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Offlinesoulcircus
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    #5700242 - 06/01/06 04:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Post deleted by soulcircus<p>Reason for deletion: .


Edited by soulcircus (03/31/08 06:09 AM)


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Invisiblebilly cuts
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: soulcircus]
    #5700270 - 06/01/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

First of all, there's no such thing as a "shamanic illness." What you're describing sounds more like schizophrenia or another mental illness. Being that we're in the "real world" here, I can only recommend you go to a psychologist. Good luck, sounds like you're gonna need it.


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InvisibleAtheist
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: billy cuts]
    #5700274 - 06/01/06 04:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Stop faking it you faking faker

Really tho, stop it


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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read *DELETED* [Re: Atheist]
    #5700307 - 06/01/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineCptnGarden
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: soulcircus]
    #5700345 - 06/01/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

sounds like a crock of shit to me. :shitstorm:


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Offlinesoulcircus
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read *DELETED* [Re: CptnGarden]
    #5700449 - 06/01/06 04:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: soulcircus]
    #5700476 - 06/01/06 05:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

billy cuts and spicy tuna roll can go fuck themselves.
i get so sick of people who grow shrooms yet seem to be so ignorant of what they're for.

shamanic illness IS mental illness.
being a shaman means having a mental illness by definition of the term.

shamanic illness typically, in the old times was caused by a fever, bringing hallucinations which would open ones brain to the spirit world while on the verge of death.

the same is brought on by shrooms or peyote.
but even that won't work if a person is insensitive and unloving.


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Invisiblebilly cuts
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: Telepylus]
    #5701448 - 06/01/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

First of all, I won't resort to such "loving" terms as "Go fuck yourself!"

I'm sorry Telepylus, but you're 100% wrong. I'm an anthropologist. I work with a few indigenous groups in Peru; the Chayahuita, Cocama-Cocamilla, and the Urarina. My graduate advisor studied under Schultes and Mayberry-Lewis. I'm even wary of the term shaman. There's been much debate of its use with groups other than Siberian indigenous bands.

Now, among groups like the Tukano and Jivaro in South America, there are illnesses which are "caused" by rival shamans. A shaman will enter an altered state to divine where the illness came from. Often times it's from a rival shaman's dart, which will then be sucked out (for more on this see Michael Harner's early work). Then the other shaman will often be killed.

As for your assumption about shaman's having mental illness, that's just nonsense. I've hung out with many an ayahauquero and none of them were what I would classify as being mentally ill. If anything they were more clearheaded and on top of things than the rest of the group.

And finally, your definition of "shamanic illness" is absolute nonsense. Did you get that from Invisible Landscape by the McKenna brothers? Please provide sources. What are you are spouting is New Age misinformation, created through the appropriation of various indigenous traditions - slapped together with some hallucinogens, and labeled "shamanism." Quite far from anything that is seen in the ethnographic present.


Edited by billy cuts (06/01/06 09:04 PM)


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: billy cuts]
    #5701561 - 06/01/06 09:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

billy cuts said:
First of all, I won't resort to such "loving" terms as "Go fuck yourself!"

I'm sorry Telepylus, but you're 100% wrong.  I'm an anthropologist.  I work with a few indigenous groups in Peru; the Chayahuita, Cocama-Cocamilla, and the Urarina.  My graduate advisor studied under Schultes and Mayberry-Lewis.  I'm even wary of the term shaman.  There's been much debate of its use with groups other than Siberian indigenous bands. 

Now, among groups like the Tukano and Jivaro in South America, there are illnesses which are "caused" by rival shamans.  A shaman will enter an altered state to divine where the illness came from.  Often times it's from a rival shaman's dart, which will then be sucked out (for more on this see Michael Harner's early work).  Then the other shaman will often be killed. 

As for your assumption about shaman's having mental illness, that's just nonsense.  I've hung out with many an ayahauquero and none of them were what I would classify as being mentally ill.  If anything they were more clearheaded and on top of things than the rest of the group.

And finally, your definition of "shamanic illness" is absolute nonsense.  Did you get that from Invisible Landscape by the McKenna brothers?  Please provide sources.  What are you are spouting is New Age misinformation, created through the appropriation of various indigenous traditions - slapped together with some hallucinogens, and labeled "shamanism."  Quite far from anything that is seen in the ethnographic present.




"Did you get that from Invisible Landscape by the McKenna brothers"?

I wouldnt try to bring any of mckenna's books into this. (you fucking idiot---with love).  Did you actually read the book?  True hallucinations maybe?  ANyways, they mentioned everything you are talking about and more, (go figure)

    Maybe the "thread maker" meant an illness caused by hallucinogens??  maybe??  A sacrament used by many shamans???  Why him????---type of thing.

Plenty of shamans would consider his question very valid and could help him.  So read between the lines next time.
"I can only recommend you go to a psychologist. Good luck, sounds like you're gonna need it".  <---how loving, this guy knows his shit...  Thanks for the ever so constructive shit talk.
Oh, and thanks for the history lesson...  :rolleyes:


Edited by stemmer (06/01/06 09:34 PM)


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Invisiblebilly cuts
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: stemmer]
    #5701594 - 06/01/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

stemmer said:
"Did you get that from Invisible Landscape by the McKenna brothers"?

I wouldnt try to bring any of mckenna's books into this. (you fucking idiot---with love).  Did you actually read the book?  True hallucinations maybe?  ANyways, they mentioned everything you are talking about and more, (go figure)





Please see pp. 12 - 13 of the Invisible Landscape (1975).  Also, shaman don't always come into being because of illness. That's a misconception, please read Mircae Eliade's seminal work "Shamanism" for an in depth discussion.

