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OfflineSeussA
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: trendal]
    #5714634 - 06/05/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> (unless you add a rather huge amount of energy)

When the building fell, a huge temperature spike was created from the near instantaneous compression of air, especially in the basement area. The metal in the building was already near melting and the temperature spike went into creating the phase change from solid to liquid. The earth and rubble insulated the system, preserving hot spots.

... as I said, out a limb here. Don't underestimate how much heat a quick spike in pressure can generate. As you said, time is the enemy of this theory. (time passing allows heat to escape the system) I still think we could see a pretty good, but short lived, compression in the basement areas with the earth and rubble acting as a heat insulator. Not only would the pressure create heat, but it would also increase the partial pressure of available oxygen. The already hot jet fuel, along with the sudden availability of oxygen, would add more heat to the system as it flashed. Don't forget, we aren't melting the entire support structure of the building, but rather small areas that will coincide to the hot spots found later.

W_S, I like! Don't forget about the magnesium in the aircraft as an ignition source. I donno about the powder concrete from impact. There will be some dust, but I doubt we would see the many thousands of pounds (assumed) of concrete dust needed... maybe, donno. However, there is a lot of powdered gypsum (calcium sulfate) in drywall and a lot of drywall in an office building. Reducing a calcium "oxide" rather than iron oxide... interesting idea. What are the chances of the aluminum alloy oxidizing in the fire and "burning away" rather than melting? It would be rather ironic if the burning jet fuel, being too cool to melt steel, is also just cool enough to melt without vaporizing the aluminum alloy.


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: Seuss]
    #5714954 - 06/05/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

there is a lot of powdered gypsum (calcium sulfate) in drywall and a lot of drywall in an office building.




6 CaSO4 + 10 Al --exotherm!--> 4 Al2O3 + Al2S3 + Ca
Ca + O2/CO2/H2O --exotherm!--> CaO

Lots of interesting highly exothermic reactions. Gypsum/aluminium is a patented thermite-like formulation for the production of intense heat. The jet engine fan blades consist of huge chunks of already quite hot titanium. It takes a lot to get that going, but once it does you're getting outrageous temperatures.

Aluminium in air ignites before it volatilizes btw.

Quote:

What are the chances of the aluminum alloy oxidizing in the fire and "burning away" rather than melting?




Quite good. Rapid oxidation of aluminium is a pain in pyrotechnics because it then glows red instead of producing a dazzling illumination. But from a chem point of view, you and I know you'd still get all the kcal/gr because you're still oxidizing aluminium. If I remember correctly pure aluminium as a fuel represents its weight in 4.800'C if you oxidize/burn it. The oxygen donog hogs a lot of that heat, but its still quite hot.

The Aluminium/Magnesium/Titanium/Calcium/Silicon reactions are as close to a free ride as one can get. It needs some heat to get started but past that point it feeds off nothing but the waste gases of the jet fuel and the rubble of the building, leaving all the air to the jet fuel, and in fact even greatly enhancing the fuel burn by its awesome heat and by the release of Copper fumes from the airplane skin and wiring, which in that state is a combustion catalyst used in rockets and other fuel/oxygen systems.

The alleged metallic puddles might have resulted from localized (thermite-like) hotspots or even be aircraft aluminium instead of iron.


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Edited by Asante (06/05/06 01:08 PM)


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: Seuss]
    #5715030 - 06/05/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Hypothesis: Controlled demolition.

Planes have hit skyscrapers before at top speed. They just punched holes in the side of them and caused fires. The buildings don't just collapse like that. The World Trade Towers especially, were built to withstand very extreme conditions and natural disasters. And they collapsed to the ground within 10-15 seconds.. freefall speed. Very much in the fashion of controlled demolitions. Couple that with the hundreds of eyewitness reports from everyone ranging to school teachers to police officers, they they heard simultaneous explosions in the buildings, well after the planes hit. Not to mention that 90% of the steel was hauled away from ground zero without examination and sent to salvage yards. There was little to none investigation or forensic engineering analysis. So the irreplacable physical evidence was quickly and quietly destroyed.

Of course, I'm no engineer. Nor a rocket scientist. But not an idiot either. Tin foil hat not necessary.


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InvisibleShroomismM
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: Shroomism]
    #5715151 - 06/05/06 02:03 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)



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Invisiblesleepy
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: Shroomism]
    #5716175 - 06/05/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

the pressure would not have increased much. the building was full of windows so any pressure increase is instantaneously released. its not like a test tube or whatever scientists create pressurized environments in.

i haven't studied this at all but is this true?


also shouldn't there be infrared video of the collapse that would show the temperature increase? doesn't the FDNY have infrared to look into buildings?


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InvisibleBrainiac
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: sleepy]
    #5716826 - 06/05/06 09:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:imo:Hes a Little
:cuckoo: :cuckoo: :cuckoo: :cuckoo: :cuckoo: :cuckoo:


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Edited by Brainiac (06/05/06 09:35 PM)


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: Brainiac]
    #5717933 - 06/06/06 04:35 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> so any pressure increase is instantaneously released.

Incorrect. Air cannot move instantaneously. The movement of air is governed by the laws of physics. Air is a fluid, just like water, and it must push other stuff out of its way in order to occupy that space (or it must squeeze closer together with other stuff, known as compression). Because the buildings footprint was so large, and the rate of fall so quick, the air would be compressed by the falling structure before it had a chance to move out of the way. This is fact. The question is how much compression will be seen and how much heat will be generated by the compression. It may be next to none or it may be massive. That is what we are discussing: the effect of the increase in pressure, the effect of the increase in partial pressure of oxygen, and how the hot jet fuel would react over the tiny window of time during and immediately after the collapse.

Shroomism, I am really trying to keep this discussion on the science of the collapse. For the sake of this discussion I don't care if Bush himself walked into the building with a bomb strapped to his back. For this discussion, assume that all of the conspiracy stuff is false. This is not a pro/con conspiracy debate. The idea is to see if the evidence we are assuming was found can be explained through the physics of what we saw happen. Rather than post and repost all the BS from conspiracy sites, are are brainstorming new and innovative ideas that might explain some of what happened.

I'm the first person I have heard talk about pressure as a source of heat. W_S is the first person I have heard talk about the plane itself and the building material mixing to form a thermite reaction. We are not claiming these theories are correct, accurate, or anything else... only that they are possibilities.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: WTC / Molten "steel" / Science discussion (no tinfoil hat BS) [Re: Seuss]
    #5718412 - 06/06/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

We are not claiming these theories are correct, accurate, or anything else... only that they are possibilities.




with complete, and utter respect for the intentions of this thread:

:poop:

Quote:

The object of oratory alone is not truth, but persuasion. - Lord Macaulay




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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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