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RandalFlagg
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Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq?
#5707187 - 06/03/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I do. I have this comfortable life and my fellow Americans are getting picked off in a warzone. Granted, I don't think they should be there but they are. It disgusts me that we live comfortable lives while others fight for us.
I have many ambivalent feelings about the whole situation. Part of me wants to be over there. But, another part of me does not want to participate in a military endeavor that I disagree with.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707193 - 06/03/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm not needed in iraq... neither are you. No sense in feeling guilty because you're not in a peice-of-shit country full of people who want to saw your head off with a steak knife and broadcast it on TV.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Koala Koolio
TTAGGGTTAGGGTTAGGGTTAGGG

Registered: 01/07/04
Posts: 7,752
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707198 - 06/03/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It disgusts me that I'm living a comfortable life while people are dying *anywhere*. Our troops, in Iraq, yes. But, not nearly to the degree as those who are placed into their situations without choice. I don't like to see americans dying, but there are problems all over the world, and people who did nothing to fall into helpless situations.
-------------------- You're not like the others. You like the same things I do. Wax paper, boiled football leather... dog breath. We're not hitch-hiking anymore, we're riding!
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evolprim
human


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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707199 - 06/03/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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There's no draft, they go there voluntarily.
Since your life is very comfortable and since you presumabley would like to make a difference in the lives of others you should try volunteering somewhere or sending money to 3rd world countries.
if you feel terribly guilty about not being in iraq, then go, but take a non-combat position
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Konnrade]
#5707202 - 06/03/06 11:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: I'm not needed in iraq... neither are you. No sense in feeling guilty because you're not in a peice-of-shit country full of people who want to saw your head off with a steak knife and broadcast it on TV.
That's another big reason that I do not have a desire to participate in the Iraq endeavor. The whole exercise has turned from supposedly being about "self-defense" from WMD's to nation-building. I do not support using American money or lives to nation build; especially in a country so fucked up that they can't get their own shit together.
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PoopShooter
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Konnrade]
#5707215 - 06/03/06 11:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Come on, you make it sound like everyone is Iraq is a serial killer...The majority of those problems didn't start until the US invaded.
No, I'm not guilty about not being in Iraq. The soldiers aren't fighting FOR us. They aren't fighting to protect us anyway. They are fighting in our name, but I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. I'm not quite sure why you would feel any worse for the American's than you do the Iraqis (innocent and guilty alike) that we are killing. Just because you have more in common? Isn't the value of human life the same? Even those of cultures that you don't understand?
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: evolprim]
#5707224 - 06/03/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
evolprim said: There's no draft, they go there voluntarily.
True.
Quote:
evolprim said: Since your life is very comfortable and since you presumabley would like to make a difference in the lives of others you should try volunteering somewhere or sending money to 3rd world countries.
I donate to charity often. I usually donate to causes that benefit Americans. When there is a terrible catastrophe (the Indian Ocean tsunami for example) I will donate to foreigners.
Quote:
evolprim said: if you feel terribly guilty about not being in iraq, then go, but take a non-combat position
What do you suggest?
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707228 - 06/03/06 11:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, I do not feel the least bit guilty that I am not halfway across the world, killing innocent people in the name of "freedom and democracy".
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707235 - 06/03/06 11:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PoopShooter said: I'm not quite sure why you would feel any worse for the American's than you do the Iraqis (innocent and guilty alike) that we are killing. Just because you have more in common? Isn't the value of human life the same? Even those of cultures that you don't understand?
It is common for most people to feel a kinship with their countrymen. Therefore, it is common for many people to value the lives of their fellow countrymen over those of foreigners.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707239 - 06/03/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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And that's where we've gone terribly, terribly wrong.
Quote:
The world is my country, all mankind are my brethren, and to do good is my religion. Thomas Paine US patriot & political philosopher (1737 - 1809)
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707241 - 06/03/06 11:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: No, I do not feel the least bit guilty that I am not halfway across the world, killing innocent people in the name of "freedom and democracy".
I would gander to say that most of the people dying from American actions are enemy combatants, but undoubtedly a significant amount of Iraqi civilians have died.
I don't feel guilty that I am not participating in the endeavor. I feel guilty that there are Americans who are fighting and I am not.
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Shroomism
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707243 - 06/03/06 11:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's their choice. Do you feel guilty that people are dying from starvation as well? Or those dying from alcohol poisoning? What about the heroin junkie?
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707246 - 06/03/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not one bit. They're not fighting to protect me. They're fighting in my name as an american. I've never been attacked. I never seen a terrorist incident. I don't beleive terrorism is a threat. They are over there for rich people to get even richer. The soldiers didn't have to enlist, they did, now they're doing what's required of them.
This uppity respect for US armed forces is getting out of control. Support our troops? Support the killing of innocent lives? No thanks. How about support a way to get these fuckers home as soon as possible and let that part of the world continue killing themselves like they have done for thousands of years.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707247 - 06/03/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: And that's where we've gone terribly, terribly wrong.
I disagree. I see nothing wrong with having an allegiance to a particular group (whether because of nationality, religion, geography, ideology, etc..). It is natural for people to "band together" and have affinity for one another because they are similar.
Now, the problems arise when one group views itself as superior and it seeks to impose their will upon another group.