Quote:


Maybe the "thread maker" meant an illness caused by hallucinogens??  maybe??  A sacrament used by many shamans???  Why him????---type of thing.

Plenty of shamans would consider his question very valid and could help him.  So read between the lines next time.

Thanks for the history lesson...  :rolleyes:




Hallucinogenic illness?  Come on now...  Point me to a group that believes this to be the case.


Edited by billy cuts (06/01/06 09:37 PM)


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: billy cuts]
    #5701609 - 06/01/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Still bitching about the term shamanic illness ay?

and what groups my poignant friend?


Edited by stemmer (06/01/06 09:37 PM)


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Invisiblebilly cuts
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: stemmer]
    #5701622 - 06/01/06 09:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

stemmer said:
What groups my poignant friend?




Uh huh... That's what I'm asking you...

Oh and just remembered an excellent book on the subject of malevolent shamans - In Darkness and Secrecy by Whitehead and Wright.


Edited by billy cuts (06/01/06 09:42 PM)


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: billy cuts]
    #5701648 - 06/01/06 09:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Just go out and buy yourself a shaman.
I never said "groups", and you being the intelligent person that you are, you should be a little bit less on the lazy side when I ask you what your question is.

There are many shamans, that under the right circumstances could help this dude. This stage will likely pass for him because it is hallucinogen oriented. Any person or SHAMAN with the right knowhow and experience with hallucinogens could help him assimilate his new self with the old.
Shit man, there are national geographic articles that would shut you the hell up.
SO do you have an actual question for me that will help you further whatever point it is you are trying to make?
I already know you dont like his wording..... SO whats your problem with he and I?


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: stemmer]
    #5701661 - 06/01/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He is basically calling for help from an experienced hallucinogen user who is articulate and can help him in any way. Do you really think he expected much from this thread? Like some lagit "shaman" was going to swoop down and save his ass. NO

I would like this thread to be about the guy that needed/wanted help. Not you.


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Invisiblebilly cuts
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: stemmer]
    #5701662 - 06/01/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

stemmer said:
There are many shamans, that under the right circumstances could help this dude. This stage will likely pass for him because it is hallucinogen oriented. Any person or SHAMAN with the right knowhow and experience with hallucinogens could help him assimilate his new self with the old.




I think this is exactly what I'm talking about. What do you consider a shaman? Is Timothy Leary or Terence McKenna a shaman? Is your therapist a shaman? The kid who eats a lot of acid and talks of meeting mantids in the subway station?

Edit: I agree, I was just telling him what was really needed in the VERY beginning - to SEEK HELP from a profesional - which in our culture are doctors. If he were living in the Chambira Basin, sure, I'd tell him to go talk to a healer, but he's not. The only reason I even got into ANY of this was from Telewhatever's post calling me out directly.

Edit 2: Did you not see my very first post where I told him to seek help? I responded to Telepylus, not the OP, because he was telling me to FUCK OFF and then running with misinformation.


Edited by billy cuts (06/01/06 09:54 PM)


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: billy cuts]
    #5701682 - 06/01/06 09:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No they are not shamans. But they sure as shit could help a person out if they had been to that dark place themselves, that is, if they cared enough.

So I think you made this thread your own just because he even mentioned the word shaman. I think you missed his question, and totally missed my point which was about the way you present yourself..

Its all good he does need help. If he had a friend who was interested enough and knew alot about hallucinogens and their after effects, I would bet a long and healing conversation would take place. Thats probably what this thread is for.


Edited by stemmer (06/01/06 09:55 PM)


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: stemmer]
    #5701710 - 06/01/06 10:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

He also could be suffering from things no shaman can cure with talk or more drugs, god forbid.
His mind has changed, the drugs he is taking might help for a while but he needs to get the hell off of those.
Hallucinogenic shock does wear off.
There is always a need to get back to a sober baseline.

billy cuts....Im pretty sure I know why you said the things you did though. Its better for people to know how to separate the hallucinogenic experience from shamanism.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: stemmer]
    #5701718 - 06/01/06 10:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

when i said shamans are mentally ill
what i mean to say is
by our standards of what psychology terms mentally sound

a person who enters into the spirit world, and communicates with spiritual beings, are termed psychotic by our modern society.

shamans are technically psychotic.
your full of shit billy cuts.
and sorry about saying fuck yourself, but one turn deserves another-
you were being insensitive to Dr. J.
and that in itself proves to me, you are no authority on shamanism, like i am.


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Offlinestemmer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: Telepylus]
    #5701736 - 06/01/06 10:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So there we are.


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InvisibleEntropymancer
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Re: Those with shamen knowledge pleaase read [Re: Telepylus]
    #5701761 - 06/01/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think I'm with billy cuts on this one. I'd like to see someone provide a reference to what tribe's shamans (or ayahuasqueros, etc.) have anything resembling this "shaman's sickness". I think the only place I've heard of it was in something or other by McKenna (who, while charming, is almost as far as it gets from being a credible resource). And from talking with my anthropology prof (who has done fieldwork with several tribes in the amazonian basin), I get the impress that the view of healers, ayahuasqueros, and shamans presented popularly in the west is largely fanciful. For example, at least among the Jivaroans, when an ayahuasquero makes ayahuasca, he makes plenty of extra so that members of the tribe can consume it (which they do in a generally recreational fashion). People with particular agendas like to promote niave views of shamanism to the West, but that doesn't mean we should believe them unquestioningly.

As to the OP's problem, it does sounds serious but doesn't sound like it has anything to do with shamanism. Since I have little to no faith in medical professionals, I'd recommend guided psychedelic therapy, that old standby panacea for psychological woes.


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