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Invisiblemr crisper
.

Registered: 07/25/00
Posts: 928
the big picture
    #569408 - 03/04/02 10:23 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"The true body of man is the physical universe. By no means is it merely the localized structure of flesh and blood and bones we use during a single incarnation."
p.f.case
mr case has a broad perspective


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OfflineTannis
ZoneTrooper
Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 13 years, 8 months
Re: the big picture [Re: mr crisper]
    #569421 - 03/04/02 10:44 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

.....after many years of absence I journeyed to the ocean and plunged myself into the waves
......it remembered me and called me to the deep not realizing that if I answered the playful call I would be destroyed
......I could feel its sadness much like a pet who wants your attention when you have to leave for work
.....we compromised......I played in the surf near the shore and laughed it as it hit me in the face several times as a joke....many times it would get too rough and I would tell it to stop then run playfully through the swallows and dare it to catch me
....it said "you are mine"
I explained, "I belong to the land and I have work to do"
it understood and we had a playful good time
....we will always be old friends.....

I always seem to be at my best when I'm not completely myself but more a combination of everything around me....


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OfflineDivine_Madness
member

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 182
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: the big picture [Re: mr crisper]
    #569713 - 03/04/02 04:53 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Thats pretty much how I view it sometimes.
.
Maybe even a more weird view (but eventually the same): Everything is you. What you do not seem experience in this life, you actually do, from another perspective. For example, You are also me, we just dont seem to know it right now. But it doesnt only count for humans, or biological creatures, you are also an atom flouting somewhere in space, or something like that...Although, right now I cant seem to place that last fact myself. But I asume it is accounts for all consiouss forms of excistence.

If you look at the world like this, youll realize it is crazy to judge, neglegt anyone, be hateful, destroy, or things like that without a "positive" effect in collective excistence, couse you only do it to yourself.


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its all placebo


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OfflineTimeleech
addict
Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: the big picture [Re: mr crisper]
    #569919 - 03/04/02 09:58 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is not without reason that psychedelics have been called "Boundary Dissolving".

If there are no boundaries, then you are everything, and everything is you.

Further, you cannot describe an organism without describing it's environment. Thus rendering borders (in the form of skin, cell walls or what it may be) somewhat illusory.

However, you might be centralized in the human body, and as one moves away from it, your influence wanes. Unless space has no meaning. sigh


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--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineAmoeba665
strange
Registered: 05/24/00
Posts: 275
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Re: the big picture [Re: Timeleech]
    #570062 - 03/05/02 12:59 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

the definition of one implies that there must be something outside of that one to define its boundaries so you know what the "one" is. so, you are in error if you say that "everything is one", because really, everything is nothing, or not nothing per se, but everything is the infinite without boundaries. if you take away our language and our definitions, you realize that it can be no other way, and it is only when we define things in an effort to control and organize our life and our environment, that we trick ourselves into believing that we are separate from the universe.

at least, that's what alan watts would say.


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---


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: the big picture [Re: Timeleech]
    #570131 - 03/05/02 02:28 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

It is not without reason that psychedelics have been called "Boundary Dissolving".

If the boundary dissolution was real and not illusory, why does one always return to the same body as would be predicted by the illusory model of psychedelics?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineTimeleech
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Registered: 10/04/01
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Loc: Norway
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Swami]
    #570154 - 03/05/02 02:57 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Oh shut up you! :smile:

I did not say the boundary dissolution was real... (but it is :tongue:)
And who said anything about leaving the body? Percieveing one self to be one with all does not require that one leaves the body.

The boundaries that exist in our internal model of the world might be dissolved, after all, that's what the drugs are working with; our internal mechanisms. That is not to say the real boundaries are dissolved. I was only talking about the perception of boundaries. (perhaps I should have said so)

After the drug has stopped working the usual  neurotransmitters are once again in normal ratio and we "return" to the same body.

Oooooor we could say that the astral body is attached to the body via the silver chord, and thus is able to backtrace it's way once the journey is over :wink:
I'm sure you have the recources to come up with some more alternative explanations if you want, which I doubt you do.

 


--------------------
--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineDivine_Madness
member

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 182
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Timeleech]
    #570196 - 03/05/02 04:25 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

How could you know you return to the same body? Maybe you were someone completely different before a trip. The body holds all the memories and thoughts and stuff...no one can tell if you are someone else, not even you.


--------------------
its all placebo


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OfflineTypingwords
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 171
Loc: seattle-ish area, WA
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Timeleech]
    #570205 - 03/05/02 04:37 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree timeleech. Although I think the boundary dissolution is always there, and it is real, but we just don't realize it. It's all about awareness (enlightenment, full understanding, etc.). Swami you need to understand that just because things don't seem logical or reaonable to you, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not the way it is. OUr perceptions become more deceiving the less aware we get (we have all observed this to a lesser extent, for example when you are depressed or pissed off about something that doesn't mean shit, but at the time it seems so important). Psychedelics can open up your awareness too, swami, but you have to be willing to let them. WE can all accept the fact that we are not fully "aware" most of the time, unless you are buddha or something (although shroomism and a few others seem pretty close).


