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InvisibleVvellum
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Registered: 05/24/04
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US troops kill pregnant woman
    #5695902 - 05/31/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed

Quote:

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives."




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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5695925 - 05/31/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

it's too bad her brother didn't die instead, saying he wants Allah to kill Americans.


--------------------
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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5695968 - 05/31/06 06:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060531/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_women_killed

Quote:

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans. It was not until they shot the two bullets that killed my sister and cousin that I stopped," he said. "God take revenge on the Americans and those who brought them here. They have no regard for our lives."








Well thankfully God isn't real and no revenge will be brought by Allah. And thankfully our troops have bigger dicks to shoot lead with at people.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: downforpot]
    #5695985 - 05/31/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

guess she should have been paying attention...they set up signs and have humvees set up at these checkpoints, she made some kind of threatening action toward the troops so the engaged and destroyed the threat


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OfflineBasilides
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #5696081 - 05/31/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

blacksabbathrulz said:
it's too bad her brother didn't die instead, saying he wants Allah to kill Americans.




You have to wonder why they want Allah to kill them in the first place.


--------------------


"Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5696234 - 05/31/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

snoopaloop53 said:
guess she should have been paying attention...they set up signs and have humvees set up at these checkpoints, she made some kind of threatening action toward the troops so the engaged and destroyed the threat




FUCK 'SAVING AMERICAN LIVES'...threat my ass..they did it to prove a point...EDIT ..and fuck isreal too..who have been known to employ similar methods...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


Edited by Annapurna1 (05/31/06 07:45 PM)


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5697087 - 05/31/06 10:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

U.S. forces killed two Iraqi women ... when the troops shot at a car that failed to stop at an observation post ...

The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.


"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans.




So you drive your car through an observation post at full speed, you make no attempt to slow down despite repeated warnings, ...and you act surprised if you get shot at?

It is too bad that she was shot, but what do you expect?


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5697137 - 05/31/06 10:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

...he said there were no warnings.


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5697531 - 05/31/06 11:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The U.S. military said coalition troops fired at a car after it entered a clearly marked prohibited area near an observation post but failed to stop despite repeated visual and auditory warnings.




Who are we to believe?

The guy driving the car admitted that he was driving full speed, so I can see how it was easy to miss the warnings he was given.


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Offlinefaslimy
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5697613 - 06/01/06 12:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:

Who are we to believe?






clearly you have decided


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5697619 - 06/01/06 12:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Now that's what I call a deterrent to speeding. Good thing I'm in the good ol USA where I can drive over 100mph and not get shot over it.

And as for Annapurna1 , well, I don't know how to answer your kind.


--------------------



http://www.myspace.com/4th25


"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5697878 - 06/01/06 01:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Who are we to believe?




well, I am among the many who trust the US military, admin, and PR less and less.

another example of dishonesty and cover-ups: http://msnbc.msn.com/id/13071849/


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5698001 - 06/01/06 01:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So you drive your car through an observation post at full speed, you make no attempt to slow down despite repeated warnings, ...and you act surprised if you get shot at?


What were these "repeated warnings"? A sign half a mile back that was put up that morning? A soldier shouting "Stop you fucking raghead" in english at the car from 50 yards away?

It is too bad that she was shot, but what do you expect?

If you can't setup a checkpoint in a competent enough manner that you can't avoid shooting pregnant women then you shouldn't be setting up checkpoints.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5698489 - 06/01/06 04:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

If you can't setup a checkpoint in a competent enough manner that you can't avoid shooting pregnant women then you shouldn't be setting up checkpoints.




When setting up a checkpoint, the soldiers worry about making the checkpoint safe for them. It would be asinine to expect soldiers to be able to anticipate every single possible tiny little thing that might happen and to have a perfect plan in place to handle any odd event. We are talking soldiers here, not rocket scientists.

Soldiers are not meant to be police. They are trained to kill and to win wars. Soldiers should not be setting up police style checkpoints, because innocent people are going to be killed when they do. It isn't the soldiers fault, but the politicians that are trying to turn them into a police force. That being said, the driver of the car has only himself to blame for the death of his sister and cousin. Had he been driving in a reasonable manner, and paying attention, then he would not have started the chain of events that led to a death.


--------------------
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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5698561 - 06/01/06 06:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
So you drive your car through an observation post at full speed, you make no attempt to slow down despite repeated warnings, ...and you act surprised if you get shot at?