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Shroomism
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707252 - 06/03/06 11:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well I agree. Nothing wrong with having an allegiance to a group, a community.
But the problem does indeed arise when one states 'ownership' over land, and seeks to conquer the communities of others. *cough*iraq*cough*
But if history has taught us anything, it is that history is doomed to repeat itself. And all empires have fallen under their own weight. The roman empire was once the greatest in the world. Now it's the American empire.
The only question in my mind. How long until it crumbles.
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PoopShooter
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707254 - 06/03/06 11:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Alright I can accept that I guess. I was just hoping it was something maybe a little more altruistic than some fraternal bond.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707256 - 06/03/06 11:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: It's their choice.
It is their choice to join. But, many do so out of a desire to serve their country which is admirable in my opinion. It is too bad that their efforts are being used in an innapropriate manner.
Quote:
Shroomism said: Do you feel guilty that people are dying from starvation as well?
Guilty? No.
If some terrible catastrophe happens which causes starvation, I will feel badly for the victims. There is a difference between feeling badly and feeling guilty. If people starve because they are too stupid to get their shit together (like in Africa), then no...I don't feel bad about that.
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Shroomism said: Or those dying from alcohol poisoning?
Nope...they do it to themselves.
Quote:
Shroomism said: What about the heroin junkie?
Nope...they do it to themselves.
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Penguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707257 - 06/03/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Didn't a lot of people who are over in Iraq sign up because of 9-11? If so, it was their choice. "They did it to themselves."
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Shroomism
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707258 - 06/03/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well the same could be said for those going to iraq and dying.. they do it to themselves. not my fault they decided to sell their lives to the US government for a "war" that no one believes in.
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kosmic_charlie
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707261 - 06/03/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: ...while others fight for us.
I don't feel as though they're over their fighting for "us". They're fighting for my government's power-hungry agenda.
Now if I lived back in 1944 I would feel guilty sitting comfortably at home while American troops stormed the beaches of Normandy in an efort to keep the Nazis from world domination. But this war? Gimme a break. Can someone please tell me what we're fighting for again?
BRING THE BOYS BACK HOME!
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Goin' where the water tastes like wine.
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avapxia
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707268 - 06/03/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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They willingly chose to sign their life away for X number of years. They knew 100% that there was a possibility of seeing combat during their service.
It pains me to see it as well, but i know that i would never make the choice to sign my will away to an entity that is known to be corrupt, deceitful, greedy, and self-serving - as all governments are. The biggest mistake people can make is that governments have the interest of the people in mind, which is certainly not the case. History has shown this time and time again.
I am not solely blaming the soldiers though, who chose to sign themselves away to murder and be murdered. The system that we live in essentially forces people into that choice. Do you really think the government wants to fund grants and promote higher education during wartime? Isn't it better that they keep the poor where they are, with no real hope of higher education? In that way, they can then run a bunch of commercials like we are seeing today where kids sign up for the Army, Marines, and so on for the purposes of higher education.
It's a sad situation. I blame the government, naturally, for nudging kids decisions in that direction. Ultimately it comes down to the individual, though.
And like someone has already said, i feel more disgusted at myself for living comfortably while someone dies every 3 seconds because of lack of water, basic sanitation, and basic medication. That disgusts me far more than my not being able to kill others for a pointless cause.
Edited by avapxia (06/03/06 12:04 PM)
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707274 - 06/03/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
McKennaDMT said: I've never been attacked. I never seen a terrorist incident. I don't beleive terrorism is a threat.
Terrorism is a threat. There are a significant amount of Muslim extremists around the world who are intently trying to kill Americans (and Westerners in general). There have been scores of attacks on Western civilians by Islamic militants.
Do they kill as much as tobacco or automobile accidents? Of course not. But, there is the possibility of massive casualties if some of these Muslims extremists succeed with their plots (which are quite real I assure you).
Quote:
McKennaDMT said: They are over there for rich people to get even richer.
I disagree. I don't agree with the Iraq war, but I do not hold the opinion that it was instigated by nefarious businessmen and corporations.
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McKennaDMT said: This uppity respect for US armed forces is getting out of control.
I disagree. Anybody who puts their ass on the line deserves respect in my book.
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McKennaDMT said: Support the killing of innocent lives? No thanks.
As I said before, innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq because of American actions. But, I think that American actions overwhelmingly have targeted actual combatants.
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McKennaDMT said: How about support a way to get these fuckers home as soon as possible and let that part of the world continue killing themselves like they have done for thousands of years.
I can agree with that. I say we leave and let that country rot.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707278 - 06/03/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: But the problem does indeed arise when one states 'ownership' over land, and seeks to conquer the communities of others. *cough*iraq*cough*
I don't think the American military planners and strategists ever wanted to "conquer". But, did they want a friendly Iraqi government in place that would host U.S. military bases, act as a counterweight to Iran, and keep the oil flowing? Of course.
Quote:
Shroomism said: But if history has taught us anything, it is that history is doomed to repeat itself. And all empires have fallen under their own weight. The roman empire was once the greatest in the world. Now it's the American empire.
True. All empires crumble.
Edited by RandalFlagg (06/03/06 01:51 PM)
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Penguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707280 - 06/03/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are you afraid of being attacked by a terrorist?