--------------------
everything everyone everywhere. forever and ever and ever.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: the big picture [Re: Typingwords]
    #570281 - 03/05/02 07:18 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Swami you need to understand that just because things don't seem logical or reaonable to you, that doesn't necessarily mean that it's not the way it is.
And a wild-eyed theory does not mean that that is the way it is.

Logic and reasons are pretty handy tools. All phenomenom ever investigated deeply are internally consistent with some set of rules. If a theory cannot even be internally consistent then it is false - period.

For example:

1. UFOs fail to show up on radar.

2 UFOs show up on radar.

Both statements abound on UFO sights and both cannot be used as arguments for the existence of UFOs no matter your belief.

Back to boundary dissolution. If I pour a glass of water into the ocean, it is impossible to get the same glass back as the dissolution was real. Boundary dissolution on psychedelics is a temporary mind-state and not a real phenomenom.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineDivine_Madness
member

Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 182
Loc: The Netherlands
Last seen: 12 years, 2 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Swami]
    #570294 - 03/05/02 07:58 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

But after that, you can get water from the ocean and put in the glass. You wont see the difference.


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its all placebo


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Invisibleraytrace
Stranger

Registered: 01/15/02
Posts: 720
Re: the big picture [Re: Timeleech]
    #570305 - 03/05/02 08:19 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

After the drug has stopped working the usual neurotransmitters are once again in normal ratio and we "return" to the same body.

once the lesson is finished you leave the classroom. (?)


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OfflineTimeleech
addict
Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Swami]
    #570326 - 03/05/02 09:24 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

This is just going to be pitnicking or nitpicking or whatever the term is, but:
Is a temporary mindsate not a real phenomenon?

You might not get the same water back, but any profound psychedelic experience changes you. You loose something (hopefully mental garbage) and gain something (insights into your own personality for example). It's not the same water, but it's still water, and who knows if that matters when we speak about "consciousness", the "mind", "soul" or whatever you want.

Analogies are fine and dandy, but they aren't in a 1:1 relation to what you liken them to. Confusion of semantic structures with "das ding an sich"? (of which I myself am guilty in this very post, I am aware)
(What is the connection between water and mind? That the body consists of a lot of water? You already said that had no significance in lunar relationships in a nother post due to the water being bound.)

Another point: Don't temporary changes in mindstates count as real? Anger, love, sadness, any emotion is a temporary inbalance (if I may use that word) of endegenous neurotransmitters and hormones. Those feelings do affect you and your outlook on reality, the consequences thereof can be very real indeed. A night in jail, a marriage, death.

If you are angry at someone, you might subconsciously be looking for excuses and justifications for you anger. This can have very real consequences for a relationship of any kind.
And Love is blind. Your girl may be an angel to you, but butt ugly to me.

Thus an unreal "thing" gives real consequences. That sounds like magic to me. Just like the big bang and vacuum that teems with quantum life.


I don't think I made a particularly good case for my pov with those examples, but I don't really care. All I'm saying is that the boundary dissolution is *experienced*. Wether it is the natural state of the universe, or a temporary change in brain functions I do not know.


I don't care about UFO's. For me theyr'e just that; Unidentified Flying Objects. Although the fact that they show up /don't show up on radar is because there are different kinds of ufo's (if they exist)
might be a simple thing as that there are different types of them. But that doesn't proove anything, as you said.
BTW: What is your view on ufo's swami? Hallucination? Swamp gas? Ball lightening? Earth energy? (I could probably dig up a ufo discussion in the archive, but I'm not that interested in your opinions :tongue:


--------------------
--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineTimeleech
addict
Registered: 10/04/01
Posts: 590
Loc: Norway
Last seen: 13 years, 3 months
Re: the big picture [Re: raytrace]
    #570331 - 03/05/02 09:34 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

once the lesson is finished you leave the classroom. (?)

What goes up must come down. You can put it in as many words as you want.
If a dissipative structure experiences a disturbance, it either returns to it's equilibrium (which itself can be oscillating), or it spontaneously migrates into a higher order after seemingly collapsing.

The words you choose determine what you allow yourself to see, and thus the view you hold of the world. Being aware of the limits of language can be of great value, especially in being more tolerant to other pov's. Even more so when it comes to the willingness to change one's own beliefs.

The language of science, logic, mathemathics, and the mystical mythical language both describe the same thing. Only the viewpoint is different. (although the mythic/mystical approach *can* be more tolerant towards science than science is towards it.


--------------------
--
Eternally boggled, flummoxed, bewildered and surprised.
theophagy.org


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OfflineTypingwords
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 171
Loc: seattle-ish area, WA
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Swami]
    #570585 - 03/05/02 03:47 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"And a wild-eyed theory does not mean that that is the way it is."