What were these "repeated warnings"? A sign half a mile back that was put up that morning? A soldier shouting "Stop you fucking raghead" in english at the car from 50 yards away?

It is too bad that she was shot, but what do you expect?

If you can't setup a checkpoint in a competent enough manner that you can't avoid shooting pregnant women then you shouldn't be setting up checkpoints.





If you cannot properly drive a vehicle, don't fucking drive. There is no surprise, that there are numerous checkpoints throughout the country. If the situations we reversed, I would make sure that I knew were every little checkpoint was. Just this memorial day weekend, I knew were every "Safety Checkpoint" was in my area, and there is not even a war going on around here........


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5698741 - 06/01/06 08:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

If you cannot properly drive a vehicle, don't fucking drive

They didn't die from not being driven correctly. They died from being shot.

If the situations we reversed, I would make sure that I knew were every little checkpoint was.

Easy to say when you're trying to get your pregnant wife to hospital as fast as you can. You don't generally have time to call the american army and ask them where they have their checkpoints this morning. Presumably they wouldn't tell you anyway.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5698964 - 06/01/06 10:02 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> They didn't die from not being driven correctly. They died from being shot.

Had they been driving correctly, they would not have been shot, therefore, by transitive property, they were killed because of driving incorrectly. If you want to get really technical, they didn't die from getting shot, but from some complication resulting from getting shot.

> Easy to say when you're trying to get your pregnant wife to hospital as fast as you can.

Assumption. Nowhere did I read anything about a hospital, let alone a wife. Cousin and sister. This isn't Arkansas.


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5699007 - 06/01/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It says it in the first couple paragraphs in the article.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5699216 - 06/01/06 11:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> It says it in the first couple paragraphs in the article.

Doh!  My bad.  I read the article early this morning, and did a search on this thread for "hospital".  I forgot that the article wasn't copied, just the link.  Somebody must have slapped me with a stupid stick today 'cause I keep making boneheaded mistakes.  Thanks for the correction, and for not rubbing it in.  :wink:


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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5699245 - 06/01/06 11:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

No problem. I missed it the first time I read the article, so I figured others would do the same.


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5699808 - 06/01/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Had they been driving correctly, they would not have been shot, therefore, by transitive property, they were killed because of driving incorrectly.




Actually, if you wanted to get technical, wouldn't one say that this death is a result of us invading iraq in the first place? For if we had not invaded, they wouldn't have been shot at the non-existent checkpoint. If your looking for root causes you have to look their first. Trigger happy checkpoint guards is a direct result of the iraq invasion and the reasons for that invasion have changed so many times who really knows for sure why but those who ordered it.

And anyone who attempts to list reasons for this war spare me, we've all seen them and those of us with half a brain remember the "real" reason at the begining which turned out to be bullshit  :tongue:


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5700106 - 06/01/06 03:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RosettaStoned said:
Quote:

Had they been driving correctly, they would not have been shot, therefore, by transitive property, they were killed because of driving incorrectly.




Actually, if you wanted to get technical, wouldn't one say that this death is a result of us invading iraq in the first place? For if we had not invaded, they wouldn't have been shot at the non-existent checkpoint. If your looking for root causes you have to look their first. Trigger happy checkpoint guards is a direct result of the iraq invasion and the reasons for that invasion have changed so many times who really knows for sure why but those who ordered it.

And anyone who attempts to list reasons for this war spare me, we've all seen them and those of us with half a brain remember the "real" reason at the begining which turned out to be bullshit  :tongue:





These "trigger happy guards" are men in a real difficult situation. They are told of the rules of engagement, when a speeding vehicle is approaching a check point, it most be stopped. Need I mention what has happened in the past with speeding car bombs and dead Marines?
This is a bad situation, imagine being the Marine who was ordered to pull the trigger?????


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5700470 - 06/01/06 05:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It is a bad situation indeed. It's just too bad that we left the piece of shit in office that started this mess when he himself was too pussy to even serve in viet nam.

I fault those who got us into this mess, the soldiers truly believe they are serving the "country" weather they are or not.