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707288 - 06/03/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomism said: Well the same could be said for those going to iraq and dying.. they do it to themselves. not my fault they decided to sell their lives to the US government for a "war" that no one believes in.
It could be argued that American soldiers "do it to themselves". They willingly sign up knowing that they will probably end up in a combat zone. However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.
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avapxia
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707291 - 06/03/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.
Why?!
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dudefromaz
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707296 - 06/03/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would go, but does the army or whatever let you shroom while your there?
-------------------- Remember, the best drug, is a natural drug..... Peace, Fratirnityishly, Smoke Da Stuff, Special Chocolate
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707304 - 06/03/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
avapxia said:
Quote:
However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.
Why?!
Exactly. I think you've seen too many hollywood war movies.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707305 - 06/03/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
avapxia said: but i know that i would never make the choice to sign my will away to an entity that is known to be corrupt, deceitful, greedy, and self-serving - as all governments are. The biggest mistake people can make is that governments have the interest of the people in mind, which is certainly not the case. History has shown this time and time again.
I distrust governments as well.
Quote:
avapxia said: Do you really think the government wants to fund grants and promote higher education during wartime?
Grants for post-secondary educational institutions are still in place (as are no-interest loans). I go to a technical school and just a few days ago everybody was talking about all the grant money they just got.
Quote:
avapxia said: Isn't it better that they keep the poor where they are, with no real hope of higher education?
The poor in America are the recipients of extensive handouts for schooling and for living expenses in general. I don't buy (and never have bought) the fallacious argument that the poor are "kept down".
Quote:
avapxia said: And like someone has already said, i feel more disgusted at myself for living comfortably while someone dies every 3 seconds because of lack of water, basic sanitation, and basic medication.
Strangely, I feel very little emotion for people who cannot get their shit together. If some backward country is full of starving people while warlords fight over land (and it's been that way for a thousand years) I have the opinion that they should wallow in their own shit.
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Penguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707308 - 06/03/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yet you support troops who are trying to "liberate" them...
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707313 - 06/03/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
McKennaDMT said: Are you afraid of being attacked by a terrorist?
As far as my individual safety goes, I am not afraid in my present location because I live in a small city. However, if some catastrophic attack were to cause social discord then I would probably be personally affected.
If I was in a heavily populated city (New York City for example) or if I was in a foreign country that is known to have many people sympathetic to Islamic extremists...then yes I would be afraid of terrorism.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707317 - 06/03/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
avapxia said:
Quote:
However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.
Why?!
A person who risks their own life to defend their country is deserving of respect in my opinion.
Edited by RandalFlagg (06/03/06 12:22 PM)
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707321 - 06/03/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
McKennaDMT said: Yet you support troops who are trying to "liberate" them...
I support the troops but I do not support how they are being used.
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PoopShooter
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707327 - 06/03/06 12:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Even Muslims who risk their lives for their religious beliefs? You must respect them too, right?
Slightly unrelated: http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ This is a blog of a young Iraqi women, who, before the invasion, was working in IT at a large company. It's a really interesting inside look into what's going on in Baghdad...It might be biased, but it really gives paints an amazing picture of what the people over there are going through...
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Penguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707334 - 06/03/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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"I happen to be in the unenviable position of being for the war, but against the troops." -- Bill Hicks
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707336 - 06/03/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PoopShooter said: Even Muslims who risk their lives for their religious beliefs? You must respect them too, right?
I can respect the ones that fight properly. When they target American soldiers, I certainly don't like it but I can understand it. However, I cannot fathom their proclivity for targeting innocent civilians in a malicious manner.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707339 - 06/03/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PoopShooter said: Come on, you make it sound like everyone is Iraq is a serial killer...The majority of those problems didn't start until the US invaded.
No, I'm not guilty about not being in Iraq. The soldiers aren't fighting FOR us. They aren't fighting to protect us anyway. They are fighting in our name, but I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. I'm not quite sure why you would feel any worse for the American's than you do the Iraqis (innocent and guilty alike) that we are killing. Just because you have more in common? Isn't the value of human life the same? Even those of cultures that you don't understand?
I was just commenting on those that are actively trying to maim and kill american soldiers. The uniform tends to attract all sorts of inhuman bastards who seem to rather enjoy going apeshit on someone.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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Penguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Konnrade]
#5707343 - 06/03/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'm glad that I live in a country that allows me to have such a beautiful open discussion such as this...
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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avapxia
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707354 - 06/03/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
The poor in America are the recipients of extensive handouts for schooling and for living expenses in general. I don't buy (and never have bought) the fallacious argument that the poor are "kept down".
http://streaming.americanprogress.org/ThinkProgress/2006/busheducation012306.320.240.mov.html
My girlfriend is an example of someone who has been "kept down." Now typically i don't like using anecdotal arguments, but since you did i'll just use her as an example. She did very well in high school, and got a decent amount of scholarships and grants. She was going to a community college with that money. Bush's recent cuts to the grant program has now left her without any grants whatsoever. Her parents make less than $30,000 a year (both parents work, and her father has a 4-year degree from Texas A&M).
