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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
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Knowledge
    #5693761 - 05/31/06 03:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

1. Is it wrong to break into property owned by some one if the land is for everyone? But breaking into what is not belonging to you is against the standards to go into this land?

2. If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong? Would that be wise to do so? Or would it be like driving to the top of a mountain, where as some one else could of walked up it. Would the knowledge be of any less value? Not in scale to what it really is, but what about on level of respect? Are short cuts in learning things 'essential' unethical?

Quote:

If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong?




3.if you do not have a certain level of knowing which is important to your sense of perception, would using a chemical to open your mind to that fulfillment of knowledge be considered "healing"? But this level of perception could be achieved by other means with out such direct risks.

I think most of you know what I'm talking about in specific, but this is a principle that can be applied to many things. Like mushrooms, some people say they can treat cluster head aches. If this is so, then they do have a definate purpose. But, they can also make you "break on through."

Are drugs ethical if there are other ways to attain knowledge? That so far has only come down to who says what from what I have observed. But still, I guess I've got a deep suspicsion I'm not willing to let go of until I get a definate answer.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5693830 - 05/31/06 04:51 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:


2. If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong? Would that be wise to do so? Or would it be like driving to the top of a mountain, where as some one else could of walked up it. Would the knowledge be of any less value? Not in scale to what it really is, but what about on level of respect? Are short cuts in learning things 'essential' unethical?




on my last mushroom trip i percieved that reality is at it is and taking drugs was redundant and unecessary (actually negative) in terms of realizing it. however, when i first took drugs i felt as if i was learning a lot from them. so i think it may depend on where you are to start with.


Edited by Deviate (05/31/06 04:58 AM)


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Deviate]
    #5693834 - 05/31/06 04:53 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

but see, after doing a little more sober thinking i realized knowledge is also surrounding us. so does it matter how we get there if we reach the same conclusion and dont cause any damage? but how do we know if we've done any damage and the conclusion is truely the same if we've never gone the long route.

edit: so not knowing is ignorance in itself, plain and simple. but wisdom is knowing what's right. is it right take short cuts if they seem valid?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (05/31/06 04:56 AM)


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OfflineDeviate
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5693848 - 05/31/06 05:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but see, after doing a little more sober thinking i realized knowledge is also surrounding us. so does it matter how we get there if we reach the same conclusion and dont cause any damage? but how do we know if we've done any damage and the conclusion is truely the same if we've never gone the long route.

edit: so not knowing is ignorance in itself, plain and simple. but wisdom is knowing what's right. is it right take short cuts if they seem valid?





what do you mean by right? ive decided for myself that after taking a lot of drugs, i want to try the so called long way. i discovered that taking drugs affected me negatively in many ways and i now realize that had i not been so concerned with finding a shortcut i would not have harmed myself.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Deviate]
    #5693876 - 05/31/06 05:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You'll soon find out you'll need them again


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Deviate]
    #5693882 - 05/31/06 05:29 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

when I say right, I mean of good ethics. but good luck with quittin man. i should of just made the name of this thread "Ethics of learning"

knowledge is knowing, and if I learn it it's still knowledge that can be useful. but is it wrong to have to take drugs to realize that? the mystical(if you will) experience brought on by drugs is beneficial to my thought process in many ways. but what about my ethics? does that go against work ethics?

I've always had an interest in philosophy and things I found enigmatic, but drugs just brought me closer to them, bringing me to greater levels of knowledge. is that unethical when I read about people who gain this knowledge through the experience of life.

then again, drugs like lsd are derived from ergot. mushrooms contain psilocybin. but still, something sits unkoshur about it with me. can't quiet put my finger on it.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5693896 - 05/31/06 05:37 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

your talking how we derive knowledge, using mediums such as shrooms or lsd to get this knowledge, is this ethical?

The answer is in your own experience like anything else, if feels unethical then it probably is. Its good to acknowledge those feelings.

I've definitely have explored realms and ventured in areas of knowledge that I shouldn't have.

