|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707450 - 06/03/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
McKennaDMT said: How does a soldier discriminate what's an atrocity and what's not, when "fighting" for his country? It's war, there are no rules...especially WW2.
Fighting an enemy combatant is not an atrocity. Targeting innocent civilians is.
|
PoopShooter
Escape Artist
Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707454 - 06/03/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
So what does that view say about civilians affected by war? Iraq wasn't a great place before, but now it's an abysmal kingdom of shit festering into civil war. A VAST majority of those participants were unwilling
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707490 - 06/03/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
avapxia said: Well thanks for a bunch of one liners, RandalFlagg. "I do not believe ..." really shouldn't be the formula for an argument.
There is nothing wrong with asserting one's "beliefs".
Quote:
avapxia said: The fact is, military recruiters have been given greater access into high schools.
How is it "greater access" if they were there to begin with? I graduated high school almost ten years ago (well before the No Child Left Behind Act) and I got phone calls and letters from pestering military recruiters. How could you get more "access" than that?
Quote:
avapxia said: Military spending has gone up, and education spending has gone down. The obvious deduction is that the government would rather see people join the military than go to school.
The obvious deduction is that the federal government is pumping money into Iraq and Afghanistan in order to build those nations up. Yes, the Defense Department has expressed desires (in articles that I remember reading) to expand the Army a little. But, adding 10,000 or 20,000 people to a branch of service does not constitute a complete militarization of society or "wanting every 18 year old in uniform".
Quote:
avapxia said: What FACTS do you have that suggest otherwise? What FACTS can you present that show the government truly would rather kids go to college rather than to war?
Do you honestly think the government wants no engineers, doctors, nurses, etc.. in our society? Do you think that the government wants every 18 year old in the military? The only fact I need to show that this is not the case is the fact that the government hasn't forced such a militarization; and the American public would not support it anyway.
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707496 - 06/03/06 01:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PoopShooter said: OK, so if I understand you, you believe in honorable fighting between two willing combatants (or do opposing armies), where both sides abide by the rules of engagement (whatever those are. I have no idea). If either of these sides kills non-combatants, or doesn't follow the rules of engagement then they are no longer honorably and shouldn't be respected. Is this about it?
That is pretty close to what I think.
Quote:
PoopShooter said: How do you apply this situation to war??? War isn't clear cut. The lines of what's right and wrong get blurred. War isn't honorable. It's about survival, especially on an individual level. It's impossible to accurately place values of respect and honor onto war, when war itself is an inethical action. Real war isn't nearly as romantic as you make it out to be.
I realize that there is much chaos and unpredictability in war. Adhering to certain standards of conduct is not always easy in such situations.
I never said war was romantic. Sometimes, it is necessary though.
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707501 - 06/03/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PoopShooter said: So what does that view say about civilians affected by war? Iraq wasn't a great place before, but now it's an abysmal kingdom of shit festering into civil war. A VAST majority of those participants were unwilling
It is terrible that innocent civilians are being affected by the chaos of this conflict. It should be noted that most of these civilians are being killed by terrorists who are setting off bombs.
|
Le_Canard
The Duk Abides
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707503 - 06/03/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I feel sorry for those stationed there, and I wish they'd bring them home and end the whole fiasco. But considering the fact that no armed service would, in their right mind, actually accept me as a recruit (even if I did want to go), no, I don't really feel guilty.
|
PoopShooter
Escape Artist
Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707647 - 06/03/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
MAYBE most of the civillians killed have been killed by non-American combatants. But really, bombs are the least of most civilian's concerns at this point. Many people are afraid to leave their homes because of fear of being kidnapped and held for ransom by groups of thugs that thrive in the type of turmoil that the US invasion created over there. The invasion has promted an upsurgence in religious fundamentalism and it is no longer safe for women to leave their homes without wearing Hijabs. Contrary to media representation, prior to the invasion Iraqi women were not forced to where burkas and hide their faces constantly. Afghanistan, and I BELIEVE the United Arab Emirates on the other hand, ARE very fundamental countries and women are forced to where burkas almost everywhere. Afghanastan even moreso after the US invaded, created chaos, and pulled out.
But the actions of the US directly effect nearly all citizens, especially in the city of Baghdad. The city was bombed, electricity was off for months at a time, besides a random few minutes here and there. Water and sewer systems were desimated. US Soldiers searching for insurgents were forced into confrontation with innocent civilians, fearful for their lives. Communication between these groups is difficult, since they don't speak the same language.