The government IS cutting funding for higher education. This is obviously the case - STATISTICALLY. It is a fact, you can't deny it.
http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/01/25/bush_back_to_the_bubble.php
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I think what we did was reform the student loan program. We are not cutting money out of it. In other words, people aren't going to be cut off the program. We're just making sure it works better as part of the reconciliation package I think she's talking about. We are saving money in the student loan program because it's inefficient.
Got that wrong. Secreted in the "reconciliation package" that the administration and the Republican majority in Congress are pushing is a staggering $12.7 billion cut in student loan programs%u2014the largest cut in history.
That bulk of that cut will be paid in the form of higher interest rates and fees paid by students and their parents. On average, students will face an additional $2,000 in interest payments; parents an additional $3,000.
As for private lenders that provide student loans%u2014they'll make out just fine. Rather than significantly cutting subsidies to private lenders, Rep. John Boehner%u2014an architect of this legislation and a candidate for House majority leader%u2014targeted working families for the cuts. As The Chronicle of Higher Education reports, Boehner met in December with private student lenders, who contribute handsomely to his campaigns, and said: "Relax. Stay calm. At the end of the day, I believe you'll be at least satisfied, or even perhaps happy. Know that I have all of you in my two trusted hands."
Those "trusted hands" don't protect students like Tiffany Cooper, or their parents. An additional $2,000 in costs doesn't seem like much to legislators like Boehner, who collect more in individual checks from well-heeled contributors. But for working families struggling to make ends meet, it cruelly adds to already growing burdens. College tuitions have gone up a staggering 40 percent in the last five years. State support for public universities has been cut. The Republican Congress, violating a promise Bush made while campaigning, has frozen maximum Pell Grants at the same level for the fourth straight year. The vast majority of students now borrow to help finance college. The average loan burden a student carries upon graduation is more than $19,000. Students from working families have little choice but to pile up debt, even while working part-time and piecing together grant opportunities.
Already, the burden of paying for college is closing the doors of higher education to deserving students. Most public colleges now report six-year rather than four-year graduation rates, because so many students have to drop out and work for a time to make ends meet.
Take a look around, it is obvious. Why would the government want kids to go to college when they desperately need them in the military? We have a war in Iraq, we are still in Afghanistan, and there is an impending war with Iran on the horizon. Why would the government want to direct kids AWAY from joining the military? What is the bigger priority? How many ads do you see encouraging kids to go to college versus military ads?
The No Child Left Behind Act has changed the rules so that all public schools must allow military recruiters into their school just as they do higher education recruiters. The same act also forces schools to give out personal contact information of students to military recruiters if they request. The child and school cannot refuse this, only the parents can.
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A person who risks their own life to defend their country is deserving of respect in my opinion.
It is good to know that you respect Nazi's for "defending their country."
That is a very silly statement. People who sign themselves away are essentially saying "I swear to kill anyone you tell me to, regardless of the moral implications." That is the contract they sign.
Seems more foolish than wise, and certainly is no demand for respect from anyone with half a critical mind.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707355 - 06/03/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't worry...the Secret Service is currently on the way over to your place to pick you up for "questioning".
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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707356 - 06/03/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah man, but think of their resolve. They are fully committed to their actions, to the point that they are willing to kill their own countrymen for it! NOW THAT IS RESOLVE. TRUE WARRIOR SPIRIT. If that isn't to be respected, I don't know what is.
Besides you've heard of this , right?
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avapxia
Stranger


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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707364 - 06/03/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
McKennaDMT said: I'm glad that I live in a country that allows me to have such a beautiful open discussion such as this...
That is basic. That should be expected. The government wants to point to these basic rights and say "Look, look! Aren't we great for letting you use your brain and talk it out with other individuals? Aren't we the greatest?"
The truth is that governments never grant rights - governments ONLY take away rights. Governments pick and choose which rights you can and cannot practice without punishment, but you have these rights regardless of what they say.
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707365 - 06/03/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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No..... there are some things worth dying for, but Iraqi oil is not one of them.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707373 - 06/03/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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At the end of the vietnam war, a lot of soldiers coming home were met by half-baked protestors who thought that they should boo and hiss and deride soldiers because they didn't like what the war was about.
Those people were too self-righteous to realize that the soldiers understood more about the horrors of the war than the comfy, spoiled protesters could have imagined. They were acting like pricks to people who deserved respect.
Anyone who targets soldiers because they don't like the war that they were serving in is a jackass. Soldiers don't have a choice once they've enlisted. You do what you're told, or you go to leavenworth.
Wars aren't started by soldiers, they are started by politicians. Show respect for soldiers, they had good intentions for enlisting. It might be easier to whine and bitch about soldiers (who are an easy target), but it's also pathetic.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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avapxia
Stranger


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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Burke Dennings]
#5707377 - 06/03/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Burke Dennings said: No..... there are some things worth dying for, but Iraqi oil is not one of them.
I agree. Plenty of things worth dying for, but "protecting your government" is never one of those things. The government is a small minority of people (think about how many people are in congress), who decide what the majority can and cannot do, as well as dick around in other countries.
It's the dicking around that has caused this problem with "terrorism" as it is.
Why would you ever fight for a small minority of rulemakers? They want you to fight so that they can stay in power, that's it. "Terrorists" do not want to kill me - that isn't their real goal. Their goal is to change the American GOVERNMENT - specifically our interactions in Israel. They are willing to kill me and many other civilians in order to get the message across to the government (which of course i disagree with), but they do not wish to kill civilians for absolutely no reason.