--------------------
"Government big enough to provide you with all you need is also big enough to take everything you have." ~ Thomas Jefferson

"Without stupid, faggy potheads we wouldn't have wars." - Zappa


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: RosettaStoned]
    #5700622 - 06/01/06 05:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

it doesn't surprise me if a few pregnant women get killed.

i trace the whole war back to the fact that people don't honor their mothers.

in that breath, maybe if you loved your mother a little more, the war would've never started in the first place.

i know what you're thinking, "how can you connect the war to something like not loving womanhood"?

give it some thought.

maybe if people cared about pregnancy and parenting and honoring their mothers, war would be impossible

what's the root of greed?
what's the root of violence?
(dishonoring women & children)
and don't get me wrong, women are just as guilty as men in this.


--------------------

Law of Love


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5701279 - 06/01/06 08:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

>> imagine being the Marine who was ordered to pull the trigger?????

"ordered" is a big reason why ppl become trigger happy in the first place...because they can pass the blame on to whomever gave the order..which ultimately passes to the commander-in-chief..and then diffuses into his electorate of 59 million...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5701486 - 06/01/06 09:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
>> imagine being the Marine who was ordered to pull the trigger?????

"ordered" is a big reason why ppl become trigger happy in the first place...because they can pass the blame on to whomever gave the order..which ultimately passes to the commander-in-chief..and then diffuses into his electorate of 59 million...





You have no concept of being in a dangerous environment.....if you have experience, please divulge.....soldiers or Marines do not make policy (something that was forgotten during the Vietnam era) Do I think that this is a fucked up situation?

Of course. What you define as "trigger happy" is nothing more then a response (in most cases in an armed conflict) to a deadly situation, in which you might not know if you will make it home.

What would you do? Not Shoot!!!!??????????


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5701870 - 06/01/06 10:39 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

now let me get this straight ..first you said that somebody "ordered" the marine to pull the trigger..and then this person that gave the order just mysteriously disappears in your next post :wtf:...which one is it??...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Offlinegregorio
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5702847 - 06/02/06 03:30 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:

"ordered" is a big reason why ppl become trigger happy in the first place...




This isnt a case of "trigger happy" marines itching for somebody to shoot. It was asked earlier and I'll ask it again; What would you do if you were in that situation, not shoot?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5703040 - 06/02/06 06:55 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> What would you do if you were in that situation, not shoot?

Me, sitting on the couch, watching CNN, judging others... not shoot.

Me, a soldier in Iraq, crazy suicide bombers all around... shoot.


--------------------
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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5703223 - 06/02/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
now let me get this straight ..first you said that somebody "ordered" the marine to pull the trigger..and then this person that gave the order just mysteriously disappears in your next post :wtf:...which one is it??...





WTF? What do you mean? Marines fire when ordered, this can come from a NCO or a commisioned officer.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5703295 - 06/02/06 08:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So you're telling me the marines can't think of a method of setting up a roadblock/checkpoint without shooting dead someone trying to get a pregnant women to hospital?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5703338 - 06/02/06 09:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So you're telling me the marines can't think of a method of setting up a roadblock/checkpoint without shooting dead someone trying to get a pregnant women to hospital?




I cannot think of a way to setup a roadblock/checkpoint in an area where suicide bombers crash speeding cars filled with explosives into the checkpoint in such a way that non-suicide bombers that speed towards the checkpoint won't be shot at and potentially killed.


--------------------
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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5703339 - 06/02/06 09:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well maybe they shouldn't be setup in the first place then.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5703350 - 06/02/06 09:17 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Well maybe they shouldn't be setup in the first place then.





Or maybe the Iraqis should not be traveling at high speeds towards checkpoints. This is not the first time this has happened.....


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5703407 - 06/02/06 09:52 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

where suicide bombers crash speeding cars filled with explosives into the checkpoint

Is this really what suicide bombers do? Isn't the idea of a suicide bomber to kill as many americans as possible? The last suicide bomber I heard about was parked up at the checkpoint, smiling and beckoning soldiers over to his car before he blew it up.

I would've thought driving at the checkpoint at high speed would be the last thing a suicide bomber would do as it gives the americans a chance to get out of the way.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5703408 - 06/02/06 09:54 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Or maybe the Iraqis should not be traveling at high speeds towards checkpoints

So if you make a mistake in identifying an american checkpoint when you're trying to get your sister to hospital it's a capital offence?

