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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5703576 - 06/02/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

> Well maybe they shouldn't be setup in the first place then.

That wasn't your question.  :wink:  Of course, if you follow the logic, then we shouldn't be in Iraq in the first place, let alone setting up checkpoints...  *shrug*

But, we are there... and unfortunately, when soldiers and weapons are involved, there are going to be civilian casualties.  I'm not saying that I like it or approve, but it is a simple fact of warfare.


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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Seuss]
    #5703685 - 06/02/06 11:13 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

cant more secure checkpoints be set up? checkpoints that are safe for everyone involved?

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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5703730 - 06/02/06 11:25 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:

"ordered" is a big reason why ppl become trigger happy in the first place...




This isnt a case of "trigger happy" marines itching for somebody to shoot. It was asked earlier and I'll ask it again; What would you do if you were in that situation, not shoot?




no..you dont shoot..let alone start a war..unless theres an iminent threat..which there wasnt...and given the long pattern of trigger-happy (NYTIMES) episodes in iraq..this is more likely than not yet another case of trigger-happy...for that matter..the war itself is a case of trigger-happy...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Vvellum]
    #5703761 - 06/02/06 11:32 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

> cant more secure checkpoints be set up? checkpoints that are safe for everyone involved?

No. That is the problem.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5704476 - 06/02/06 03:08 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.





:thumbup:


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Redstorm]
    #5704642 - 06/02/06 04:04 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.




The two situations arn't comparable.

When you're driving into a checkpoint at speed the soldiers have time and space to take cover and fire at you. If you're driving into a building full of soldiers there's no need to approach it carefully as the soldiers can't get out anyway.

I'm just questioning this idea that if a car speeds towards a checkpoint it must be a suicide bomber. A suicide bomber wants to kill as many soldiers as possible. I would have thought speeding towards a checkpoint and giving everyone plenty of time to take cover completely defeats the object of the exercise.

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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5704726 - 06/02/06 04:33 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

there are hundreds, if not thousands of checkpoints set up in iraq everyday. some are more reinforced checkpoints that are "safer" for everyone, some are improvised checkpoints that are set up at random times and places so as not to be predictable. if they were all the more fortified kind then it would be even easier to smuggle things through the country.

now i'm sure all of you that are criticizing these men for killing people because they were threatened are ready to show the rest of us how to set up more "safer" checkpoints. with your vast tactical and intimate local knowledge of what is going on i'm sure you will share with us what to correct in order to accomplish the mission

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5704760 - 06/02/06 04:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

there are hundreds, if not thousands of checkpoints set up in iraq everyday

Any idea what purpose they serve? Is it more important than a single innocent life?

with your vast tactical and intimate local knowledge of what is going on

I'm not sure machine-gunning pregnant women would convince too many people that you had intimate local knowledge. If they can't do better than that then it's time to go home.

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5705091 - 06/02/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Quote:

gregorio said:

"I was driving my car at full speed because I did not see any sign or warning from the Americans.




So you drive your car through an observation post at full speed, you make no attempt to slow down despite repeated warnings,




regardless of warnings, they knew there was a check point, I'm sure the high velocity killing maching they were driving was percieved as a threat, in
the same situation, I'd have done much more than kill the one woman.


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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5705106 - 06/02/06 06:55 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
I'm not sure machine-gunning pregnant women would convince too many people that you had intimate local knowledge. If they can't do better than that then it's time to go home.




how are they supposed to know the sex and condition of the occupats of a speeding
vehicle, with all the car bombs that hit buildings and busses, they did the right thing

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5705115 - 06/02/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
Quote:

Redstorm said:
In the past, a speeding car packed full of explosive ran into a Marine barracks, killing numerous people. I think he is trying to explain why they would shoot at a speeding car who is not heeding warnings to stop.




The two situations arn't comparable.

When you're driving into a checkpoint at speed the soldiers have time and space to take cover and fire at you. If you're driving into a building full of soldiers there's no need to approach it carefully as the soldiers can't get out anyway.

I'm just questioning this idea that if a car speeds towards a checkpoint it must be a suicide bomber. A suicide bomber wants to kill as many soldiers as possible. I would have thought speeding towards a checkpoint and giving everyone plenty of time to take cover completely defeats the object of the exercise.





You are wrong. The suicide bomber in Beirut, first had to speed through a checkpoint before hitting his objective (see link below). The slower you go through the checkpoint, the MORE time Marines have to zero on you with their 240 Gulfs and SAWs (I am speaking from experience) That is why suicide bombers hit the throttle and swerve while attempting to breach the checkpoint. Causing less of a reaction time for the Marines, and taking their aim off with erratic movements.

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0LIY/is_2_91/ai_108912864

At 6 a.m. on Sunday, Oct. 23, 1983, Dave Madaras awoke to another sweltering day in Beirut, Lebanon. Madaras was a fire direction controller for C Btry., 1st Bn., 10th Marines. His unit had arrived in Beirut and became part of the Multi-National Peacekeeping Force (MNF).

Marines, together with the French and Italians, had formed a force to keep peace in the capital. However, since the fall of 1982, after 700-800 Palestinians were massacred in the Sabra and Shatila refugee camps, the MNF was there to stay.

To Marines like Madaras, the politics were irrelevant. The situation in the war-torn city had escalated, and the Marines had come under intense fire from the various factions.

As he laced his boots, Madaras glanced around the tent and saw that everyone was still dozing. He decided to stretch out on his cot to grab a few more minutes of precious sleep before breakfast.

At 6:22, Madaras and the others were suddenly awakened by a huge blast. "The explosion's sound was ear-shattering," he recalled, "carrying a concussion that ripped the tent from its steel anchor, buried it in asphalt, and an accompanying rush of heat that seared my face."

