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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707356 - 06/03/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yeah man, but think of their resolve. They are fully committed to their actions, to the point that they are willing to kill their own countrymen for it! NOW THAT IS RESOLVE. TRUE WARRIOR SPIRIT. If that isn't to be respected, I don't know what is.
Besides you've heard of this , right?
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707364 - 06/03/06 12:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
McKennaDMT said: I'm glad that I live in a country that allows me to have such a beautiful open discussion such as this...
That is basic. That should be expected. The government wants to point to these basic rights and say "Look, look! Aren't we great for letting you use your brain and talk it out with other individuals? Aren't we the greatest?"
The truth is that governments never grant rights - governments ONLY take away rights. Governments pick and choose which rights you can and cannot practice without punishment, but you have these rights regardless of what they say.
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Burke Dennings
baby merchant

Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 81,641
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707365 - 06/03/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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No..... there are some things worth dying for, but Iraqi oil is not one of them.
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Konnrade
↑↑↓↓<--><-->BA



Registered: 09/13/05
Posts: 13,833
Loc: LA Suburbs
Last seen: 8 months, 26 days
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707373 - 06/03/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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At the end of the vietnam war, a lot of soldiers coming home were met by half-baked protestors who thought that they should boo and hiss and deride soldiers because they didn't like what the war was about.
Those people were too self-righteous to realize that the soldiers understood more about the horrors of the war than the comfy, spoiled protesters could have imagined. They were acting like pricks to people who deserved respect.
Anyone who targets soldiers because they don't like the war that they were serving in is a jackass. Soldiers don't have a choice once they've enlisted. You do what you're told, or you go to leavenworth.
Wars aren't started by soldiers, they are started by politicians. Show respect for soldiers, they had good intentions for enlisting. It might be easier to whine and bitch about soldiers (who are an easy target), but it's also pathetic.
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I find your lack of faith disturbing
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Burke Dennings]
#5707377 - 06/03/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Burke Dennings said: No..... there are some things worth dying for, but Iraqi oil is not one of them.
I agree. Plenty of things worth dying for, but "protecting your government" is never one of those things. The government is a small minority of people (think about how many people are in congress), who decide what the majority can and cannot do, as well as dick around in other countries.
It's the dicking around that has caused this problem with "terrorism" as it is.
Why would you ever fight for a small minority of rulemakers? They want you to fight so that they can stay in power, that's it. "Terrorists" do not want to kill me - that isn't their real goal. Their goal is to change the American GOVERNMENT - specifically our interactions in Israel. They are willing to kill me and many other civilians in order to get the message across to the government (which of course i disagree with), but they do not wish to kill civilians for absolutely no reason.
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Konnrade]
#5707385 - 06/03/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Konnrade said: At the end of the vietnam war, a lot of soldiers coming home were met by half-baked protestors who thought that they should boo and hiss and deride soldiers because they didn't like what the war was about.
Those people were too self-righteous to realize that the soldiers understood more about the horrors of the war than the comfy, spoiled protesters could have imagined. They were acting like pricks to people who deserved respect.
Anyone who targets soldiers because they don't like the war that they were serving in is a jackass. Soldiers don't have a choice once they've enlisted. You do what you're told, or you go to leavenworth.
Wars aren't started by soldiers, they are started by politicians. Show respect for soldiers, they had good intentions for enlisting. It might be easier to whine and bitch about soldiers (who are an easy target), but it's also pathetic.
It's not the fact that i disagree with the war that i dissaprove of soldiers, it is the fact that they chose to sign up to kill or be killed in order to support a government AT ALL. It is a completely different issue from the war. I don't walk up to random soldiers on the street and start yelling at them - in the same way, i don't walk up to others whose lifestyle i may disagree with and just start arguing. What people choose is their own choice, but i don't have to approve of it. For the most part, i silently disapprove, but the discussion took that direction and i felt led to explain myself.
If we are talking about the Iraq War specifically, of course i do not blame the soldiers. They are the victims in that case.
It would be especially stupid to shun a soldier who served in Vietnam because of the fact that the war was dependent on a draft.
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quillini
one meanmotorscooter