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avapxia
Stranger


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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Konnrade]
#5707385 - 06/03/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: At the end of the vietnam war, a lot of soldiers coming home were met by half-baked protestors who thought that they should boo and hiss and deride soldiers because they didn't like what the war was about.
Those people were too self-righteous to realize that the soldiers understood more about the horrors of the war than the comfy, spoiled protesters could have imagined. They were acting like pricks to people who deserved respect.
Anyone who targets soldiers because they don't like the war that they were serving in is a jackass. Soldiers don't have a choice once they've enlisted. You do what you're told, or you go to leavenworth.
Wars aren't started by soldiers, they are started by politicians. Show respect for soldiers, they had good intentions for enlisting. It might be easier to whine and bitch about soldiers (who are an easy target), but it's also pathetic.
It's not the fact that i disagree with the war that i dissaprove of soldiers, it is the fact that they chose to sign up to kill or be killed in order to support a government AT ALL. It is a completely different issue from the war. I don't walk up to random soldiers on the street and start yelling at them - in the same way, i don't walk up to others whose lifestyle i may disagree with and just start arguing. What people choose is their own choice, but i don't have to approve of it. For the most part, i silently disapprove, but the discussion took that direction and i felt led to explain myself.
If we are talking about the Iraq War specifically, of course i do not blame the soldiers. They are the victims in that case.
It would be especially stupid to shun a soldier who served in Vietnam because of the fact that the war was dependent on a draft.
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707387 - 06/03/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe I'm unnatural or whatever, but I feel absolutely no allegience to any group or community. There is no such thing as a great monolithic "American" culture; that's just an abstract idea invented by people with an agenda and a penchant for rhetoric. People who join the military, by and large, do so out of desperation. They tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and they see joining the military as a means of moving up in the world. Many of them fail to consider that the military extends all these benefits because the job of a soldier is a fucking dangerous one. When in your new career you are issued a shiny helmet and a gun, you can take that as an indication that there's a pretty solid element of risk involved.
So do I feel guilty that I chose a different path? Not really. I recognize that luck has afforded me a relatively privileged backgroud, but I still have lots of work ahead of me to get where I want to be in life. The option of joining the military is always in front of me, but I don't choose it because to me it's just not worth handing over my freedom and autonomy to a military-industrial complex who will send me to certain death for the most cynical of reasons. The Iraq war is a prime example of such. This war was based on vulgar manipulation of this quasi-patriotic post-9/11 hysteria that, I'm sorry to say, does not bring a proud lump to my throat or a tear to my eye. It does not make me proud to be an American, and it does not make me proud of "our" troops, who were pitifully suckered into this charade by their puppetmasters. They are not heroes so much as they are victims.
Even more tragic is the plight of all the innocent people who are mixed up in all this shit. Sorry, but I just can't begrudge somebody for picking up a weapon and defending their home. If Iraqis invaded the US, they would meet a great force of rednecks armed with pickup trucks and an assorment of firearms, and the Ohio Valley would never be taken. They too would probably label this Hayseed Militia as "enemy combatants", and perhaps it is true that they are, but that says nothing as to the justification of their actions. This Hayseed Militia (aka Corncob Contingent), faced with the prospect of being occupied by an aggressive foreign element, has the option of defending themselves by force or laying down and accepting their fate. I can only guess that a good proportion of Americans out in these parts would choose the former. How is it different in Iraq, aside from the roles being reversed? How do we celebrate the Resistance movement in France against the Germans but condemn the Iraqis doing the same thing against us?
An' another thing: every American in Iraq right now is there because they made a choice to surrender their lives to the government. Iraqi civilians made no such choice; the situation was thrust upon them. So when an Iraqi dies due to circumstances brought on by our occupation, it is infinitely more tragic than the death of an American serviceman who, one way or another, chose to be there.
I already did my part in this debacle. I was against this fucking war before it even started. For that I, as were others with similar opinions, was labeled unpatriotic, a traitor, for opposing Our Great Leader. Well fine then, fuck the Leader, fuck the Cause, and fuck the War. I feel no guilt or undue allegience to those who were suckered into partaking in this moral abomination, or to the asshole in Texas who dreamed it up.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707392 - 06/03/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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avapxia said: College tuitions have gone up a staggering 40 percent in the last five years.
The vast majority of students now borrow to help finance college.
Yep. College (along with health-care) is getting more expensive.
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avapxia said: Most public colleges now report six-year rather than four-year graduation rates, because so many students have to drop out and work for a time to make ends meet.
Most of these six year graduates are taking so long to graduate not because of finances but because universities are letting morons and goof-offs in.
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avapxia said: The government IS cutting funding for higher education. This is obviously the case - STATISTICALLY. It is a fact, you can't deny it.
Bush's recent cuts to the grant program has now left her without any grants whatsoever.
I do remember seeing some articles about how some education funding has been cut at the federal level. However, there is still significant education funding at both the state and at the federal level. In my state, students get grants from the state and no-interest or low-interest loans from the federal government. Pell grants from the federal government still exist as well. Also, all public universities are given money by the state.