Well, yes it does. I explained that it only seems like a wild-eyed theory to you (and to most people on earth) because of your level of awareness. Most of the theories I believe in are not theories, because I have experienced my own proof during higher states of awareness. YOur arguments and ideas are not valid, simply because of your awareness. I know that this simple explanation seems like I 'm simply just being lazy, but it really is that simple. woops too many simples. but that's what it is. simple. It's not hard to understand all these"crazy ideas" and discover your own proof. YOur constant lower levels of awareness will always deceive you until you rise above them. I speak nothing but the truth.

YOu will probably say that the obvious flaw here is my misperception, that I am just taking these experiences as being real when really I'm being deceived by drugs. Well then go ahead and say that. obviously that's the way it would look to you considering your state of awareness.
hah! I win! (just kidding)

but really, I 'm not trying to win here. I honestly don't care. NO one can disprove my own proof or convince me I am deceiving myself. All I"m really trying to do is help you out.


--------------------
everything everyone everywhere. forever and ever and ever.


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InvisibleSwami
Eggshell Walker

Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
Re: the big picture [Re: Typingwords]
    #570652 - 03/05/02 05:28 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

"And a wild-eyed theory does not mean that that is the way it is."

Well, yes it does.


A wild-eyed theory by its very nature is true? With an opening like that, there is little point to reading the rest of your post.


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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InvisibleSclorch
Clyster

Folding@home Statistics
Registered: 07/13/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
Re: the big picture [Re: Swami]
    #570801 - 03/05/02 08:48 PM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree with Swami on this one.
Not all criticism is negative criticism.

Thinking logically isn't a sin people.
Have an imagination, I do, just don't blindly believe everything you imagine (or what someone else says). And be honest with the "proof".


--------------------
Note: In desperate need of a cure...


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OfflineTypingwords
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Posts: 171
Loc: seattle-ish area, WA
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Re: the big picture [Re: Sclorch]
    #571043 - 03/06/02 01:10 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

I agree that the criticism is a good thing. It would be quite boring if everyone agreed the same thing. But how can you define what is "logic" and what isn't? That's just a matter of opinion. Also, if you read what i said above here, you'll can see another possibility of why your idea of logic is not as valid as it seems.
And my proof is honest. I'm also not forcing it on anyone else. I do not have blind faith about anything I believe. I don't expect you to accept my proof as your own, that would just be stupid. BUt you should give yourself a chance to find out your own proof.
ANd as for swami:

"A wild-eyed theory by its very nature is true? With an opening like that, there is little point to reading the rest of your post."

yes, I realize the first four words of my post were false, but that's not a sufficient reason to automatically write off the rest of the post as invalid. Of course that's just the kind of closed minded thinking I should have expected from you. You seem to take people's not-so-well-thought-out remarks and try to make them look stupid, even though they often don't have much to do with the main point of their argument. And then that is your reason for why everything else they said is worthless. Sorry buddy but that just doesn't work. Pointing out someone's bad analogy does not help your argument much, and it doesn't prove that you're smarter or necessarily mean that your argument is better. YOu're just trying to boost your ego. Although I admit you are funny as hell sometimes. So if you're going to waste bandwith pointlessly pointing out everyone's little mistake, please make sure you have something humorous to say about it. YOur above post is not funny. it doesn't prove shit. mine was actually worth something.


--------------------
everything everyone everywhere. forever and ever and ever.


Edited by Typingwords (03/06/02 01:26 AM)


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OfflineTypingwords
Stranger

Registered: 08/04/01
Posts: 171
Loc: seattle-ish area, WA
Last seen: 3 years, 7 months
Re: the big picture [Re: Typingwords]
    #571211 - 03/06/02 05:04 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

Swami--
I also want to add that most of the time I really do enjoy your posts. If for some reason you ever stopped posting (i.e. you are assasinated by an anonymous shroomerite) I would be very sad. Your style and arguing skills and all that stuff is awesome. (Us believers could really use you on our side, heh.) what a waste of a brain! But seriously, I learn a lot every time I read your posts, just cuz of your style. Quite skilled with the words I must admit. But of course, even you are not perfe/ct. It's those pointless flaws that you point out. okay i'm done.


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everything everyone everywhere. forever and ever and ever.


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InvisibleUlysees
Power of Lard

Registered: 10/06/01
Posts: 5,060
Re: the big picture [Re: Typingwords]
    #571218 - 03/06/02 05:17 AM (14 years, 9 months ago)

hehe, yes, I must agree with you there, though I'm sure I've said it before. Swami is rather intelligent, there's no denying. Certainly a rather large and obtrusive hurdle to overcome when trying to believe that which you want to believe sometimes, however short lived those beliefs may turn out regardless. Sometimes you want to peacefully submit yourself to something, but Swami is always there forcing you back into reality. What a prick. :wink:

Back to work now, back to work. There's always work to be done, too much Shroomery is a bad thing as I've learned... :tongue: 


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