Registered: 04/18/06
Posts: 255
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707387 - 06/03/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Maybe I'm unnatural or whatever, but I feel absolutely no allegience to any group or community. There is no such thing as a great monolithic "American" culture; that's just an abstract idea invented by people with an agenda and a penchant for rhetoric. People who join the military, by and large, do so out of desperation. They tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and they see joining the military as a means of moving up in the world. Many of them fail to consider that the military extends all these benefits because the job of a soldier is a fucking dangerous one. When in your new career you are issued a shiny helmet and a gun, you can take that as an indication that there's a pretty solid element of risk involved.
So do I feel guilty that I chose a different path? Not really. I recognize that luck has afforded me a relatively privileged backgroud, but I still have lots of work ahead of me to get where I want to be in life. The option of joining the military is always in front of me, but I don't choose it because to me it's just not worth handing over my freedom and autonomy to a military-industrial complex who will send me to certain death for the most cynical of reasons. The Iraq war is a prime example of such. This war was based on vulgar manipulation of this quasi-patriotic post-9/11 hysteria that, I'm sorry to say, does not bring a proud lump to my throat or a tear to my eye. It does not make me proud to be an American, and it does not make me proud of "our" troops, who were pitifully suckered into this charade by their puppetmasters. They are not heroes so much as they are victims.
Even more tragic is the plight of all the innocent people who are mixed up in all this shit. Sorry, but I just can't begrudge somebody for picking up a weapon and defending their home. If Iraqis invaded the US, they would meet a great force of rednecks armed with pickup trucks and an assorment of firearms, and the Ohio Valley would never be taken. They too would probably label this Hayseed Militia as "enemy combatants", and perhaps it is true that they are, but that says nothing as to the justification of their actions. This Hayseed Militia (aka Corncob Contingent), faced with the prospect of being occupied by an aggressive foreign element, has the option of defending themselves by force or laying down and accepting their fate. I can only guess that a good proportion of Americans out in these parts would choose the former. How is it different in Iraq, aside from the roles being reversed? How do we celebrate the Resistance movement in France against the Germans but condemn the Iraqis doing the same thing against us?
An' another thing: every American in Iraq right now is there because they made a choice to surrender their lives to the government. Iraqi civilians made no such choice; the situation was thrust upon them. So when an Iraqi dies due to circumstances brought on by our occupation, it is infinitely more tragic than the death of an American serviceman who, one way or another, chose to be there.
I already did my part in this debacle. I was against this fucking war before it even started. For that I, as were others with similar opinions, was labeled unpatriotic, a traitor, for opposing Our Great Leader. Well fine then, fuck the Leader, fuck the Cause, and fuck the War. I feel no guilt or undue allegience to those who were suckered into partaking in this moral abomination, or to the asshole in Texas who dreamed it up.
-------------------- No; truth, being alive, was not halfway between anything. It was only to be found by continuous excursions into either realm, and though proportion is the final secret, to espouse it at the outset is to insure sterility. Only connect...
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
#5707392 - 06/03/06 12:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
avapxia said: College tuitions have gone up a staggering 40 percent in the last five years.
The vast majority of students now borrow to help finance college.
Yep. College (along with health-care) is getting more expensive.
Quote:
avapxia said: Most public colleges now report six-year rather than four-year graduation rates, because so many students have to drop out and work for a time to make ends meet.
Most of these six year graduates are taking so long to graduate not because of finances but because universities are letting morons and goof-offs in.
Quote:
avapxia said: The government IS cutting funding for higher education. This is obviously the case - STATISTICALLY. It is a fact, you can't deny it.
Bush's recent cuts to the grant program has now left her without any grants whatsoever.
I do remember seeing some articles about how some education funding has been cut at the federal level. However, there is still significant education funding at both the state and at the federal level. In my state, students get grants from the state and no-interest or low-interest loans from the federal government. Pell grants from the federal government still exist as well. Also, all public universities are given money by the state.
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avapxia said: My girlfriend is an example of someone who has been "kept down."
She's being kept down because she isn't being handed free money?
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avapxia said: Take a look around, it is obvious. Why would the government want kids to go to college when they desperately need them in the military?
I do not believe that there is some nefarious plot to deny educational handouts in order to get kids to go to the military. This cutting of educational benefits is in direct response to the massive federal budget deficit. We are in the red and the budget people trimmed some expenditures.
Quote:
avapxia said: The No Child Left Behind Act has changed the rules so that all public schools must allow military recruiters into their school just as they do higher education recruiters. The same act also forces schools to give out personal contact information of students to military recruiters if they request. The child and school cannot refuse this, only the parents can.
I was in high school long before the No Child Left Behind act. Military recruiters came into our school, there were military posters on the walls, and recruiters called my house. The No Child Left Behind act has not increased military recruitment in high schools. It has always existed.
Quote:
avapxia said: It is good to know that you respect Nazi's for "defending their country."
I can respect the German soldier who fought for his country. I cannot respect the German soldier that was involved in atrocities nor can I respect the Nazi leadership that instigated such terrible things.
Edited by RandalFlagg (06/03/06 12:49 PM)
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707396 - 06/03/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I can respect the German soldier who fought for his country. I cannot respect the German soldier that was involved in atrocities nor can I respect the Nazi leadership who instigated such terrible things.
How does a soldier discriminate what's an atrocity and what's not, when "fighting" for his country? It's war, there are no rules...especially WW2.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Shroomism
Space Travellin