No. I think the best thing is not to set up a checkpoint if you can't avoid clusterfucks like this.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5703465 - 06/02/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Or maybe the Iraqis should not be traveling at high speeds towards checkpoints

So if you make a mistake in identifying an american checkpoint when you're trying to get your sister to hospital it's a capital offence?

No. I think the best thing is not to set up a checkpoint if you can't avoid clusterfucks like this.




From a historical perspective:

http://www.beirut-memorial.org/history/embassy.html


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5703485 - 06/02/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What relevance does your link have to this thread?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5703554 - 06/02/06 10:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5703562 - 06/02/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

if you don't want to kill pregnant women
don't join the military


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5703576 - 06/02/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> Well maybe they shouldn't be setup in the first place then.

That wasn't your question.  :wink:  Of course, if you follow the logic, then we shouldn't be in Iraq in the first place, let alone setting up checkpoints...  *shrug*

But, we are there... and unfortunately, when soldiers and weapons are involved, there are going to be civilian casualties.  I'm not saying that I like it or approve, but it is a simple fact of warfare.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5703685 - 06/02/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

cant more secure checkpoints be set up? checkpoints that are safe for everyone involved?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5703730 - 06/02/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:

"ordered" is a big reason why ppl become trigger happy in the first place...




This isnt a case of "trigger happy" marines itching for somebody to shoot. It was asked earlier and I'll ask it again; What would you do if you were in that situation, not shoot?




no..you dont shoot..let alone start a war..unless theres an iminent threat..which there wasnt...and given the long pattern of trigger-happy (NYTIMES) episodes in iraq..this is more likely than not yet another case of trigger-happy...for that matter..the war itself is a case of trigger-happy...


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5703761 - 06/02/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> cant more secure checkpoints be set up? checkpoints that are safe for everyone involved?

No. That is the problem.


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5704476 - 06/02/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.





:thumbup:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5704642 - 06/02/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.




The two situations arn't comparable.

When you're driving into a checkpoint at speed the soldiers have time and space to take cover and fire at you. If you're driving into a building full of soldiers there's no need to approach it carefully as the soldiers can't get out anyway.

I'm just questioning this idea that if a car speeds towards a checkpoint it must be a suicide bomber. A suicide bomber wants to kill as many soldiers as possible. I would have thought speeding towards a checkpoint and giving everyone plenty of time to take cover completely defeats the object of the exercise.


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5704726 - 06/02/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there are hundreds, if not thousands of checkpoints set up in iraq everyday. some are more reinforced checkpoints that are "safer" for everyone, some are improvised checkpoints that are set up at random times and places so as not to be predictable. if they were all the more fortified kind then it would be even easier to smuggle things through the country.

now i'm sure all of you that are criticizing these men for killing people because they were threatened are ready to show the rest of us how to set up more "safer" checkpoints. with your vast tactical and intimate local knowledge of what is going on i'm sure you will share with us what to correct in order to accomplish the mission


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5704760 - 06/02/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

there are hundreds, if not thousands of checkpoints set up in iraq everyday

Any idea what purpose they serve? Is it more important than a single innocent life?

with your vast tactical and intimate local knowledge of what is going on

I'm not sure machine-gunning pregnant women would convince too many people that you had intimate local knowledge. If they can't do better than that then it's time to go home.


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5705091 - 06/02/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

gregorio said:

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans.




So you drive your car through an observation post at full speed, you make no attempt to slow down despite repeated warnings,




regardless of warnings, they knew there was a check point, I'm sure the high velocity killing maching they were driving was percieved as a threat, in
the same situation, I'd have done much more than kill the one woman.



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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5705106 - 06/02/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I'm not sure machine-gunning pregnant women would convince too many people that you had intimate local knowledge. If they can't do better than that then it's time to go home.




how are they supposed to know the sex and condition of the occupats of a speeding
vehicle, with all the car bombs that hit buildings and busses, they did the right thing


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5705115 - 06/02/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.




The two situations arn't comparable.

When you're driving into a checkpoint at speed the soldiers have time and space to take cover and fire at you. If you're driving into a building full of soldiers there's no need to approach it carefully as the soldiers can't get out anyway.

I'm just questioning this idea that if a car speeds towards a checkpoint it must be a suicide bomber. A suicide bomber wants to kill as many soldiers as possible. I would have thought speeding towards a checkpoint and giving everyone plenty of time to take cover completely defeats the object of the exercise.