Unknown to the Leathernecks, a suicide bomber had driven a truck into the Battalion Landing Team's (BLT) headquarters building. According to Victor Ostrovsky and Claire their book By Way of Deception: "A large Mercedes truck the Beirut airport, passing well within sight of the Israeli in their nearby base, going through a Lebanese army checkpoint and turning left into the parking lot.

"A U.S. Marine guard reported with alarm that the truck was gathering speed, but before he could do anything, the truck roared through the entrance of the four-story reinforced concrete Aviation Safety Building ...

"[Then] passing through a wrought iron gate, hitting the sandbagged guard post, smashing through another barrier, and ramming over a wall of sandbags into the lobby, exploding with such a terrific force that the building was instantly reduced to rubble."


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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Offlinesnoopaloop53
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5705180 - 06/02/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Any idea what purpose they serve? Is it more important than a single innocent life?

yes, they serve to try and control the flow of the insurgency and thier weapons throughout the country. an american marine isn't an innocent life? or should we consult you to decide which lives are innocent...i mean that's ok if it's your call it'll make everyone else's life easier

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: snoopaloop53]
    #5705202 - 06/02/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

why is a marine not an innocent life?

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Offlinegregorio
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5705859 - 06/02/06 10:49 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
What relevance does your link have to this thread?




Quote:

The two situations arn't comparable.




Your joking right?

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Offlinegregorio
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Annapurna1]
    #5705880 - 06/02/06 10:57 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:

no..you dont shoot..let alone start a war..unless theres an iminent threat..which there wasnt...




I can agree with you on the first part but I am in total disagreement in your belief that there wasn't any imminent threat.

Alot of this does go back to the Beirut Marine barracks bombing. Every since that day the Marines regard anybody running a checkpoint at a high rate of speed as a suicide bomber who is on a mission to murder.

They haven't forgotten that day and they never will. And they damn sure aint going to let anything like that happen again.

I don't understand how you think a car running a checkpoint at full speed is not an imminent threat.

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OfflineSeussA
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5706073 - 06/02/06 11:46 PM (17 years, 9 months ago)

> Alot of this does go back to the Beirut Marine barracks bombing.

Not realy. A lot of this does go back to "yesterday" when the speeding car heading towards the checkpoint was filled with exposives.

> They haven't forgotten that day and they never will.

Management perhaps, but the guys in the field base their reaction off of the first hand experience they are getting every single day, not off some story they read or heard about from others.


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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5706457 - 06/03/06 01:27 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

You are wrong. The suicide bomber in Beirut, first had to speed through a checkpoint before hitting his objective (see link below). The slower you go through the checkpoint, the MORE time Marines have to zero on you with their 240 Gulfs and SAWs

No they're still different situations. If all the americans are in a building behind the checkpoint then driving at full speed to get through the checkpoint to reach the building is worth a try.

However, if the only thing behind the checkpoint is desert and all the americans have time to take cover while you are driving at speed towards the checkpoint then it defeats the object of the exercise.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect a suicide bomber to do at a makeshift checkpoint:

A suicide bomber killed up to five Americans at a US checkpoint on the main road north of Najaf, in southern Iraq.

A taxi stopped close to the checkpoint, and the driver waved for help. Five soldiers approached the car, and it exploded, according to US Army Captain Andrew Wallace, who added the victims were part of the Army's 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division.





http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/032903_suicide_bomber_kills_american_so.htm

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InvisibleAlex213
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: gregorio]
    #5706469 - 06/03/06 01:31 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

gregorio said:
Quote:

Alex213 said:
What relevance does your link have to this thread?




Quote:

The two situations arn't comparable.




Your joking right?




Nope. Try thinking about it. There is a checkpoint with a dozen american soldiers 200 yards in front of you. Your only weapon is a bomb in the back of the car. What is the best way of killing as many of them as you can?

Putting your foot down and driving tyres screeching at them for 200 yards so they all have plenty of time to take cover? Or driving up to them normally?

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InvisibleVvellum
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5706975 - 06/03/06 10:10 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

you're correct. the insurgents will adapt and soon enough these checkpoints will become less and less of a good idea (if they were ever a good idea in the first place).

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: US troops kill pregnant woman [Re: Alex213]
    #5707248 - 06/03/06 11:51 AM (17 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Alex213 said:
You are wrong. The suicide bomber in Beirut, first had to speed through a checkpoint before hitting his objective (see link below). The slower you go through the checkpoint, the MORE time Marines have to zero on you with their 240 Gulfs and SAWs

No they're still different situations. If all the americans are in a building behind the checkpoint then driving at full speed to get through the checkpoint to reach the building is worth a try.

However, if the only thing behind the checkpoint is desert and all the americans have time to take cover while you are driving at speed towards the checkpoint then it defeats the object of the exercise.

This is the kind of thing I'd expect a suicide bomber to do at a makeshift checkpoint:

A suicide bomber killed up to five Americans at a US checkpoint on the main road north of Najaf, in southern Iraq.

A taxi stopped close to the checkpoint, and the driver waved for help. Five soldiers approached the car, and it exploded, according to US Army Captain Andrew Wallace, who added the victims were part of the Army's 1st Brigade, 3rd Infantry Division.





http://www.ccmep.org/2003_articles/Iraq/032903_suicide_bomber_kills_american_so.htm





You are describing a different engagement. The above situation is a road side bomb. Even thought the bomb is in the car, the car is merely deceiving the attack, not acting as the propulsion for it. The above situation is tragic, however, no mass amount of troop concentrations will be eliminated, unlike a bomb with wheels.


This check point, (or better described as an observation point), blocks more then just "empty desert". The terrain is a strategic staging area that has been secured in an area were the violence has been some of the worst in the war.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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