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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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To "see things how they are" you must first acknowledge that they are not black and white.
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dblaney
Human Being

Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:
dblaney said: 1. Is it wrong to break into property owned by some one if the land is for everyone? But breaking into what is not belonging to you is against the standards to go into this land
It's part of the social contract. Ultimately, the land belongs to no one, it just cannot. Property is an abstraction that centuries ago Europeans found to be absolutely essential to the forming of a society. So by social definitions, breaking into another's property is indeed wrong. The question is, is it wrong by your standards?
2. If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong? Would that be wise to do so? Or would it be like driving to the top of a mountain, where as some one else could of walked up it. Would the knowledge be of any less value? Not in scale to what it really is, but what about on level of respect? Are short cuts in learning things 'essential' unethical?
For me, psychedelic drugs would be more like a helicopter tour of the mountain. I can see out the window all sorts of wondrous things, even the peak, but I cannot jump out of the helicopter and remain on the peak for ever. People try to do that and some never return. In order to get up the mountain I still have to walk up it, but now I'm more aware of what's up the mountain, where before I had only heard stories.
In the words of William James, they can "determine attitudes, though they cannot furnish formulas, and open a region though they fail to give a map."
Are drugs ethical if there are other ways to attain knowledge?
Are cars ethical if there are other ways to move around? How about aeroplanes? If you derive benefit from the use of psychedelic drugs, then I say that there is nothing wrong with their use.
well, lets be more literal about what your saying. are cars ethical to go around in? well, considering most cars pollute... lets say cars are drugs. would observing be the hybrid car which does no harm?
Hybrid cars can still crash and kill people. I think one would be very hard pressed to find any one tool that has absolutely no negative potential.
Psychedelics have the capability to be catalysts, if used appropriately. Yes, there are other ways of getting to where psychedelics could take you, but most of them take considerably more effort. As to which way you should go about getting there, that's a completely personal decision and opinion.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Knowledge [Re: dblaney]
#5695720 - 05/31/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said: Psychedelics have the capability to be catalysts, if used appropriately. Yes, there are other ways of getting to where psychedelics could take you, but most of them take considerably more effort. As to which way you should go about getting there, that's a completely personal decision and opinion.
It is in this thread that it is finally revealed that taking psychadelics is unethical because one could also "walk the mountain" to obtain that perspective (which doesn't make sense, as any perpsective formed under the influence of psychadelics is naturally distinct from any perspective that is not not), which implies that dishwashers are unethical because one isn't expending as much physical effort in the act of washing dishes. 
Speaking of, I've been mentioning to myself and others that I need to take on a more practical approach to life, and, as the situation dictates, I have dishes that I need to wash, by hand, even. Ya'll have fun, I am out of here.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: You seem to be really hung up on human created morality? Right/wrong Good/bad. Very black and white.
The questions you ask can IMO only be answered by the individual and are neither right or wrong but relate to the individuals level of awareness.
There's nothing human created about it, in fact this where we get in trouble, assuming that we have total enmity on all factuality's of this world. one can only rely on individual awareness when that individual is fully aware that hes not in control.
Edited by capliberty (05/31/06 10:39 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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That's not what I said.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
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It came from your post
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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You misunderstood it.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
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Well then explain, what I am hung up on. Your saying right and wrong has nothing to do with our determinations; but indivdual awareness
Which is exactly what I'm saying to determine right and wrong for yourself.
Edited by capliberty (05/31/06 11:03 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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First I have to ask if English is your second language. Your post is very difficult to understand. I never made any claim about the correctness or extent of human awareness. It's still up to the individual right or wrong. Each makes a best guess. Morality is surely man made IMO. Or you better show me proof of what you say.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
Stranger


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I guess your way above me. Which I highly doubt LOL
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Think what ever makes you feel best.
In the mean time can you explain this? "have total enmity on all factuality's of this world." I can't understand it. I showed it to Veritas and she doesn't get it either.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
Stranger


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Proof is in the pudding which I can't show you, its not totally man made, did man make this world,
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Did morality make this world?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
capliberty said: Proof is in the pudding which I can't show you
Are you related to Doctor J?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
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NO
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Schwammel
Auk

Registered: 12/10/05
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Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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if everybody went sightseeing who'd do the work?
That makes it unethical to a society that is bent on work.
Everybody that goes up the mountain doesn't necessarly come back... and that's not go for business.
I decided long ago that I would do what I want; therefore, I suppose I have no ethics.
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capliberty
Stranger


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I'm not religious but I can relate to Doctor J on a few conceptual things; but I don't base this knowledge on books, but first hand experience.
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Re: Knowledge [Re: dblaney]
#5697851 - 06/01/06 01:07 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:
dblaney said: 1. Is it wrong to break into property owned by some one if the land is for everyone? But breaking into what is not belonging to you is against the standards to go into this land
It's part of the social contract. Ultimately, the land belongs to no one, it just cannot. Property is an abstraction that centuries ago Europeans found to be absolutely essential to the forming of a society. So by social definitions, breaking into another's property is indeed wrong. The question is, is it wrong by your standards?
2. If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong? Would that be wise to do so? Or would it be like driving to the top of a mountain, where as some one else could of walked up it. Would the knowledge be of any less value? Not in scale to what it really is, but what about on level of respect? Are short cuts in learning things 'essential' unethical?
For me, psychedelic drugs would be more like a helicopter tour of the mountain. I can see out the window all sorts of wondrous things, even the peak, but I cannot jump out of the helicopter and remain on the peak for ever. People try to do that and some never return. In order to get up the mountain I still have to walk up it, but now I'm more aware of what's up the mountain, where before I had only heard stories.
In the words of William James, they can "determine attitudes, though they cannot furnish formulas, and open a region though they fail to give a map."
Are drugs ethical if there are other ways to attain knowledge?
Are cars ethical if there are other ways to move around? How about aeroplanes? If you derive benefit from the use of psychedelic drugs, then I say that there is nothing wrong with their use.
well, lets be more literal about what your saying. are cars ethical to go around in? well, considering most cars pollute... lets say cars are drugs. would observing be the hybrid car which does no harm?
Hybrid cars can still crash and kill people. I think one would be very hard pressed to find any one tool that has absolutely no negative potential.
Psychedelics have the capability to be catalysts, if used appropriately. Yes, there are other ways of getting to where psychedelics could take you, but most of them take considerably more effort. As to which way you should go about getting there, that's a completely personal decision and opinion.
see, drugs have a very great negative potential and many people abuse drugs and end up on the side with negative potential. we do validate our words with actions. so, in a sense... we are kind of advocating drug use to a fool. (and i think that's my most crucial point in this paragraph if there is on) but who is a fool? who are we to determine what's foolish? I for one think a fool is some one who seeks answers with the wrong medium, because whether you like it or not - your stepping into grounds for pyschosis, depression, or very misleading judgements. but that's not always going to happen, if your smart... you can probably count on it not happening. but that's just the thing, how do we know what's smart when we don't know everything? but i can definatley say this, you can learn things through experience. and experience can be just as harmful as a drug experience, but whether you like it or not, everything is an experience... so why add another risk?
drugs really are a bet with your mind.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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Schwammel
Auk

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"The real war is between those who are turned on, and those who are uptight." -Timothy Leary (October 22, 1920 - May 31, 1996)
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
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I get the uptight, people of position are uptight, they do not want others to prosper at there own expense, but the turned on I must
equate to those who are trying to prosper, those that are motivated
yet struggle with the uptight for access or entry to there prosperity
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