You are wrong. The suicide bomber in Beirut, first had to speed through a checkpoint before hitting his objective (see link below). The slower you go through the checkpoint, the MORE time Marines have to zero on you with their 240 Gulfs and SAWs (I am speaking from experience) That is why suicide bombers hit the throttle and swerve while attempting to breach the checkpoint. Causing less of a reaction time for the Marines, and taking their aim off with erratic movements.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_2_91/ai_108912864

At 6 a.m. on Sunday, Oct. 23, 1983, Dave Madaras awoke to another sweltering day in Beirut, Lebanon. Madaras was a fire direction controller for C Btry., 1st Bn., 10th Marines. His unit had arrived in Beirut and became part of the Multi-National Peacekeeping Force (MNF).

Marines, together with the French and Italians, had formed a force to keep peace in the capital. However, since the fall of 1982, after 700-800 Palestinians were massacred in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, the MNF was there to stay.

To Marines like Madaras, the politics were irrelevant. The situation in the war-torn city had escalated, and the Marines had come under intense fire from the various factions.

As he laced his boots, Madaras glanced around the tent and saw that everyone was still dozing. He decided to stretch out on his cot to grab a few more minutes of precious sleep before breakfast.

At 6:22, Madaras and the others were suddenly awakened by a huge blast. "The explosion's sound was ear-shattering," he recalled, "carrying a concussion that ripped the tent from its steel anchor, buried it in asphalt, and an accompanying rush of heat that seared my face."

Unknown to the Leathernecks, a suicide bomber had driven a truck into the Battalion Landing Team's (BLT) headquarters building. According to Victor Ostrovsky and Claire their book By Way of Deception: "A large Mercedes truck the Beirut airport, passing well within sight of the Israeli in their nearby base, going through a Lebanese army checkpoint and turning left into the parking lot.

"A U.S. Marine guard reported with alarm that the truck was gathering speed, but before he could do anything, the truck roared through the entrance of the four-story reinforced concrete Aviation Safety Building ...

"[Then] passing through a wrought iron gate, hitting the sandbagged guard post, smashing through another barrier, and ramming over a wall of sandbags into the lobby, exploding with such a terrific force that the building was instantly reduced to rubble."


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5705180 - 06/02/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Any idea what purpose they serve? Is it more important than a single innocent life?

yes, they serve to try and control the flow of the insurgency and thier weapons throughout the country. an american marine isn't an innocent life? or should we consult you to decide which lives are innocent...i mean that's ok if it's your call it'll make everyone else's life easier


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5705202 - 06/02/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

why is a marine not an innocent life?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5705859 - 06/02/06 10:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
What relevance does your link have to this thread?




Quote:

The two situations arn't comparable.




Your joking right?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5705880 - 06/02/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:

no..you dont shoot..let alone start a war..unless theres an iminent threat..which there wasnt...




I can agree with you on the first part but I am in total disagreement in your belief that there wasn't any imminent threat.

Alot of this does go back to the Beirut Marine barracks bombing. Every since that day the Marines regard anybody running a checkpoint at a high rate of speed as a suicide bomber who is on a mission to murder.

They haven't forgotten that day and they never will. And they damn sure aint going to let anything like that happen again.

I don't understand how you think a car running a checkpoint at full speed is not an imminent threat.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5706073 - 06/02/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

> Alot of this does go back to the Beirut Marine barracks bombing.

Not realy. A lot of this does go back to "yesterday" when the speeding car heading towards the checkpoint was filled with exposives.

> They haven't forgotten that day and they never will.

Management perhaps, but the guys in the field base their reaction off of the first hand experience they are getting every single day, not off some story they read or heard about from others.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5706457 - 06/03/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You are wrong. The suicide bomber in Beirut, first had to speed through a checkpoint before hitting his objective (see link below). The slower you go through the checkpoint, the MORE time Marines have to zero on you with their 240 Gulfs and SAWs

No they're still different situations. If all the americans are in a building behind the checkpoint then driving at full speed to get through the checkpoint to reach the building is worth a try.

However, if the only thing behind the checkpoint is desert and all the americans have time to take cover while you are driving at speed towards the checkpoint then it defeats the object of the exercise.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect a suicide bomber to do at a makeshift checkpoint:

A suicide bomber killed up to five Americans at a US checkpoint on the main road north of Najaf, in southern Iraq.