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avapxia said: My girlfriend is an example of someone who has been "kept down."
She's being kept down because she isn't being handed free money?
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avapxia said: Take a look around, it is obvious. Why would the government want kids to go to college when they desperately need them in the military?
I do not believe that there is some nefarious plot to deny educational handouts in order to get kids to go to the military. This cutting of educational benefits is in direct response to the massive federal budget deficit. We are in the red and the budget people trimmed some expenditures.
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avapxia said: The No Child Left Behind Act has changed the rules so that all public schools must allow military recruiters into their school just as they do higher education recruiters. The same act also forces schools to give out personal contact information of students to military recruiters if they request. The child and school cannot refuse this, only the parents can.
I was in high school long before the No Child Left Behind act. Military recruiters came into our school, there were military posters on the walls, and recruiters called my house. The No Child Left Behind act has not increased military recruitment in high schools. It has always existed.
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avapxia said: It is good to know that you respect Nazi's for "defending their country."
I can respect the German soldier who fought for his country. I cannot respect the German soldier that was involved in atrocities nor can I respect the Nazi leadership that instigated such terrible things.
Edited by RandalFlagg (06/03/06 12:49 PM)
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707396 - 06/03/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can respect the German soldier who fought for his country. I cannot respect the German soldier that was involved in atrocities nor can I respect the Nazi leadership who instigated such terrible things.
How does a soldier discriminate what's an atrocity and what's not, when "fighting" for his country? It's war, there are no rules...especially WW2.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707398 - 06/03/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd rather fight terrorism at home, in my own country. But I speak of the terrorism perpetuated by our own government. The only kind of terrorism I have ever experienced. If I grew up in Iraq, I would hate Americans too. Hell, I grew up in America, and I hate a lot of americans.
Have some quotes.
"It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind." Voltaire
"The real threat to our nation currently comes from within, when we begin taking away the very civil rights and civil liberty protections that made us great" -Hilary Shelton
"And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act under the disguise of fighting terrorism." - Osama bin Laden
“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.” Edward Abbey
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God." Thomas Jefferson
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." Thomas Jefferson
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." Thomas Jefferson
"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government." Thomas Jefferson
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." President George Bush
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies." George Bernard Shaw
"War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military" Georges Clemenceau
"Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes." Henry David Thoreau
"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake." Jeannette Rankin
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707400 - 06/03/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PoopShooter said: Yeah man, but think of their resolve. They are fully committed to their actions, to the point that they are willing to kill their own countrymen for it! NOW THAT IS RESOLVE. TRUE WARRIOR SPIRIT. If that isn't to be respected, I don't know what is.
That is not the warrior spirit. That is murder.
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PoopShooter said: Besides you've heard of this , right?
Yes. If those American soldiers willingly killed innocent civilians then they deserve to be punished severely.
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: quillini]
#5707401 - 06/03/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
quillini said: Maybe I'm unnatural or whatever, but I feel absolutely no allegience to any group or community. There is no such thing as a great monolithic "American" culture; that's just an abstract idea invented by people with an agenda and a penchant for rhetoric. People who join the military, by and large, do so out of desperation. They tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and they see joining the military as a means of moving up in the world. Many of them fail to consider that the military extends all these benefits because the job of a soldier is a fucking dangerous one. When in your new career you are issued a shiny helmet and a gun, you can take that as an indication that there's a pretty solid element of risk involved.
So do I feel guilty that I chose a different path? Not really. I recognize that luck has afforded me a relatively privileged backgroud, but I still have lots of work ahead of me to get where I want to be in life. The option of joining the military is always in front of me, but I don't choose it because to me it's just not worth handing over my freedom and autonomy to a military-industrial complex who will send me to certain death for the most cynical of reasons. The Iraq war is a prime example of such. This war was based on vulgar manipulation of this quasi-patriotic post-9/11 hysteria that, I'm sorry to say, does not bring a proud lump to my throat or a tear to my eye. It does not make me proud to be an American, and it does not make me proud of "our" troops, who were pitifully suckered into this charade by their puppetmasters. They are not heroes so much as they are victims.
Even more tragic is the plight of all the innocent people who are mixed up in all this shit. Sorry, but I just can't begrudge somebody for picking up a weapon and defending their home. If Iraqis invaded the US, they would meet a great force of rednecks armed with pickup trucks and an assorment of firearms, and the Ohio Valley would never be taken. They too would probably label this Hayseed Militia as "enemy combatants", and perhaps it is true that they are, but that says nothing as to the justification of their actions. This Hayseed Militia (aka Corncob Contingent), faced with the prospect of being occupied by an aggressive foreign element, has the option of defending themselves by force or laying down and accepting their fate. I can only guess that a good proportion of Americans out in these parts would choose the former. How is it different in Iraq, aside from the roles being reversed? How do we celebrate the Resistance movement in France against the Germans but condemn the Iraqis doing the same thing against us?
An' another thing: every American in Iraq right now is there because they made a choice to surrender their lives to the government. Iraqi civilians made no such choice; the situation was thrust upon them. So when an Iraqi dies due to circumstances brought on by our occupation, it is infinitely more tragic than the death of an American serviceman who, one way or another, chose to be there.