Curiosity can get you intp alot trouble, knowing something that should've been left alone.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Knowledge [Re: capliberty]
    #5693902 - 05/31/06 05:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

then why is your icon a mushroom if you feel you've tapped into something shouldnt have? why is mine if im in doubt? reality is, theres always a level of uncertainty. i think morrison said it best. drugs are a bet with your mind. but what about spirituality? ethics help mold your spirituality, and ethics are logical morals to go by. but we push our ethics over the edge. I dont think this is good, but the fact remains the same: knowledge is still knowledge. and if we truely are knowledgable, we'll know what's right.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5693943 - 05/31/06 06:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

The way I know something that is unethical is this; plain and simple. Its when you have paid a price that you weren't bargaining for. Its learning the hard way. No one wants to gain understanding of something when its so hard and unbearable that its not worth it in first place.

ex: Do you need to go play with guns and get all shot up, to learn playing with guns is a bad move.

Thats what I'm talking about with drugs, its the same way. Do I need to explore crazy realms and get caught up in drug abuse, to figure out some warped reality. These are extreme examples, now apply the non extreme to what could possibly happen.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Knowledge [Re: capliberty]
    #5693950 - 05/31/06 06:22 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

every one knows curiosity can kill the cat. but in your higher judgement (the reader), do you think it's unethical to use drugs as a medium to gain knowledge when there is another way?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlinenotleaf
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5693963 - 05/31/06 06:31 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

i think it's weird that we can't walk on other people's property. just the other day i was taking my dog out on a walk and i was thinking about how weird it was that some people might think it weird that i was striding on their land. weird that the great tribe is so fucking crazy.


--------------------
"Woo haw!"


Edited by notleaf (05/31/06 06:32 AM)


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5693975 - 05/31/06 06:38 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

---but in your higher judgment (the reader), do you think it's unethical to use drugs as a medium to gain knowledge when there is another way?---

Like I said the answer is in you own experience, if it feel unethical, in which your brains telling you subconsciously hey this might not be the right path. Then it probably should be left alone.

I mean do you want to pay for knowledge thats not worth the asking price. No, so its better to learn in its due course.

But with that said, if you are totally ready to have a good drug experience, and you paid your dues in life, shoot you maybe even ready to do something hardcore, like going to level 5, who knows and you learn from this, then its all gravy.

Just look at my title bro;


Edited by capliberty (05/31/06 06:42 AM)


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InvisibleIcelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5694070 - 05/31/06 08:04 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You seem to be really hung up on human created morality? Right/wrong Good/bad. Very black and white.

The questions you ask can IMO only be answered by the individual and are neither right or wrong but relate to the individuals level of awareness.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlinekilroy
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Re: Knowledge [Re: capliberty]
    #5694088 - 05/31/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I beleive that it is for the person to decide what is ethical for themselves like you say. If you can not afford the price then do not do it, look for another way. Ethics is such a gray area as they say. Every one has what they beleive to be thier ethics, but others will not beleive in them, for they have thier own to beleive. I beleive knowledge is good if seeked with the good heart and mind, but there is also bad knowledge like why would someone want to know bomb making, most of the time thier reason is probly not good, not saying all who look it up will do bad things but I think most do. I guess I really have no answer to any of these questions you put before us except to say gathering knowledge for the most part is good if done with the right intensions and if you want to try short cut as you put it then that is for each person to decide.


--------------------
IS NOT THE JOURNEY OF THE TRIP JUST AS IMPORTANT AS REACHING THE DESTINATION.





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Invisibledblaney
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Registered: 10/03/04
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Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5694211 - 05/31/06 09:44 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

1. Is it wrong to break into property owned by some one if the land is for everyone? But breaking into what is not belonging to you is against the standards to go into this land

It's part of the social contract. Ultimately, the land belongs to no one, it just cannot. Property is an abstraction that centuries ago Europeans found to be absolutely essential to the forming of a society. So by social definitions, breaking into another's property is indeed wrong. The question is, is it wrong by your standards?