A taxi stopped close to the checkpoint, and the driver waved for help. Five soldiers approached the car, and it exploded, according to US Army Captain Andrew Wallace, who added the victims were part of the Army's 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division.





http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/032903_suicide_bomber_kills_american_so.htm


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5706469 - 06/03/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
What relevance does your link have to this thread?




Quote:

The two situations arn't comparable.




Your joking right?




Nope. Try thinking about it. There is a checkpoint with a dozen american soldiers 200 yards in front of you. Your only weapon is a bomb in the back of the car. What is the best way of killing as many of them as you can?

Putting your foot down and driving tyres screeching at them for 200 yards so they all have plenty of time to take cover? Or driving up to them normally?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5706975 - 06/03/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you're correct. the insurgents will adapt and soon enough these checkpoints will become less and less of a good idea (if they were ever a good idea in the first place).


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5707248 - 06/03/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You are wrong. The suicide bomber in Beirut, first had to speed through a checkpoint before hitting his objective (see link below). The slower you go through the checkpoint, the MORE time Marines have to zero on you with their 240 Gulfs and SAWs

No they're still different situations. If all the americans are in a building behind the checkpoint then driving at full speed to get through the checkpoint to reach the building is worth a try.

However, if the only thing behind the checkpoint is desert and all the americans have time to take cover while you are driving at speed towards the checkpoint then it defeats the object of the exercise.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect a suicide bomber to do at a makeshift checkpoint:

A suicide bomber killed up to five Americans at a US checkpoint on the main road north of Najaf, in southern Iraq.

A taxi stopped close to the checkpoint, and the driver waved for help. Five soldiers approached the car, and it exploded, according to US Army Captain Andrew Wallace, who added the victims were part of the Army's 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division.





http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/032903_suicide_bomber_kills_american_so.htm





You are describing a different engagement. The above situation is a road side bomb. Even thought the bomb is in the car, the car is merely deceiving the attack, not acting as the propulsion for it. The above situation is tragic, however, no mass amount of troop concentrations will be eliminated, unlike a bomb with wheels.


This check point, (or better described as an observation point), blocks more then just "empty desert". The terrain is a strategic staging area that has been secured in an area were the violence has been some of the worst in the war.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5707801 - 06/03/06 03:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

They should start buying mclarens to speed through checkpoints, I'm sure they can afford it.


--------------------



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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5710558 - 06/04/06 09:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

bi0 said:
the insurgents will adapt




they've been using the same tactics for more than 30 years, they seem to be quite slow at adaptation


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5710675 - 06/04/06 10:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So why are they kicking americas butt?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5710684 - 06/04/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

same reason they kicked the russians asses, they can pull support from many of the
islamic countries, that includes most of the former soviet union, several western
european countries, all of the mideast and much of africa... who is supporting
america?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5710686 - 06/04/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Because all the real hero tough guys like you stay in their fortress of solitude and refuse to fight


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5710712 - 06/04/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

same reason they kicked the russians asses

They gave the russians problems because the US was arming them and giving them stinger missiles. I don't think the Iraqi's have backing like the Americans were giving to the fundamentalist muslims in Afghanistan.

The Russians and Europe are arming the Iraqi's? Where did you get this from?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5710730 - 06/04/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
So why are they kicking americas butt?






An enemy that does not draw a conventional line of ware fare, is the one getting its ass kicked. These guerrilla ware fare tactics are a hail mary, hoping that America learned nothing form Viet Nam. Just like your other post about Afghanistan, you show your true colors, and what side you root for. Not having any knowledge of military science or nomenclature makes your posts laughable at best (example: in this thread you compared a road side bomb(IED) to a mobile one).The courage of the untested is always so vast, but always ignorant.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinemack_tasticlies
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5711096 - 06/04/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

for those who run and play in the shadows, there war is dictated by events they can't control.


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: mack_tasticlies]
    #5711156 - 06/04/06 01:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

here are some excerpts from Sun Tzu's The Art Of War,

This is the position now held by the Iraqi's,

4. Ground which can be abandoned but is hard
to re-occupy is called entangling.

They have given up their homefronts, and cities to us and are having some trouble re occupying them.

This is the position we hold.

20. The following are the principles to be observed
by an invading force: The further you penetrate into
a country, the greater will be the solidarity of your troops,
and thus the defenders will not prevail against you.