Registered: 02/13/00
Posts: 66,015
Loc: 9th Dimension
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707398 - 06/03/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I'd rather fight terrorism at home, in my own country. But I speak of the terrorism perpetuated by our own government. The only kind of terrorism I have ever experienced. If I grew up in Iraq, I would hate Americans too. Hell, I grew up in America, and I hate a lot of americans.
Have some quotes.
"It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy of the rest of mankind." Voltaire
"The real threat to our nation currently comes from within, when we begin taking away the very civil rights and civil liberty protections that made us great" -Hilary Shelton
"And he moved the tyranny and suppression of freedom to his own country, and they called it the Patriot Act under the disguise of fighting terrorism." - Osama bin Laden
“A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government.” Edward Abbey
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them." Thomas Jefferson
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God." Thomas Jefferson
"My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government." Thomas Jefferson
"Sometimes it is said that man cannot be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the form of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question." Thomas Jefferson
"The care of human life and happiness, and not their destruction, is the first and only object of good government." Thomas Jefferson
"The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." Thomas Jefferson
"We hold these truths to be self-evident: that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." Thomas Jefferson
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." President George Bush
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies." George Bernard Shaw
"War is much too serious a matter to be entrusted to the military" Georges Clemenceau
"Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes." Henry David Thoreau
"You can no more win a war than you can win an earthquake." Jeannette Rankin
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707400 - 06/03/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
PoopShooter said: Yeah man, but think of their resolve. They are fully committed to their actions, to the point that they are willing to kill their own countrymen for it! NOW THAT IS RESOLVE. TRUE WARRIOR SPIRIT. If that isn't to be respected, I don't know what is.
That is not the warrior spirit. That is murder.
Quote:
PoopShooter said: Besides you've heard of this , right?
Yes. If those American soldiers willingly killed innocent civilians then they deserve to be punished severely.
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: quillini]
#5707401 - 06/03/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
quillini said: Maybe I'm unnatural or whatever, but I feel absolutely no allegience to any group or community. There is no such thing as a great monolithic "American" culture; that's just an abstract idea invented by people with an agenda and a penchant for rhetoric. People who join the military, by and large, do so out of desperation. They tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds, and they see joining the military as a means of moving up in the world. Many of them fail to consider that the military extends all these benefits because the job of a soldier is a fucking dangerous one. When in your new career you are issued a shiny helmet and a gun, you can take that as an indication that there's a pretty solid element of risk involved.
So do I feel guilty that I chose a different path? Not really. I recognize that luck has afforded me a relatively privileged backgroud, but I still have lots of work ahead of me to get where I want to be in life. The option of joining the military is always in front of me, but I don't choose it because to me it's just not worth handing over my freedom and autonomy to a military-industrial complex who will send me to certain death for the most cynical of reasons. The Iraq war is a prime example of such. This war was based on vulgar manipulation of this quasi-patriotic post-9/11 hysteria that, I'm sorry to say, does not bring a proud lump to my throat or a tear to my eye. It does not make me proud to be an American, and it does not make me proud of "our" troops, who were pitifully suckered into this charade by their puppetmasters. They are not heroes so much as they are victims.
Even more tragic is the plight of all the innocent people who are mixed up in all this shit. Sorry, but I just can't begrudge somebody for picking up a weapon and defending their home. If Iraqis invaded the US, they would meet a great force of rednecks armed with pickup trucks and an assorment of firearms, and the Ohio Valley would never be taken. They too would probably label this Hayseed Militia as "enemy combatants", and perhaps it is true that they are, but that says nothing as to the justification of their actions. This Hayseed Militia (aka Corncob Contingent), faced with the prospect of being occupied by an aggressive foreign element, has the option of defending themselves by force or laying down and accepting their fate. I can only guess that a good proportion of Americans out in these parts would choose the former. How is it different in Iraq, aside from the roles being reversed? How do we celebrate the Resistance movement in France against the Germans but condemn the Iraqis doing the same thing against us?
An' another thing: every American in Iraq right now is there because they made a choice to surrender their lives to the government. Iraqi civilians made no such choice; the situation was thrust upon them. So when an Iraqi dies due to circumstances brought on by our occupation, it is infinitely more tragic than the death of an American serviceman who, one way or another, chose to be there.
I already did my part in this debacle. I was against this fucking war before it even started. For that I, as were others with similar opinions, was labeled unpatriotic, a traitor, for opposing Our Great Leader. Well fine then, fuck the Leader, fuck the Cause, and fuck the War. I feel no guilt or undue allegience to those who were suckered into partaking in this moral abomination, or to the asshole in Texas who dreamed it up.
Great post!
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
#5707408 - 06/03/06 12:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Beware of all enterprises that require new clothes." Henry David Thoreau

