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Offlineavapxia
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707268 - 06/03/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

They willingly chose to sign their life away for X number of years. They knew 100% that there was a possibility of seeing combat during their service.

It pains me to see it as well, but i know that i would never make the choice to sign my will away to an entity that is known to be corrupt, deceitful, greedy, and self-serving - as all governments are. The biggest mistake people can make is that governments have the interest of the people in mind, which is certainly not the case. History has shown this time and time again.

I am not solely blaming the soldiers though, who chose to sign themselves away to murder and be murdered. The system that we live in essentially forces people into that choice. Do you really think the government wants to fund grants and promote higher education during wartime? Isn't it better that they keep the poor where they are, with no real hope of higher education? In that way, they can then run a bunch of commercials like we are seeing today where kids sign up for the Army, Marines, and so on for the purposes of higher education.

It's a sad situation. I blame the government, naturally, for nudging kids decisions in that direction. Ultimately it comes down to the individual, though.

And like someone has already said, i feel more disgusted at myself for living comfortably while someone dies every 3 seconds because of lack of water, basic sanitation, and basic medication. That disgusts me far more than my not being able to kill others for a pointless cause.


Edited by avapxia (06/03/06 12:04 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #5707274 - 06/03/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
I've never been attacked. I never seen a terrorist incident. I don't beleive terrorism is a threat.




Terrorism is a threat. There are a significant amount of Muslim extremists around the world who are intently trying to kill Americans (and Westerners in general). There have been scores of attacks on Western civilians by Islamic militants.

Do they kill as much as tobacco or automobile accidents? Of course not. But, there is the possibility of massive casualties if some of these Muslims extremists succeed with their plots (which are quite real I assure you).


Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
They are over there for rich people to get even richer.





I disagree. I don't agree with the Iraq war, but I do not hold the opinion that it was instigated by nefarious businessmen and corporations.

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
This uppity respect for US armed forces is getting out of control.





I disagree. Anybody who puts their ass on the line deserves respect in my book.

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
Support the killing of innocent lives? No thanks.




As I said before, innocent civilians have been killed in Iraq because of American actions. But, I think that American actions overwhelmingly have targeted actual combatants.

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
How about support a way to get these fuckers home as soon as possible and let that part of the world continue killing themselves like they have done for thousands of years.




I can agree with that. I say we leave and let that country rot.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
    #5707278 - 06/03/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
But the problem does indeed arise when one states 'ownership' over land, and seeks to conquer the communities of others. *cough*iraq*cough*




I don't think the American military planners and strategists ever wanted to "conquer". But, did they want a friendly Iraqi government in place that would host U.S. military bases, act as a counterweight to Iran, and keep the oil flowing? Of course.

Quote:

Shroomism said:
But if history has taught us anything, it is that history is doomed to repeat itself.
And all empires have fallen under their own weight.
The roman empire was once the greatest in the world.
Now it's the American empire.




True. All empires crumble.


Edited by RandalFlagg (06/03/06 01:51 PM)


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707280 - 06/03/06 12:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Are you afraid of being attacked by a terrorist?


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
Posts: 15,608
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Shroomism]
    #5707288 - 06/03/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomism said:
Well the same could be said for those going to iraq and dying.. they do it to themselves.
not my fault they decided to sell their lives to the US government for a "war" that no one believes in.




It could be argued that American soldiers "do it to themselves". They willingly sign up knowing that they will probably end up in a combat zone. However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.


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Offlineavapxia
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707291 - 06/03/06 12:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.




Why?!


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Offlinedudefromaz
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
    #5707296 - 06/03/06 12:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I would go, but does the army or whatever let you shroom while your there?


--------------------
Remember, the best drug, is a natural drug.....

Peace, Fratirnityishly, Smoke Da Stuff, Special Chocolate




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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
    #5707304 - 06/03/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

avapxia said:
Quote:

However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.




Why?!





