots that dropped ordinance on "Civilians", because they didn't intentionally kill them. People die in a war, thats the name of the game.
Awww, the poor war criminals.
Again, I don't care. Death is what they've sowed. The fact that you're making excuses for them is somewhat reprehensible. "People die in war" - this is the logic of suicide bombers when they notice a mother with several babes in the seconds before they detonate themselves.
Running out of ideas again? "I don't care" LOL. Apparently the soldiers didn't care either, lol. Good logic.
Oh by the way if you haven't been keeping up with the current events.... commanders are keeping soldiers on prozac in the field... basically they are keeping mentally unstable soldiers already on prozac, just waiting to blow up and slaughter people.
http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1002502435
So you ask why people could do such a thing? Why would soldiers that come to USA end up killing their families? WHY?!?!?! TELL ME?!?! Why would a soldier that comes back to USA kill his wife??!?!!?
http://www.courttv.com/news/2005/0805/soldier_ap.html
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25 "And I don't care if he was handcuffed Then shot in his head All I know is dead bodies Can't fuck with me again"
Edited by downforpot (06/05/06 02:27 PM)
|
Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 7,059
Loc: Crown and Heart
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: downforpot]
#5715280 - 06/05/06 02:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
I simply don't accept the "stress of war" theory as an excuse. While we're at it, why don't we give Hamas some leniency because of the "stress of occupation"? You're defending mass murderers, plain and simple. Mass murderers, whether U.S. servicemen or cladestine fanatics, deserve nothing short of extermination from this planet.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
Loc: Fractallife's gym
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: Basilides]
#5715716 - 06/05/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Well seeing as nobody here knows anything about what actually happened there I would say that the imposition of the death sentence on the soldiers might be a tad premature
--------------------
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
Last seen: 3 months, 11 days
|
Re: Haditha and the Psychosis of War [Re: zappaisgod]
#5715728 - 06/05/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|

Especially since most likely half of these same people were crying for that sucmfuck gangbanger to not be put to death earlier this year. Double standards a little?
|
|