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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Silversoul]
    #5694375 - 05/31/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
The potential has always been there. The willingness never. You need to do some research on that. There is no evidence of any lessining of poverty since the big political and social movents around this in my lifetime. I heard exactly the same claims in the 70s. It's an eliteist idea that helps ones conscience take a break for having to be one of the haves, often at the expense of the have nots.





How is it elitist to point out that it is possible? I never said it was actually going to happen.




Anything is possible. Ok I'll give you that. BUT!

I'm trying to take a logical look at the idea that 2012 is a big global consciousness change.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694376 - 05/31/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tallgreen said:
Spirituality has nothing to do with mental capacity, you are mislead about that. It is about being, not thinking or doing. This is implicit in all life and enlightenment is the acknowledgment of that. It's not about figuring anything out, thinking will always just be thinking.



My thoughts exactly. Also I'd like to point some things out:

Jesus was poor.

Siddhartha renounced his riches in order to become enlightened.

Monks and nuns always take a vow of poverty.

Ghandi lived a simple, aescetic life.

The poor in the US are statistically more likely to be religious.

Poor countries tend to have more religious populations than wealthy countries.

The obstacle to spiritual development is not poverty, but materialism.


--------------------


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Icelander]
    #5694380 - 05/31/06 10:39 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Anything is possible. Ok I'll give you that. BUT!

I'm trying to take a logical look at the idea that 2012 is a big global consciousness change.



As I said in another post, it will take a shift in consciousness before people will do what is necessary to rescue the world from poverty and self-destruction. Maybe that is the shift in consciousness that will take place. The poor don't need the shift in consciousness. It's the privileged who do.


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Posts: 95,368
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694389 - 05/31/06 10:41 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tallgreen said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Actually, the poor tend to be much more spiritually oriented than the rich. It's those who have too much that are going to have a more difficult transition.




I would dispute this. Most really poor are malnourished or diseased and do not have the mental capacity (you need nutrients to fuel brain function) to work on their spirituality. Much of the worlds poor are in a state of malnutrition. Survival until tomorrow is their path.




Spirituality has nothing to do with mental capacity, you are mislead about that. It is about being, not thinking or doing. This is implicit in all life and enlightenment is the acknowledgment of that. It's not about figuring anything out, thinking will always just be thinking.




Tell that to a starving malnourished individual whose body does not function correctly.

We may all be ultimately spirit, (I'm not disputing that) but on this physical plane of experience the physical body needs to be a functioning unit for awareness of that spirituality and the ability to really act on it in a major way.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Silversoul]
    #5694401 - 05/31/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
Anything is possible. Ok I'll give you that. BUT!

I'm trying to take a logical look at the idea that 2012 is a big global consciousness change.



As I said in another post, it will take a shift in consciousness before people will do what is necessary to rescue the world from poverty and self-destruction. Maybe that is the shift in consciousness that will take place. The poor don't need the shift in consciousness. It's the privileged who do.




That's a huge maybe with no evidence for it. That's what I'm looking at. Like I said I heard all of this (and a lot louder) in the 70s.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Silversoul]
    #5694402 - 05/31/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

"The poor don't need the shift in consciousness. It's the privileged who do."

Here here!!


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694405 - 05/31/06 10:43 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

whoops, I think it's "hear hear". anyone know?


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694412 - 05/31/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There is no evidence that they are making it (the privilidged) any more than at any other time in history.

The error I believe is in individuals who surround themselves with a like minded social group and all read the same literature and then begin to believe that much of the world is thinking along the same lines. I've seen this over and over and have done it often enough myself.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (05/31/06 10:46 AM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Icelander]
    #5694420 - 05/31/06 10:47 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The problem is people sitting around and waiting for this shift to happen. I, for one, plan to do my part to actively initiate this shift. And if everyone who looks forward to that shift will do the same, then we can make it a reality.


--------------------


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694442 - 05/31/06 10:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I think it will happen whether we want it or not. There is no "problem", it's inevitable, this is not something we are choosing, but rather have chosen. Some people will sit back and think it's bullshit, others will march in the streets. I for one will be meditating in the Himilayas. (leaving in september)


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694458 - 05/31/06 10:59 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tallgreen said:
I think it will happen whether we want it or not.



It's that kind of thinking that will prevent it from happening. We need to play an active role in this.

"Be the change you wish to see in this world." -- Ghandi


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694476 - 05/31/06 11:06 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Here's my assessment of what happened in the 70s and my prediction of what will happen in 2012-2016.

The true believers who are invested in their beliefs will find that what they expected did not happen as planned and over the next few years will become disillusioned. At that point they will change tactics and say well that was a lot of youthful BS. I'm gonna take care of me and mine.