Exactly.  I think you've seen too many hollywood war movies.  :tongue2:


--------------------
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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
    #5707305 - 06/03/06 12:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

avapxia said:
but i know that i would never make the choice to sign my will away to an entity that is known to be corrupt, deceitful, greedy, and self-serving - as all governments are. The biggest mistake people can make is that governments have the interest of the people in mind, which is certainly not the case. History has shown this time and time again.




I distrust governments as well.

Quote:

avapxia said:
Do you really think the government wants to fund grants and promote higher education during wartime?




Grants for post-secondary educational institutions are still in place (as are no-interest loans). I go to a technical school and just a few days ago everybody was talking about all the grant money they just got.

Quote:

avapxia said:
Isn't it better that they keep the poor where they are, with no real hope of higher education?




The poor in America are the recipients of extensive handouts for schooling and for living expenses in general. I don't buy (and never have bought) the fallacious argument that the poor are "kept down".

Quote:

avapxia said:
And like someone has already said, i feel more disgusted at myself for living comfortably while someone dies every 3 seconds because of lack of water, basic sanitation, and basic medication.




Strangely, I feel very little emotion for people who cannot get their shit together. If some backward country is full of starving people while warlords fight over land (and it's been that way for a thousand years) I have the opinion that they should wallow in their own shit.


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707308 - 06/03/06 12:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yet you support troops who are trying to "liberate" them...


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Posts: 15,608
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #5707313 - 06/03/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
Are you afraid of being attacked by a terrorist?




As far as my individual safety goes, I am not afraid in my present location because I live in a small city. However, if some catastrophic attack were to cause social discord then I would probably be personally affected.

If I was in a heavily populated city (New York City for example) or if I was in a foreign country that is known to have many people sympathetic to Islamic extremists...then yes I would be afraid of terrorism.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: avapxia]
    #5707317 - 06/03/06 12:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

avapxia said:
Quote:

However, the act of fighting and serving one's countrymen is noble enough that it makes me respect them.




Why?!




A person who risks their own life to defend their country is deserving of respect in my opinion.


Edited by RandalFlagg (06/03/06 12:22 PM)


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #5707321 - 06/03/06 12:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

McKennaDMT said:
Yet you support troops who are trying to "liberate" them...




I support the troops but I do not support how they are being used.


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OfflinePoopShooter
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Registered: 01/03/03
Posts: 163
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707327 - 06/03/06 12:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Even Muslims who risk their lives for their religious beliefs? You must respect them too, right?


Slightly unrelated:
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/ This is a blog of a young Iraqi women, who, before the invasion, was working in IT at a large company. It's a really interesting inside look into what's going on in Baghdad...It might be biased, but it really gives paints an amazing picture of what the people over there are going through...


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707334 - 06/03/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"I happen to be in the unenviable position of being for the war, but against the troops."  -- Bill Hicks


:grin:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
    #5707336 - 06/03/06 12:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PoopShooter said:
Even Muslims who risk their lives for their religious beliefs? You must respect them too, right?




I can respect the ones that fight properly. When they target American soldiers, I certainly don't like it but I can understand it. However, I cannot fathom their proclivity for targeting innocent civilians in a malicious manner.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: PoopShooter]
    #5707339 - 06/03/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

PoopShooter said:
Come on, you make it sound like everyone is Iraq is a serial killer...The majority of those problems didn't start until the US invaded.

No, I'm not guilty about not being in Iraq. The soldiers aren't fighting FOR us. They aren't fighting to protect us anyway. They are fighting in our name, but I'm not sure that's something to be proud of. I'm not quite sure why you would feel any worse for the American's than you do the Iraqis (innocent and guilty alike) that we are killing. Just because you have more in common? Isn't the value of human life the same? Even those of cultures that you don't understand?




I was just commenting on those that are actively trying to maim and kill american soldiers. The uniform tends to attract all sorts of inhuman bastards who seem to rather enjoy going apeshit on someone.


