Home | Community | Message Board

MushroomMan Mycology
This site includes paid links. Please support our sponsors.


Welcome to the Shroomery Message Board! You are experiencing a small sample of what the site has to offer. Please login or register to post messages and view our exclusive members-only content. You'll gain access to additional forums, file attachments, board customizations, encrypted private messages, and much more!

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

Jump to first unread post Pages: 1
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
There is no Self
    #5699068 - 06/01/06 10:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In several philosophical systems, liberation is considered knowledge of the Self: the eternal witness.

If you say that the Self is truly reality, then you're saying that there is an eternal witness, an eternal perceiver, and it is the one true reality. However, there is also the objective world of form.

How is this explaned?

Neither the Self nor the objective world are truly existent (with an inherent nature).

(arguments in form of
  • ARG: doubt from a reader
  • RES: Response)

  • ARG. 1: the Perceiver existed before the perceived
  • RES: But then there would be a perceiving subject without any object to perceive (and furthermore, the object being perceived (the objective world) has a causal structure, so the only possible explanation by the "Self theory" would be that the objective world arose simultaneously with the Perceiver, the Self (see Arg. 3)

  • ARG. 2: the perceived object existed before the Perceiving subject
  • RES: A perceived object cannot exist if there is no subject perceiving it - the term perceived object necessarily implies the presence of a perceiver.

    Thus: the perceiving subject and the perceived object cannot exist sequentially

  • ARG. 3: the Perceiver and perceived arose simultaneously
  • RES: Two things that exist simultaneously cannot have any connection or relationship with each other. They cannot have the relationship of being cause and result, for example. This is because something that arises simultaneously with something else has no opportunity to be that second thing's cause. It only arises at precisely the same time as its supposed result, so how could it have produced that result? It would have had no time to do so. It can therefore only be that things that arise simultaneously do so independent of each other.

    In this case, it would be impossible for the perceived object and the perceiving subject to be unrelated in the way that two things that come into existence simultaneously are unrelated, because the perceived object and perceiving subject are cause and result - the cause for there being a perceiving consciousness is that there is an object to perceive. If they arose simultaneously, however, they could not have such a relationship, because the perceived object would have no opportunity to cause the perceiving consciousness to arise.


Thus: there is no way that the inner and outer sources of consciousness (inner being the perceiving senses, the body, the mind, and consciousness; outer being the objects of the inner sources: the objective world) can truly occur, because they cannot occur sequentially, they cannot occur simultaneously, and there is no other possibility. So then what are they? They are mere appearances, like illusions, like e-mail, and like movies. They have no true existence.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: There is no Self [Re: dblaney]
    #5699091 - 06/01/06 10:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I like movies. :grin:  Fun ,fun ,drama, drama. Did you have a good movie before you died?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Offlinekotik
fuckingsuperhero
 User Gallery
Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 06/29/04
Posts: 3,531
Last seen: 4 years, 24 days
Re: There is no Self [Re: dblaney]
    #5699106 - 06/01/06 10:58 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

they cannot occur sequentially, they cannot occur simultaneously, and there is no other possibility. ... They have no true existence.




there is no other possibility, if you limit your possibilites to the 2 you just listed, under the assumption that time itself is a factor in the equation. However, if you disregard time, or rather refer to time as a HUMAN device to label a certain quantity of memory and anticipation.

I don't refute the topic, but if this entire thesis relies on the concept of time, but it does make me wonder which came first, the concept of time, or the concept of the self?


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: There is no Self [Re: Icelander]
    #5699166 - 06/01/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes! Thanks for asking, I saw the Da Vinci Code just the other day and it was very good and entertaining. At the beginning I thought that Tom Hanks might not have been the best actor for it, and the soundtrack seemed overly dramatic at times, but overall I liked it quite a bit.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
 User Gallery

Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
Re: There is no Self [Re: dblaney]
    #5699175 - 06/01/06 11:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

fun da mental
first you have fun
then you go mental.

very creative process.


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: There is no Self [Re: dblaney]
    #5699281 - 06/01/06 11:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
Yes! Thanks for asking, I saw the Da Vinci Code just the other day and it was very good and entertaining. At the beginning I thought that Tom Hanks might not have been the best actor for it, and the soundtrack seemed overly dramatic at times, but overall I liked it quite a bit.




I finally saw Johnny Dep in Pirates. What a hoot. It's the pirates life for me! :captain:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisibledblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
Re: There is no Self [Re: Icelander]
    #5699297 - 06/01/06 12:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Great movie! I plan on enjoying the "Dead Man's Chest" or whatever the sequal is called when it comes out.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: There is no Self [Re: dblaney]
    #5699310 - 06/01/06 12:05 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Arrrr Matey! :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Invisiblesleepy
zZzZzZzZz
Male User Gallery

Registered: 01/17/05
Posts: 3,888
Loc: Flag
Re: There is no Self [Re: dblaney]
    #5699320 - 06/01/06 12:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

u should read autobiography of a yogi 1946 version


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Male

Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: There is no Self [Re: sleepy]
    #5699329 - 06/01/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Us no self projections is sure having fun talking about shit. :grin: :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
Jump to top Pages: 1

Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


Similar ThreadsPosterViewsRepliesLast post
* Reality: Our objective, benelovent friend SkorpivoMusterion 1,314 11 11/19/05 03:04 PM
by Ped
* can you prove the existence of absolute, objective morality?
( 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 all )
Anonymous 21,744 157 12/21/04 06:31 AM
by deafpanda
* Art can be objectively compared SneezingPenis 1,193 18 11/14/07 04:51 PM
by Icelander
* an interpretation of the thousand petalled lotus
( 1 2 all )
redgreenvines 2,119 28 06/23/05 02:05 PM
by Sinbad
* Eye, Object, Angles = Distances? Gomp 648 17 01/07/05 04:00 PM
by uriahchase
* An Aristotelian Foundation for Objectivity SkorpivoMusterion 1,451 8 04/22/06 05:40 AM
by fresh313
* Multiple and simultaneous life times cleaner 866 16 03/31/04 02:11 PM
by Hahzist
* Nothing is truly simultaneous SneezingPenis 1,393 15 04/13/06 03:24 AM
by BlueCoyote

Extra information
You cannot start new topics / You cannot reply to topics
HTML is disabled / BBCode is enabled
Moderator: Middleman, DividedQuantum
871 topic views. 1 members, 6 guests and 1 web crawlers are browsing this forum.
[ Show Images Only | Sort by Score | Print Topic ]
Search this thread:

Copyright 1997-2024 Mind Media. Some rights reserved.

Generated in 0.02 seconds spending 0.006 seconds on 14 queries.