You might think my view is negative and without hope but that is not the case. I like to look life straight in the eye and use my logical abilities along with my spiritual leanings and say what's the best course of action for myself. That's living what I call the warriors way to the best of my ability. Good for me and good for everything IMO. I was a true believer in the 70s and I saw it all go down. I re-evaluated my stance (so I didn't have to give up and go for the almighty buck and safety net) I choose a spiritual path more suited to my true nature. So I'm not saying don't do what you're doing. I was just taking a look at it and seeing if anyone thought as I do.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Icelander]
    #5694553 - 05/31/06 11:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

----Spirituality has nothing to do with mental capacity, you are mislead about that. It is about being, not thinking or doing. This is implicit in all life and enlightenment is the acknowledgment of that. It's not about figuring anything out, thinking will always just be thinking.-----

This sounds good and is well articulated but I don't quit agree with it totally. Being aware is not implicit in all life, To me it goes hand in hand, you learn and then you become, you become and then your able to learn, do I just accept something on blind faith then I'm granted enlightenment, maybe on somethings but not all.


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: capliberty]
    #5694651 - 05/31/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Silversoul: I don't agree. You need to be active maybe, maybe that is your path. It's not mine. There is no point in arguing about the future, we'll just wait and see. But I'm 100% sure a big change is coming and it doesn't require my activism.

Icelander: Respect. You are a warrior. You don't need to get caught up in BS. Stay strong and take care of your family.

capliberty: I did not mean being aware is implicit, just being, plants, bacteria, viruses, dirt, and rocks included. Being aware is a wonderful opportunity we have as humans. It thoroughly enhances the experience of existence, but it does not make it. Spirituality is about tuning into that existence that is independent of consciousness. Thought is mostly a distraction.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694890 - 05/31/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

But I'm 100% sure a big change is coming and it doesn't require my activism.

IMO to belive something 100% is closed minded and fear driven.

Unless you have some amazing evidence besides your hopes that you are willing to share. :confused:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694915 - 05/31/06 01:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

not willing to share, cause it wouldn't seem amazing to you, it would just give you an opportunity to say I'm a hippy or something.

I'm not scared of anything. It's like saying you are 100% sure the sun will set tonight. Ok, maybe it won't but I'm not 99% I'm 100%, fear is not involved. It truly believe that the sun will set tonight, I don't see how that's close minded.


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694921 - 05/31/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There is a precedent for the sun setting: It has done the same every other night, so it is reasonable to assume it will do the same tonight. What precedent is there to believe that this massive shift in consciousness will occur?


--------------------


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: tallgreen]
    #5694979 - 05/31/06 01:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

tallgreen said:
not willing to share, cause it wouldn't seem amazing to you, it would just give you an opportunity to say I'm a hippy or something.

I'm not scared of anything. It's like saying you are 100% sure the sun will set tonight. Ok, maybe it won't but I'm not 99% I'm 100%, fear is not involved. It truly believe that the sun will set tonight, I don't see how that's close minded.




It's closed minded IMO because we don't have the information to be 100% sure of anything. That's why people reach out to religion or political dogma, so they can be 100% sure they're right. And it is fear based at least in most cases IMO, because many people become invested egotistically and the ego cannot face being wrong.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Silversoul]
    #5695160 - 05/31/06 02:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
The obstacle to spiritual development is not poverty, but materialism.




Not if you don't presuppose that spiritual development is a mystical endeavor. However, if you meant materialism in the sense of lusting after material possessions, then yes I suppose that would be detrimental.

There seems to be a lot of confusion over the meaning of "materialism" around here. My philosophy professors always used the term "physicalism" to describe the belief that there is nothing beyond the material world.


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Offlinetallgreen
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Re: 2012 = not [Re: Icelander]
    #5695188 - 05/31/06 02:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

tallgreen said:
not willing to share, cause it wouldn't seem amazing to you, it would just give you an opportunity to say I'm a hippy or something.

I'm not scared of anything. It's like saying you are 100% sure the sun will set tonight. Ok, maybe it won't but I'm not 99% I'm 100%, fear is not involved. It truly believe that the sun will set tonight, I don't see how that's close minded.




It's closed minded IMO because we don't have the information to be 100% sure of anything. That's why people reach out to religion or political dogma, so they can be 100% sure they're right. And it is fear based at least in most cases IMO, because many people become invested egotistically and the ego cannot face being wrong.




I see your point. I am definitely scared of being wrong. It's a daily battle with my ego. Admitting this is a victory over it. So I guess I'm not sure of anything 100%. The earth could stop spinning, I really don't know that it won't. So back to the topic. I guess I don't know what will happen. But if I had to wager..


--------------------
Nothing you can know that isn't known.
Nothing you can see that isn't shown.
Nowhere you can be that isn't where you're meant to be.
It's easy.
All you need is love.
- The Beatles


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Unfolding Nature Shop: Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order


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