We are strong and unified.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5711466 - 06/04/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

An enemy that does not draw a conventional line of ware fare, is the one getting its ass kicked.

So you think Iraq is going well for the Americans? Seriously?

example: in this thread you compared a road side bomb(IED) to a mobile one

What the fuck are you talking about? I did no such thing. I gave an example of a suicide bomber approaching a checkpoint normally, stopping and then beckoning soldiers over to his car. This was provided as a contrast to your false belief that suicide bombers always drive at top speed towards checkpoints.

you show your true colors, and what side you root for

Are you high? Where do you get this bullshit from?


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5712539 - 06/04/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think he ever said they always do that. I think he said they often do that.


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5712583 - 06/04/06 08:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Does anybody find the following to be weird:

When a cartoonist draws a picture of Muhammed, Muslims all over the world flip out. When American troops humiliate prisoners at Abu Graihb, Muslims all over the world flip out. When American troops allegedly murder Muslims in cold blood, nobody raises much of a stink.


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5712633 - 06/04/06 08:31 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It's more about pride. You should read the Quran. It advocates killing people instead of humiliating them. I requested a copy from a Islamic website and they sent me one for free, I finished it last summer. I am currently re-reading the Bible and then I will reread the Quran after I am done with the Bible.


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Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5712642 - 06/04/06 08:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
So why are they kicking americas butt?




Kicking americas butt? In which way? Well, they have stopped progress from taking place but when it comes to casualties...

I saw this video of blackwater in Iraq and this is what one dude said while shooting his sniper rifle "God damn turkey shoot". We have basically killed thousands of insurgents because they honestly don't care if they die or not because more people will take their place.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: downforpot]
    #5713038 - 06/04/06 10:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
Quote:

I saw this video [advertisement] of blackwater in Iraq and this is what one dude said while shooting his sniper rifle "God damn turkey shoot".




:rotfl:...


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5713127 - 06/04/06 10:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yea it was tight. It was pretty long too. They were just straight up shooting insurgents running in and out of buildings not knowing wtf was going on.


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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: downforpot]
    #5713855 - 06/05/06 02:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Iraq is a guerilla war plain and simple. A guerilla war has a stronger and more technologically advanced force and an indigenous weaker force. Sometimes the weaker force does defeat the stronger force in direct battle, but that is rare. Usually the stronger force completely dominates the hostilities. More members of the weaker force are killed than from the stronger force. The stronger force has the ability to maintain the war indefinately and they can never be defeated by the weaker force.

That's how the Iraq situation is. The insurgents can never defeat us. They could never hope to engage us in a direct battle. They could never hope to inflict significant casualties upon us in comparison to what we inflict upon them. But, they can harass us and pick off a soldier here and there. Eventually, we'll get sick of it and we'll leave. When we leave we lose.


Edited by RandalFlagg (06/05/06 02:29 AM)


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5714395 - 06/05/06 10:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
They gave the russians problems because the US was arming them and giving them stinger missiles.




dont assume they arent being financed by the US just because we arent directly handing it to them


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: downforpot]
    #5714405 - 06/05/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

downforpot said:
We have basically killed thousands of insurgents because...





the reported body counts show a great deal of discrepancy, we report one thiing,
they report another, what of all the noncombatants, are they ncluded in these tallies


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OfflineRosettaStoned
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #5715101 - 06/05/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

“We don’t do body counts”
General Tommy Franks, US Central Command




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OfflineThe_Red_Crayon
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5715315 - 06/05/06 02:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Iraq is a guerilla war plain and simple. A guerilla war has a stronger and more technologically advanced force and an indigenous weaker force. Sometimes the weaker force does defeat the stronger force in direct battle, but that is rare. Usually the stronger force completely dominates the hostilities. More members of the weaker force are killed than from the stronger force. The stronger force has the ability to maintain the war indefinately and they can never be defeated by the weaker force.

That's how the Iraq situation is. The insurgents can never defeat us. They could never hope to engage us in a direct battle. They could never hope to inflict significant casualties upon us in comparison to what we inflict upon them. But, they can harass us and pick off a soldier here and there. Eventually, we'll get sick of it and we'll leave. When we leave we lose.




The insurgents dont need to win the war to beat the americans, they just dont have to lose.


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