The US invasion spurred all sorts of negativity in the country. Iraq was actually fairly progressive for a Middle Eastern country, especially in recent years. Yeah, Saddam Hussein was a terrible leader who murdered his political opposition, and yes, it's probably good that he's out of power, but the force that was used to take him out of power, and the innocents who are effected by those actions are suffering more than they ever did over Saddam. Jesus, how is it better over there if people are STILL being tortured and murdered. Sure, it's not US sanctioned, but it's still happening. To the Iraqi citizens, that's really all that matters. The civilian's are suffering because of the US invasion. There is nothing honorable or respectable about that.
|
PoopShooter
Escape Artist
Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Le_Canard]
#5707652 - 06/03/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
As much as I want to see an end to the conflict, I really don't think we can pull out the troops now. If we do, Iraq is going to descend into a civil war that WE perpetuated. Maybe that was the plan all along. Let them tear themselves apart for a decade or two, weaken themselves, then we can come in clean things up, be proclaimed hero's, get a major stockpile of oil and have a US stronghold in the middle east, all without a major war...If that were the case we probably would have pulled out already, but that sounds like it would have been a pretty good plan to me.
|
cybrbeast
Up, then down, then...
Registered: 01/06/03
Posts: 4,777
Loc: event horizon
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707984 - 06/03/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
RandalFlagg said:
I would gander to say that most of the people dying from American actions are enemy combatants, but undoubtedly a significant amount of Iraqi civilians have died.
http://www.tomdispatch.com/index.mhtml?pid=48180
Quote:
A little over a year ago, a group of Johns Hopkins researchers reported that about 100,000 Iraqis, mostly civilians, had died as a result of the Iraq war during its first 18 months, with at least 30,000 of the deaths directly attributable to military violence by the U.S. and its allies (and most of the remainder an indirect consequence of the occupation). The study, published in The Lancet, the highly respected British medical journal, applied the same rigorous, scientifically validated methods that the Hopkins researchers had used in estimating that 1.7 million people had died in the Congo in 2000. Though the Congo study had won the praise of the Bush and Blair administrations and had become the foundation for UN Security Council and State Department actions, this study was quickly declared invalid by the U.S. government and by supporters of the war.
What the basic rules of engagement in Iraq state is that the guerillas must be killed at all costs. So if they snipe the Americans and flee into a building the building and all the eventual innocent occupants will be killed by automatic gunfire, tanks or air strikes. The other option, to send in troops to engage in urban combat, would result in more soldiers' lives being lost. So they are trading lots of civilian lives to save soldiers' lives. And they are losing ever more support and breeding more insurgents in Iraq because of it. How would you feel if criminals or killers in America would flee into occupied buildings and the buildings and everyone in them would be destroyed?
-------------------- futuretribe.space
|
trendal
J♠
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 20,815
Loc: Ontario, Canada
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707994 - 06/03/06 04:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Naw I don't feel guilty - my country never went there in the first place!
--------------------
Once, men turned their thinking over to machines in the hope that this would set them free. But that only permitted other men with machines to enslave them.
|
Shroomism
Space Travellin
Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: trendal]
#5708588 - 06/03/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I like your country.
--------------------
|
RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5708606 - 06/03/06 07:32 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
It's a good country don'cha know.
|
Silversoul
Rhizome
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Koala Koolio]
#5708627 - 06/03/06 07:38 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Koala Koolio said: It disgusts me that I'm living a comfortable life while people are dying *anywhere*. Our troops, in Iraq, yes. But, not nearly to the degree as those who are placed into their situations without choice. I don't like to see americans dying, but there are problems all over the world, and people who did nothing to fall into helpless situations.
--------------------
|
Le_Canard
The Duk Abides
Registered: 05/16/03
Posts: 94,392
Loc: Earthfarm 1
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5708637 - 06/03/06 07:42 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
PoopShooter said: As much as I want to see an end to the conflict, I really don't think we can pull out the troops now. If we do, Iraq is going to descend into a civil war that WE perpetuated. Maybe that was the plan all along. Let them tear themselves apart for a decade or two, weaken themselves, then we can come in clean things up, be proclaimed hero's, get a major stockpile of oil and have a US stronghold in the middle east, all without a major war...If that were the case we probably would have pulled out already, but that sounds like it would have been a pretty good plan to me.
Oh, I agree. Pulling out now would create chaos, to say the least. I should've clarified an eventual pullout, not a sudden one.
|
SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,633
Loc: Harmless (Mostly)
Last seen: 16 hours, 59 minutes
|
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Le_Canard]
#5708725 - 06/03/06 08:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I felt guilty that I left........
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
|
|