|
mr_kite
The Watcher


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
one for the christian literalists
#5711195 - 06/04/06 01:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
...And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Exodus 3:8
Is this "true"? ie was the land literally flowing with milk and honey?
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom... John 2
Is this "true"? ie did Jesus actually turn the water into wine?
If so, how do you differentiate between intended metaphor and literal truth? I guess most Christians would say that the first is metaphor and the second a literal miracle. I myself can't see it.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
|
OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711214 - 06/04/06 01:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
So some see it like that, you see it like you've described, all see things differently, what's your point?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
|
mr_kite
The Watcher


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
#5711217 - 06/04/06 01:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
My point is that ...And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Exodus 3:8
Is this "true"? ie was the land literally flowing with milk and honey?
Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the governor of the feast. And they bare it. When the ruler of the feast had tasted the water that was made wine, and knew not whence it was: (but the servants which drew the water knew;) the governor of the feast called the bridegroom... John 2
Is this "true"? ie did Jesus actually turn the water into wine?
If so, how do you differentiate between intended metaphor and literal truth? I guess most Christians would say that the first is metaphor and the second a literal miracle. I myself can't see it.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
|
Telepylus
Babyman


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711307 - 06/04/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
any person who tries to tell you they are holy or enlightened yet they refuse to breathe the full proper amount of spirit into words of holy documents-
they are liars.
when you read a holy document, like the bible, you won't understand it unless you take each word, and their position to one another and extract the full range of all possible meanings inherent to those set of words- literally, metaphorically, symbolically, ironically, paradoxically, etc...
you can't digest religious liturgy if you refuse to read the words at hand.
like milk & honey for example these words and this phrase mean many things, all of which are true. if the prophets had found some manner in which the words weren't true, they would've used other words instead.
milk is the cream of life passed through womanhood hathoor, and the venus love honey comes from bees, the hive mind under one queen spirit, the honey cures disease, and purifies the garden from demons.
if you ever meet a man who says that the land was actually flowing with rivers of milk and honey. then you're an idiot yourself if you try to communicate with him, because he's insane. i'm not sure what a "christian literalist" is, but if it's a person who can't read into scripture, they know nothing about christ. christ is the word, the logos, who opens the pathways of insight into the true nature of things, beneath the surface into the spirit.
i think it is safe to say that "most christians" really don't know anything about christ at all, but you can't really blame them, it's the church that has everybody confused.
water into wine means so many things, we could go on for 10 pages just moving in and out between Water/Wine. i don't want to get into that right now.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711325 - 06/04/06 01:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mr_kite said: ...And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites.
It sounds to me as though Israel has no historical claim that Israel is "their" land. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711327 - 06/04/06 01:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
"Is this "true"? ie was the land literally flowing with milk and honey?"
So, did they have biscuits to put this honey on?
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5711345 - 06/04/06 01:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: So, did they have biscuits to put this honey on?
Nah, you had to lick the honey off of the women's breasts...
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5711347 - 06/04/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
mmmm....biscuits with honey.
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711354 - 06/04/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mr_kite said: ...And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; unto the place of the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Amorites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites. Exodus 3:8
Is this "true"? ie was the land literally flowing with milk and honey?
Yes, it is definitely true.
The literal interpretation is simply that it was an area that contained a lot of cows and a lot of bees. You've proposed no real dilemna here. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711359 - 06/04/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
mr_kite said: Is this "true"? ie did Jesus actually turn the water into wine?
Didn't you see that episode of South Park?
"All right.. now, turn around. Turn around." 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
mr_kite
The Watcher


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Telepylus]
#5711412 - 06/04/06 02:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Telepylus said: any person who tries to tell you they are holy or enlightened yet they refuse to breathe the full proper amount of spirit into words of holy documents-
they are liars.
when you read a holy document, like the bible, you won't understand it unless you take each word, and their position to one another and extract the full range of all possible meanings inherent to those set of words- literally, metaphorically, symbolically, ironically, paradoxically, etc...
you can't digest religious liturgy if you refuse to read the words at hand.
like milk & honey for example these words and this phrase mean many things, all of which are true. if the prophets had found some manner in which the words weren't true, they would've used other words instead.
milk is the cream of life passed through womanhood hathoor, and the venus love honey comes from bees, the hive mind under one queen spirit, the honey cures disease, and purifies the garden from demons.
if you ever meet a man who says that the land was actually flowing with rivers of milk and honey. then you're an idiot yourself if you try to communicate with him, because he's insane. i'm not sure what a "christian literalist" is, but if it's a person who can't read into scripture, they know nothing about christ. christ is the word, the logos, who opens the pathways of insight into the true nature of things, beneath the surface into the spirit.
i think it is safe to say that "most christians" really don't know anything about christ at all, but you can't really blame them, it's the church that has everybody confused.
water into wine means so many things, we could go on for 10 pages just moving in and out between Water/Wine. i don't want to get into that right now.
I agree with most of what you say.
My question was about literal interpretation, and clearly you don't think like that. Which I think is great. Of course it's fairly obvious to most people that the land wasn't flowing with milk and honey, but I'm interested in how some people pick and choose with literal/metaphorical interpretations of bible verse. What's their reasoning?
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711420 - 06/04/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
So explain to me why a land with extremely prolific cows and bees is so improbable. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
mr_kite
The Watcher