--------------------

I find your lack of faith disturbing


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InvisiblePenguarky Tunguin
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Konnrade]
    #5707343 - 06/03/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm glad that I live in a country that allows me to have such a beautiful open discussion such as this...  :smirk:


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Offlineavapxia
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5707354 - 06/03/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


The poor in America are the recipients of extensive handouts for schooling and for living expenses in general. I don't buy (and never have bought) the fallacious argument that the poor are "kept down".




http://streaming.americanprogress.org/ThinkProgress/2006/busheducation012306.320.240.mov.html

My girlfriend is an example of someone who has been "kept down." Now typically i don't like using anecdotal arguments, but since you did i'll just use her as an example. She did very well in high school, and got a decent amount of scholarships and grants. She was going to a community college with that money. Bush's recent cuts to the grant program has now left her without any grants whatsoever. Her parents make less than $30,000 a year (both parents work, and her father has a 4-year degree from Texas A&M).

The government IS cutting funding for higher education. This is obviously the case - STATISTICALLY. It is a fact, you can't deny it.

http://www.tompaine.com/articles/2006/01/25/bush_back_to_the_bubble.php
Quote:

I think what we did was reform the student loan program. We are not cutting money out of it. In other words, people aren't going to be cut off the program. We're just making sure it works better as part of the reconciliation package I think she's talking about. We are saving money in the student loan program because it's inefficient.

Got that wrong. Secreted in the "reconciliation package" that the administration and the Republican majority in Congress are pushing is a staggering $12.7 billion cut in student loan programs%u2014the largest cut in history.

That bulk of that cut will be paid in the form of higher interest rates and fees paid by students and their parents. On average, students will face an additional $2,000 in interest payments; parents an additional $3,000.

As for private lenders that provide student loans%u2014they'll make out just fine. Rather than significantly cutting subsidies to private lenders, Rep. John Boehner%u2014an architect of this legislation and a candidate for House majority leader%u2014targeted working families for the cuts. As The Chronicle of Higher Education reports, Boehner met in December with private student lenders, who contribute handsomely to his campaigns, and said: "Relax. Stay calm. At the end of the day, I believe you'll be at least satisfied, or even perhaps happy. Know that I have all of you in my two trusted hands."

Those "trusted hands" don't protect students like Tiffany Cooper, or their parents. An additional $2,000 in costs doesn't seem like much to legislators like Boehner, who collect more in individual checks from well-heeled contributors. But for working families struggling to make ends meet, it cruelly adds to already growing burdens. College tuitions have gone up a staggering 40 percent in the last five years. State support for public universities has been cut. The Republican Congress, violating a promise Bush made while campaigning, has frozen maximum Pell Grants at the same level for the fourth straight year. The vast majority of students now borrow to help finance college. The average loan burden a student carries upon graduation is more than $19,000. Students from working families have little choice but to pile up debt, even while working part-time and piecing together grant opportunities.

Already, the burden of paying for college is closing the doors of higher education to deserving students. Most public colleges now report six-year rather than four-year graduation rates, because so many students have to drop out and work for a time to make ends meet.




Take a look around, it is obvious. Why would the government want kids to go to college when they desperately need them in the military? We have a war in Iraq, we are still in Afghanistan, and there is an impending war with Iran on the horizon. Why would the government want to direct kids AWAY from joining the military? What is the bigger priority? How many ads do you see encouraging kids to go to college versus military ads?

The No Child Left Behind Act has changed the rules so that all public schools must allow military recruiters into their school just as they do higher education recruiters. The same act also forces schools to give out personal contact information of students to military recruiters if they request. The child and school cannot refuse this, only the parents can.

Quote:

A person who risks their own life to defend their country is deserving of respect in my opinion.




It is good to know that you respect Nazi's for "defending their country."

That is a very silly statement. People who sign themselves away are essentially saying "I swear to kill anyone you tell me to, regardless of the moral implications." That is the contract they sign.

Seems more foolish than wise, and certainly is no demand for respect from anyone with half a critical mind.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Registered: 06/15/02
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Re: Do you feel guilty that you aren't in Iraq? [Re: Penguarky Tunguin]
    #5707355 - 06/03/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Don't worry...the Secret Service is currently on the way over to your place to pick you up for "questioning".


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