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porcupine
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question for buddhists
#5696866 - 05/31/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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in buddhism, what happens if a being continues to create lots and lots of negative karma in every lifetime and never reaches enlightenment? does it continue to reincarnate forever or does it eventually get recycled?
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: porcupine]
#5696873 - 05/31/06 09:34 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Plastic or paper?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5696875 - 05/31/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Buddhists believe eventually all beings will reach enlightenment.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5696878 - 05/31/06 09:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are you worried.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Mezcal
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5696975 - 05/31/06 09:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: The Buddhists believe eventually all beings will reach enlightenment.
Except for Joshu's Dog.
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dblaney
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Mezcal]
#5697061 - 05/31/06 10:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Don't be silly!
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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leery11
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: dblaney]
#5697217 - 05/31/06 10:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well the thing is once you fall below human you cannot intentionally cultivate bad karma, of course you do because you are drawn by your whims without a mind to keep you from acting on them.....
but being lower than a human is like automatically burning up really bad karma....
it's really only the humans or maybe above humans that could do such a thing dliberately.... and they would not retain the persistent consciousness between lifetimes necessary to choose to deliberately commit bad karma.
so i dunno. we all become Buddhas/Enlightened eventually. We just have to water the right seeds and pull out the weeds.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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MushmanTheManic
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: porcupine]
#5697231 - 05/31/06 10:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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The Bodhisattva eventually run out of patience and cast the being out of existence using a fourteen dollar Official Nerdle Wombanger Non-Existence Sticker.
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porcupine
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so buddhists truly believe that all beings attain enlightenment? can anyone here who has studied a lot of buddhism verify this? what about in hinduism?
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: porcupine]
#5697371 - 05/31/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Ask Ped or Sinbad.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5697563 - 05/31/06 11:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wasn't buddha just a man, like anyone else, that created a philsophy, is his definition of this so called karma so important that we also have to worry about shit thats beyond us. I thought buddha's only concerned themselves with things they only actually knew.
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: capliberty]
#5698783 - 06/01/06 08:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't think Buddha concerned himself with these kinds of questions. He left that for the religion they created around his teachings.
Here an interesting insight into this. I got involved with and finally taught a specialized form of Martial Art that was very direct and never showy, but deadly effective. It had few principles and physical moves compared to other Martial Arts. We had trouble keeping students because of this. Most wanted fantasy and moves they could show their friends; they wanted belts so they could talk about their rank, and some forms they could show to their friends. Finally the head instructor had to add some of these things, just to keep enough students to pay the bills. Think about this.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (06/01/06 08:51 AM)
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capliberty
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5698814 - 06/01/06 08:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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So what was the insight into this martial art?
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: capliberty]
#5698818 - 06/01/06 08:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said: So what was the insight into this martial art?
WTF are you talking about? The insight is into religions and how they form.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5698835 - 06/01/06 09:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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You comparing it to there motives of stature, Yeah I did a year of
TKD, Our teacher was fourth degree black belt, flawless in form, we
didn't care about belts and rank, our class was pretty small, and
our skill usually surpassed our belt rank, I was a green belt, but
fought more like a blue belt, we would go into tournaments and whoop
everyones ass, having a small class was a benefit because everyone
got the personal attention they needed to succeed.
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: capliberty]
#5698840 - 06/01/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with my post or this thread.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5698859 - 06/01/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I undersand the anology, with the martial arts class and religion
the motives of vanity are the same, so thats why each of them grew
to something blown out of proportion, instead of the core principles
being focused on, it grew into something to satisfy each persons
ego, and status, this is basically society today, which I fucking
hate
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: capliberty]
#5698961 - 06/01/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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More or less what I was getting at.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: capliberty]
#5698998 - 06/01/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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optimism in buddhism: intelligence slowly improves karma given time more shit happens but things slowly get better.
pessimsm in buddhism: meditate or you will be hit with a big stick
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_ 🧠_
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dblaney
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Quote:
redgreenvines said: pessimsm in buddhism: meditate or you will be hit with a big stick
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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notleaf
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: dblaney]
#5699120 - 06/01/06 11:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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thank god for that big stick
-------------------- "Woo haw!"
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leery11
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: notleaf]
#5699702 - 06/01/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes Buddhists truely believe every being becomes a Buddha.
but generally you must be a human to cultivate.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/01/06 01:36 PM)
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porcupine
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: leery11]
#5699919 - 06/01/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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so what if everytime you are a human, you do everything in your power to prevent yourself from becomming enlightened? how could you become a buddha against your will?
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Icelander
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: porcupine]
#5699935 - 06/01/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It takes longer.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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SDP
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: leery11]
#5699966 - 06/01/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I despise how anti buddhist this thread is 
Not really. BUT, as said by some dude one time:
What now is the noble truth of the orgin of suffering? It is craving. Delightful and pleasureable things, eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind, there this craving arises and takes root. Visual objects, sounds, smells, tastes, bodily impressions, and mind objects are delightful and pleasurable; there this craving arises and takes root. Conciousness, sense impression, feeling born of sense impression, perception, will, craving, thinking, and reflection are delightful and pleasureable; there this craving arises and takes root.
I see, so craving, thinking, and reflection are delightful and pleasureable, and there craving arises and takes root.
I mean thinking and reflection are what made us buddhist to begin with (those that were non buddhists)... but yea... its still a valid thought... 