2. If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong? Would that be wise to do so? Or would it be like driving to the top of a mountain, where as some one else could of walked up it. Would the knowledge be of any less value? Not in scale to what it really is, but what about on level of respect? Are short cuts in learning things 'essential' unethical?

For me, psychedelic drugs would be more like a helicopter tour of the mountain. I can see out the window all sorts of wondrous things, even the peak, but I cannot jump out of the helicopter and remain on the peak for ever. People try to do that and some never return. In order to get up the mountain I still have to walk up it, but now I'm more aware of what's up the mountain, where before I had only heard stories.

In the words of William James, they can "determine attitudes, though they cannot furnish formulas, and open a region though they fail to give a map."

Are drugs ethical if there are other ways to attain knowledge?

Are cars ethical if there are other ways to move around? How about aeroplanes? If you derive benefit from the use of psychedelic drugs, then I say that there is nothing wrong with their use.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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Offlinekilroy
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Re: Knowledge [Re: dblaney]
    #5694287 - 05/31/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

dblaney that was a very good explanation and way to look at it. I love the part about walking up the mountain and seeing more then just fliing to the top. TY. As the old saying goes isn`t the journey just as much a part of the trip then just getting to your destination.


--------------------
IS NOT THE JOURNEY OF THE TRIP JUST AS IMPORTANT AS REACHING THE DESTINATION.





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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Registered: 05/30/05
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Re: Knowledge [Re: Icelander]
    #5695443 - 05/31/06 03:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
You seem to be really hung up on human created morality? Right/wrong Good/bad. Very black and white.

The questions you ask can IMO only be answered by the individual and are neither right or wrong but relate to the individuals level of awareness.




see, that's kind of the thing. there is a definate sense of right and wrong, and if everyone were do go with wrong. things would fall apart. that is why im hung up on whats right and wrong. and considering if no one had belief in god, we would at best be on a mutual level with one another.

but when you get down to the root of things, you can only see things as black and white.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: Knowledge [Re: dblaney]
    #5695456 - 05/31/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

dblaney said:
1. Is it wrong to break into property owned by some one if the land is for everyone? But breaking into what is not belonging to you is against the standards to go into this land

It's part of the social contract. Ultimately, the land belongs to no one, it just cannot. Property is an abstraction that centuries ago Europeans found to be absolutely essential to the forming of a society. So by social definitions, breaking into another's property is indeed wrong. The question is, is it wrong by your standards?

2. If one seeks knowledge, but uses drugs to realize the knowledge which is there anyways, is it wrong? Would that be wise to do so? Or would it be like driving to the top of a mountain, where as some one else could of walked up it. Would the knowledge be of any less value? Not in scale to what it really is, but what about on level of respect? Are short cuts in learning things 'essential' unethical?

For me, psychedelic drugs would be more like a helicopter tour of the mountain. I can see out the window all sorts of wondrous things, even the peak, but I cannot jump out of the helicopter and remain on the peak for ever. People try to do that and some never return. In order to get up the mountain I still have to walk up it, but now I'm more aware of what's up the mountain, where before I had only heard stories.

In the words of William James, they can "determine attitudes, though they cannot furnish formulas, and open a region though they fail to give a map."

Are drugs ethical if there are other ways to attain knowledge?

Are cars ethical if there are other ways to move around? How about aeroplanes? If you derive benefit from the use of psychedelic drugs, then I say that there is nothing wrong with their use.




well, lets be more literal about what your saying. are cars ethical to go around in? well, considering most cars pollute... lets say cars are drugs. would observing be the hybrid car which does no harm?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: Knowledge [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5695463 - 05/31/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but when you get down to the root of things, you can only see things as black and white.




:smirk:

Come on...


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
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Re: Knowledge [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5695489 - 05/31/06 04:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

well, if you were to know things for what they are. how else would you see it other than what it is? im not saying i know what things are, but i trust my intuition as it's served me well.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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