I already did my part in this debacle. I was against this fucking war before it even started. For that I, as were others with similar opinions, was labeled unpatriotic, a traitor, for opposing Our Great Leader. Well fine then, fuck the Leader, fuck the Cause, and fuck the War. I feel no guilt or undue allegience to those who were suckered into partaking in this moral abomination, or to the asshole in Texas who dreamed it up.
Great post!
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707408 - 06/03/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes." Henry David Thoreau

Thomas Jefferson was the shit, yo! 
Good quotes.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707414 - 06/03/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well thanks for a bunch of one liners, RandalFlagg. "I do not believe ..." really shouldn't be the formula for an argument.
The fact is, military recruiters have been given greater access into high schools. Military spending has gone up, and education spending has gone down.
The obvious deduction is that the government would rather see people join the military than go to school. What FACTS do you have that suggest otherwise? What FACTS can you present that show the government truly would rather kids go to college rather than to war?
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707421 - 06/03/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner. It is for that purpose that we are clamoring for a greater army and navy, more battleships and ammunition. An army and navy represent the people's toys. - Emma Goldman
It's good to see a lot of good posts showing up in this thread now.
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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707423 - 06/03/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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OK, so if I understand you, you believe in honorable fighting between two willing combatants (or do opposing armies), where both sides abide by the rules of engagement (whatever those are. I have no idea). If either of these sides kills non-combatants, or doesn't follow the rules of engagement then they are no longer honorably and shouldn't be respected. Is this about it?
How do you apply this situation to war??? War isn't clear cut. The lines of what's right and wrong get blurred. War isn't honorable. It's about survival, especially on an individual level. It's impossible to accurately place values of respect and honor onto war, when war itself is an inethical action. Real war isn't nearly as romantic as you make it out to be.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707428 - 06/03/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Man...I'll be in this thread all damn day responding to all of this stuff.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: quillini]
#5707433 - 06/03/06 01:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I disagree with some of your assertions, but I must say that you made a very good post.
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707435 - 06/03/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: Man...I'll be in this thread all damn day responding to all of this stuff.
You started it. What were you expecting?
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707444 - 06/03/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that allegience to anything should be willingly engaged in by consenting adults. That is why I think children should not be exposed to patriotism or religion. The choice to devote one's self to a cause, a path, or a nation is one that should be made by mature people. People who decide not to partake in a particular cause or path should not be disparaged.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707450 - 06/03/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
McKennaDMT said: How does a soldier discriminate what's an atrocity and what's not, when "fighting" for his country? It's war, there are no rules...especially WW2.
Fighting an enemy combatant is not an atrocity. Targeting innocent civilians is.
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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707454 - 06/03/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So what does that view say about civilians affected by war? Iraq wasn't a great place before, but now it's an abysmal kingdom of shit festering into civil war. A VAST majority of those participants were unwilling
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707490 - 06/03/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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avapxia said: Well thanks for a bunch of one liners, RandalFlagg. "I do not believe ..." really shouldn't be the formula for an argument.
There is nothing wrong with asserting one's "beliefs".
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avapxia said: The fact is, military recruiters have been given greater access into high schools.
How is it "greater access" if they were there to begin with? I graduated high school almost ten years ago (well before the No Child Left Behind Act) and I got phone calls and letters from pestering military recruiters. How could you get more "access" than that?
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avapxia said: Military spending has gone up, and education spending has gone down. The obvious deduction is that the government would rather see people join the military than go to school.
The obvious deduction is that the federal government is pumping money into Iraq and Afghanistan in order to build those nations up. Yes, the Defense Department has expressed desires (in articles that I remember reading) to expand the Army a little. But, adding 10,000 or 20,000 people to a branch of service does not constitute a complete militarization of society or "wanting every 18 year old in uniform".
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avapxia said: What FACTS do you have that suggest otherwise? What FACTS can you present that show the government truly would rather kids go to college rather than to war?
Do you honestly think the government wants no engineers, doctors, nurses, etc.. in our society? Do you think that the government wants every 18 year old in the military? The only fact I need to show that this is not the case is the fact that the government hasn't forced such a militarization; and the American public would not support it anyway.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707496 - 06/03/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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PoopShooter said: OK, so if I understand you, you believe in honorable fighting between two willing combatants (or do opposing armies), where both sides abide by the rules of engagement (whatever those are. I have no idea). If either of these sides kills non-combatants, or doesn't follow the rules of engagement then they are no longer honorably and shouldn't be respected. Is this about it?
That is pretty close to what I think.
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PoopShooter said: How do you apply this situation to war??? War isn't clear cut. The lines of what's right and wrong get blurred. War isn't honorable. It's about survival, especially on an individual level. It's impossible to accurately place values of respect and honor onto war, when war itself is an inethical action. Real war isn't nearly as romantic as you make it out to be.
I realize that there is much chaos and unpredictability in war. Adhering to certain standards of conduct is not always easy in such situations.
I never said war was romantic. Sometimes, it is necessary though.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707501 - 06/03/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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PoopShooter said: So what does that view say about civilians affected by war? Iraq wasn't a great place before, but now it's an abysmal kingdom of shit festering into civil war. A VAST majority of those participants were unwilling
It is terrible that innocent civilians are being affected by the chaos of this conflict. It should be noted that most of these civilians are being killed by terrorists who are setting off bombs.