Thomas Jefferson was the shit, yo! 
Good quotes.
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707414 - 06/03/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well thanks for a bunch of one liners, RandalFlagg. "I do not believe ..." really shouldn't be the formula for an argument.
The fact is, military recruiters have been given greater access into high schools. Military spending has gone up, and education spending has gone down.
The obvious deduction is that the government would rather see people join the military than go to school. What FACTS do you have that suggest otherwise? What FACTS can you present that show the government truly would rather kids go to college rather than to war?
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avapxia
Stranger


Registered: 04/26/06
Posts: 277
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
#5707421 - 06/03/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner. It is for that purpose that we are clamoring for a greater army and navy, more battleships and ammunition. An army and navy represent the people's toys. - Emma Goldman
It's good to see a lot of good posts showing up in this thread now.
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PoopShooter
Escape Artist

Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707423 - 06/03/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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OK, so if I understand you, you believe in honorable fighting between two willing combatants (or do opposing armies), where both sides abide by the rules of engagement (whatever those are. I have no idea). If either of these sides kills non-combatants, or doesn't follow the rules of engagement then they are no longer honorably and shouldn't be respected. Is this about it?
How do you apply this situation to war??? War isn't clear cut. The lines of what's right and wrong get blurred. War isn't honorable. It's about survival, especially on an individual level. It's impossible to accurately place values of respect and honor onto war, when war itself is an inethical action. Real war isn't nearly as romantic as you make it out to be.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
#5707428 - 06/03/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Man...I'll be in this thread all damn day responding to all of this stuff.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: quillini]
#5707433 - 06/03/06 01:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I disagree with some of your assertions, but I must say that you made a very good post.
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Penguarky Tunguin
f n o r d

Registered: 08/08/04
Posts: 17,192
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707435 - 06/03/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RandalFlagg said: Man...I'll be in this thread all damn day responding to all of this stuff.
You started it. What were you expecting?
-------------------- Every mistake, intentional or otherwise, in the above post, is the fault of the reader.
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RandalFlagg
Stranger
Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
#5707444 - 06/03/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I think that allegience to anything should be willingly engaged in by consenting adults. That is why I think children should not be exposed to patriotism or religion. The choice to devote one's self to a cause, a path, or a nation is one that should be made by mature people. People who decide not to partake in a particular cause or path should not be disparaged.
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