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: fireworks_god]
#5711434 - 06/04/06 02:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
fireworks_god said: So explain to me why a land with extremely prolific cows and bees is so improbable. 
I think the word "flowing" is improbable. "smattered" or "lightly doused" may be more realistic..
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711439 - 06/04/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
No, it means that the land was flowing with milk and honey, not that the milk and honey was flowing on the land.
Like, see, the land was flowing itself, like water in a river (it must have been lava at this point?), and there was milk and honey that was flowing with it... so it was all like one big river of land, milk, and honey.

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
mr_kite
The Watcher


Registered: 09/16/02
Posts: 2,577
Loc: shambhala
Last seen: 11 years, 6 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: fireworks_god]
#5711456 - 06/04/06 02:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
im gonna have to rethink my whole belief system.
-------------------- let yourself be silently drawn by the stronger pull of what you really love
|
Telepylus
Babyman


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5711486 - 06/04/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
the land is the cereal bowl for the divine breakfast with organic milk and wildflower honey flowin' some jews thrown in like almonds to make it extra good
|
fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Telepylus]
#5711511 - 06/04/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Telepylus said: some jews thrown in like almonds to make it extra good
Bake in the oven for awhile for them to be extra crispy?

 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
|
Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Veritas]
#5711566 - 06/04/06 03:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
mmmmmm....breasts with honey
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5711574 - 06/04/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Huehuecoyotl said: "Is this "true"? ie was the land literally flowing with milk and honey?"
So, did they have biscuits to put this honey on?
No biscuts. If the land was flowing with gravy then there would be biscuts. The land must have had bunches of oats, that is how "Honey bunches of Oats" came into being.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
|
Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Icelander]
#5711595 - 06/04/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
If it was flowing did that mean it was in rivers and creeks. If it did what kind of fish swim in milk and honey? They might be good to eat.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
#5711936 - 06/04/06 05:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
|
Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Veritas]
#5711984 - 06/04/06 05:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Sweedish fish!
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Xanthas]
#5711992 - 06/04/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Naturally! What else would swim in milk and honey?
|
Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Veritas]
#5712102 - 06/04/06 05:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Gorgeous naked women?
|
Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Viveka]
#5712110 - 06/04/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
In your personal land of milk and honey, you can have the Victoria's Secret models performing synchronized swim routines.
|
kotik
fuckingsuperhero


Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: mr_kite]
#5712564 - 06/04/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Is this "true"? ie did Jesus actually turn the water into wine?
according to catholic tradition, yes that is very true, and in fact priests do it at every mass.
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
|
Viveka
refutation bias


Registered: 10/21/02
Posts: 4,061
Last seen: 7 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: Veritas]
#5712686 - 06/04/06 08:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
Oh boy! My very own pool of pleasure. Or river of pleasure or whatever.
|
PeteSphagnum
Stranger
Registered: 01/30/06
Posts: 6
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: kotik]
#5713172 - 06/04/06 10:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
You don't really want us to believe that priests turn water to wine do you? Their just normal guys, with fancy robes. They got beat up in high school, worked at CVS and now they have a gig as the middle man between God and humanity while taking advantage of 6 year old boys in their spare time (ok maybe not all of them)
The thing that gets me about literal interpretation of the bible is virgin birth. What kind of evidence could one present to someone that would make them buy such an illogical story?
|
Telepylus
Babyman


Registered: 05/22/06
Posts: 996
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
|
Re: one for the christian literalists [Re: PeteSphagnum]
#5713246 - 06/04/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
|
|
some campers, drinking water from the fresh stream... some stranger comes out of the woods and says hello, and has some water too
they start talking and the stuff this guy is saying is like woa...heavy it's like the guy is all high on some killer LSD or something he's glowin' man, saying things that just make everything so simple our eyes seemed to open so we could even see things brighter we felt like we were high from talkin' to this guy
a contact high
water to wine
--------------------
Law of Love
|
|