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707503 - 06/03/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I feel sorry for those stationed there, and I wish they'd bring them home and end the whole fiasco. But considering the fact that no armed service would, in their right mind, actually accept me as a recruit (even if I did want to go), no, I don't really feel guilty.
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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707647 - 06/03/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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MAYBE most of the civillians killed have been killed by non-American combatants. But really, bombs are the least of most civilian's concerns at this point. Many people are afraid to leave their homes because of fear of being kidnapped and held for ransom by groups of thugs that thrive in the type of turmoil that the US invasion created over there. The invasion has promted an upsurgence in religious fundamentalism and it is no longer safe for women to leave their homes without wearing Hijabs. Contrary to media representation, prior to the invasion Iraqi women were not forced to where burkas and hide their faces constantly. Afghanistan, and I BELIEVE the United Arab Emirates on the other hand, ARE very fundamental countries and women are forced to where burkas almost everywhere. Afghanastan even moreso after the US invaded, created chaos, and pulled out.
But the actions of the US directly effect nearly all citizens, especially in the city of Baghdad. The city was bombed, electricity was off for months at a time, besides a random few minutes here and there. Water and sewer systems were desimated. US Soldiers searching for insurgents were forced into confrontation with innocent civilians, fearful for their lives. Communication between these groups is difficult, since they don't speak the same language.
The US invasion spurred all sorts of negativity in the country. Iraq was actually fairly progressive for a Middle Eastern country, especially in recent years. Yeah, Saddam Hussein was a terrible leader who murdered his political opposition, and yes, it's probably good that he's out of power, but the force that was used to take him out of power, and the innocents who are effected by those actions are suffering more than they ever did over Saddam. Jesus, how is it better over there if people are STILL being tortured and murdered. Sure, it's not US sanctioned, but it's still happening. To the Iraqi citizens, that's really all that matters. The civilian's are suffering because of the US invasion. There is nothing honorable or respectable about that.
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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Le_Canard]
#5707652 - 06/03/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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As much as I want to see an end to the conflict, I really don't think we can pull out the troops now. If we do, Iraq is going to descend into a civil war that WE perpetuated. Maybe that was the plan all along. Let them tear themselves apart for a decade or two, weaken themselves, then we can come in clean things up, be proclaimed hero's, get a major stockpile of oil and have a US stronghold in the middle east, all without a major war...If that were the case we probably would have pulled out already, but that sounds like it would have been a pretty good plan to me.
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cybrbeast
Up, then down, then...



Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 4,777
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707984 - 06/03/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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RandalFlagg said:
I would gander to say that most of the people dying from American actions are enemy combatants, but undoubtedly a significant amount of Iraqi civilians have died.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=48180
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A little over a year ago, a group of Johns Hopkins researchers reported that about 100,000 Iraqis, mostly civilians, had died as a result of the Iraq war during its first 18 months, with at least 30,000 of the deaths directly attributable to military violence by the U.S. and its allies (and most of the remainder an indirect consequence of the occupation). The study, published in The Lancet, the highly respected British medical journal, applied the same rigorous, scientifically validated methods that the Hopkins researchers had used in estimating that 1.7 million people had died in the Congo in 2000. Though the Congo study had won the praise of the Bush and Blair administrations and had become the foundation for UN Security Council and State Department actions, this study was quickly declared invalid by the U.S. government and by supporters of the war.
What the basic rules of engagement in Iraq state is that the guerillas must be killed at all costs. So if they snipe the Americans and flee into a building the building and all the eventual innocent occupants will be killed by automatic gunfire, tanks or air strikes. The other option, to send in troops to engage in urban combat, would result in more soldiers' lives being lost. So they are trading lots of civilian lives to save soldiers' lives. And they are losing ever more support and breeding more insurgents in Iraq because of it. How would you feel if criminals or killers in America would flee into occupied buildings and the buildings and everyone in them would be destroyed?
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futuretribe.space
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trendal
J♠


Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707994 - 06/03/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Naw I don't feel guilty - my country never went there in the first place!
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Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


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Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: trendal]
#5708588 - 06/03/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I like your country.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5708606 - 06/03/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It's a good country don'cha know.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Koala Koolio]
#5708627 - 06/03/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Koala Koolio said: It disgusts me that I'm living a comfortable life while people are dying *anywhere*. Our troops, in Iraq, yes. But, not nearly to the degree as those who are placed into their situations without choice. I don't like to see americans dying, but there are problems all over the world, and people who did nothing to fall into helpless situations.
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Le_Canard
The Duk Abides

Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5708637 - 06/03/06 07:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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PoopShooter said: As much as I want to see an end to the conflict, I really don't think we can pull out the troops now. If we do, Iraq is going to descend into a civil war that WE perpetuated. Maybe that was the plan all along. Let them tear themselves apart for a decade or two, weaken themselves, then we can come in clean things up, be proclaimed hero's, get a major stockpile of oil and have a US stronghold in the middle east, all without a major war...If that were the case we probably would have pulled out already, but that sounds like it would have been a pretty good plan to me.
Oh, I agree. Pulling out now would create chaos, to say the least. I should've clarified an eventual pullout, not a sudden one.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Le_Canard]
#5708725 - 06/03/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I felt guilty that I left........
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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