-SDP
-------------------- Teonanacatl, open up my eyes This sacrament, this prayer, beyond the world of lies Guide me clearly through that which I dont understand Give me strength to find the path Help me fight any demons as you flow through me wholely This is my prayer, that you protect me from evil, and bring me closer to peace And open up my eyes, so i can see things as you do Amen
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redgreenvines
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: SDP]
#5700118 - 06/01/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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but what is craving? is it not a kind of focussing, or latching on so as to filter distractions. latching on to some thing that arizes and holds attention seems to be the key to suffering, as opposed to keeping up a rhythm of revisiting general awareness and frequent peripheral sensitivity. well a little suffering might not be that bad, actually, especially if you get to really indulge in something very tasty.
--------------------
_ 🧠_
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Octavius
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I can see those who search for enlightenment are farther away from finding it, then the people who aren't searching and stumble across it. Like searching for something one cannot see, compared to not searching and becoming a part of the flow of life, not by accident though, by going with the flow.
We are all human, we can experience enlightenment at times, but does it stay with us. For when we see it, it comes to us from a strange distance to only pass by a little later. Like if there is only a temporary balance of enlightenment and not a permanent flow.
But one can try his hardest to become enlightened and once reaching it must practice hard to keep it with you, for it fades from the light into the dark.
Peace, Octavius
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leery11
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: porcupine]
#5701001 - 06/01/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
porcupine said: so what if everytime you are a human, you do everything in your power to prevent yourself from becomming enlightened? how could you become a buddha against your will?
you aren't asking the right questions.
you cannot do that unless you remember all your past lives. All you know is WAHHHHH I'M A BABY... I WANT TO SURVIVE... I WANT TO FEEL GOOD, I WANT COMFORT....
so if in one life you deliberately strive to deface the Dharma then sure you will be screwed for a while. Then when you're a human again it's not like you remember "okay I went down to hell then back up through the animal kingdom to being a human again and I still want to send myself back down there."
It doesn't work that way. To the Buddhists there is no such thing as self. Self is an illusion and completely formless. If you are able to maintain a general base consciousness between lives it means you are already on the track to enlightenment and will simply want to avoid suffering.
To the Buddhists all become a Buddha, so your question is not particularly answerable. You would be placed into a life where the only rational choice you could make would be to cultivate merits and work on enlightenment, and there would be no YOU to object and say "bahhh no i want to suffer more!"
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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porcupine
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: leery11]
#5702679 - 06/02/06 02:01 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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you dont understand, im not saying you have to do it consciously from life to life. im saying what if you just happened to do it by chance. in every life we have, there are choices we make. im saying what if in every life time you happened to make the wrong choices. suppose everytime you were born, you killed yourself as soon as you could and at every oppurtunity you chose to believe lies rather than the dharma. at this rate you would never become enlightened. i don't buy the idea that all beings eventually become enlightened and i wanted to see if there was a buddhist here to discuss this with.
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SDP
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: porcupine]
#5703378 - 06/02/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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At the risk of sounding too "out there" i would propose an alternate theory. One that suggest that we probably are not on the first evolution of intelligent life on this planet.... and that there are 2 distinct areas of existance, physical and metaphysical... By nature of duality (matter, antimatter) b/c one exists, the other has to, and therefore there will always be a physcial world with bodies for souls to occupy. I do believe, through constantly building negative karma, one could very litterly remain trapped in the cycle of suffering. Building negative karma life after life will not casue the entity to cease to exist (The Jain's know this, its about karma particles)... however, that entity will "go to hell" where they will spend eternity. What is hell you ask? Hell IS the permenent cycle of suffering... Something can not cease to exist, however it CAN cease to exist w/o suffering, therefore it can also exist solely of suffering... which, to me, is what hell is.
So by definition, your negative-karma-gatherer is already in hell, that is, indefinately attached to the physical world, and ind0000bioulsy doomed to suffer for the rest of their existance. 
http://www.angelfire.com/co/jainism/6substns.html
-SDP  Buddhist thats slowly turning Jain
-------------------- Teonanacatl, open up my eyes This sacrament, this prayer, beyond the world of lies Guide me clearly through that which I dont understand Give me strength to find the path Help me fight any demons as you flow through me wholely This is my prayer, that you protect me from evil, and bring me closer to peace And open up my eyes, so i can see things as you do Amen
Edited by SDP (06/02/06 09:49 AM)
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fireworks_god
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: SDP]
#5705025 - 06/02/06 06:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
SDP said: -SDP  Buddhist thats slowly turning Jain
The Jain's Death
Click the title and read through, totally sweet. 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Also, Icelander needs to ensure that he reads through that as well... he'll be suprised to find out the reasoning for why they only eat fruits... makes sense from a lot of perspectives, apparently! 
And here I am munching on popcorn... Well, popcorn is sort of like a fruit...
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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fireworks_god
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Guess not, its a seed, and I shouldn't be eating seeds... 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
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Icelander has read this before. Icelander doesn't buy it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
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Quote:
fireworks_god said: Guess not, its a seed, and I shouldn't be eating seeds... 
 Peace.
You're totally fucked dude.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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fireworks_god
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Re: question for buddhists [Re: Icelander]
#5705094 - 06/02/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not as fucked as you! 
 Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
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Nobody gets fucked as much as I do.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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