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OfflineSirTripAlot
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The Dumbing of American Standards.............
    #5691228 - 05/30/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

What a mess..........


http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/30/education/30dropouts.html?_r=2&oref=slogin&oref=slogin

By KAREN W. ARENSON
Published: May 30, 2006
It is a kind of Alice-in-Wonderland idea. If you do not finish high school, head straight for college.

Suzanne DeChillo/The New York Times
April Pointer, a part-time telemarketer who never completed high school, attends Rockland Community College in Suffern, N.Y.

But many colleges — public and private, two-year and four-year — will accept students who have not graduated from high school or earned equivalency degrees.

And in an era of stubbornly elevated high school dropout rates, the chance to enter college through the back door is attracting growing interest among students without high school diplomas.

That growth is fueling a debate over whether the students should be in college at all and whether state financial aid should pay their way. In New York, the issue flared in a budget battle this spring.

They are students like April Pointer, 23, of New City, N.Y., a part-time telemarketer who majors in psychology at Rockland Community College, whose main campus is in Suffern, N.Y. Ms. Pointer failed science her senior year of high school and did not finish summer school.

But to her father's amazement, last year she was accepted at Rockland, part of the State University of New York.

"He asked, 'Don't you have to have a high school diploma to go to college?' " she said. "I was like, 'No, not anymore.' "

There are nearly 400,000 students like Ms. Pointer nationwide, accounting for 2 percent of all college students, 3 percent at community colleges and 4 percent at commercial, or profit-making, colleges, according to a survey by the United States Education Department in 2003-4.

That is up from 1.4 percent of all college students four years earlier. The figures do not include home-schooled students.

The existence of such students — eager, yet at high risk for failure — exposes a split in education policy. On one hand, believers in the standards movement frown on social promotion and emphasize measurable performance in high school.

At the same time, because a college degree is widely considered essential to later success, some educators say even students who could not complete high school should be allowed to attend college.

Nowhere is this contradiction more evident than in California. This year, 47,000 high school seniors, about 10 percent of the class, have not passed the exit examinations required to graduate from high school. They can still enroll in many colleges, although they are no longer eligible for state tuition grants.

State Senator Deborah Ortiz, Democrat of Sacramento, has proposed legislation to change that.

"As long as the opportunity to go to college exists for students without a diploma," Ms. Ortiz said, "qualifying students from poor or low-income families should remain entitled to college financial aid."

Many community colleges and two-year commercial colleges take these students, as do some less selective four-year colleges. At Interboro Institute, a large commercial college in Manhattan, 94 percent of the students last year did not have a high school diploma. Yet most received federal and state financial aid, up to $9,000 a student for the neediest.

At the College of New Rochelle, a four-year Catholic women's college whose main campus is in Westchester County, N.Y., students without high school degrees account for one-third of the students entering its School of New Resources, for those 21 or older, which has 4,500 students.

At Interboro, the state recently found cheating by employees on the exam students have to pass to qualify for state and financial aid. The college, part of EVCI Career Colleges Holding, said the problems were not pervasive.

Gov. George E. Pataki, however, tried to withdraw state tuition grants from students without high school diplomas this year. Mr. Pataki said the students should show their commitment to education and earn 24 college credits before the state gave them financial aid.

"In too many cases, students fail to graduate from college because they were admitted to programs for which they were academically underprepared," a spokesman for the governor, Scott Reif, said.

The State Legislature rejected the proposal. The state budget office estimated that it paid $29 million a year for 13,000 students who never graduated from high school to attend college


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691252 - 05/30/06 04:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Dumbing of American Standards.............



See: Intelligent Design


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Offlineleery11
I Tell You What!

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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5691256 - 05/30/06 04:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

if you can pass college why does it matter if you passed high school?

though college can in many instances be easier than high school :frown:
it entirely depends. classes where you can make a 45% and it will be a C. Like my freshmen astronomy class.


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I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5691266 - 05/30/06 04:25 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

It goes beyond that (what public school can you name that teaches Intelligent Design?).......not even having a basic grasp of Math, English, and Science. As the article stated, they cant even pass the exit exams, don't get the point of your response.......


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: leery11]
    #5691274 - 05/30/06 04:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
if you can pass college why does it matter if you passed high school?

though college can in many instances be easier than high school :frown:
it entirely depends. classes where you can make a 45% and it will be a C. Like my freshmen astronomy class.





If high school is harder then college, then that college is not a college or "higher learning" in any sense of the word.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691283 - 05/30/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Depends what he means by "harder." I've certainly learned more in college than I did in High School, but it's different in terms of workload. Rather than daily homework assignments, a lot of the classes have reading and occasional essays and tests. So in that sense, depending on what kind of work you're suited for, college can indeed be easier than High School.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5691293 - 05/30/06 04:32 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

So you disagree with the prerequisite of having a high school diploma or GED to get into college?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691326 - 05/30/06 04:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Where did I say that?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5691517 - 05/30/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Never said you did....just wondering if you agree with the prerequisite of a high school diploma.....


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691545 - 05/30/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, I think it would be fine if they had some other criteria for gauging an individual's qualification. Go to any community college and you'll see that it doesn't take much intelligence to get in.


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Invisibledownforpot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691549 - 05/30/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

We should just make sure that all 4 year colleges have a lot of students that try to go pre med. Those fuckers really fucked up the curve in my chemistry class last semester, half of the class dropped but I still managed to get a B+.


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"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691608 - 05/30/06 05:38 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I am not surprised about this. I went to a public high school. The academic rigor there was pathetic. I never studied, never did homework, slept in all of my classes, and I had a horrible attitude. I graduated with ease. The college that I went to was decent. It wasn't a blow-off school but it wasn't Harvard either. The academic environment was noticeably more rigorous than my high school. I actually had to study and try.

In my college I noticed that there were people who did not belong there. I remember being in an Algebra I class and there were people that were getting D's. If they didn't have the acumen to learn simple algebra then what business did they have being at a university?

Universities and community colleges are letting morons in. It is no secret. I don't know if it is because of political correctness (wanting to help the "disadvantaged") or because of greedy university administrators who want more money.


Edited by RandalFlagg (05/30/06 05:46 PM)


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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5691680 - 05/30/06 05:52 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I personally think that the most important factor in whether or not you get grants or loans should be your course of study. For instance, if you are pursuing a worthless degree such as psychology or communications, then you should be ineligible for these. However, if you study something like medicine, biochem, or just about anything useful then you should be eligible.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #5691715 - 05/30/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Those communications and psychology degrees are very useful in my opinion. The people who have them bag our groceries and prepare our food. Where would we be without them?


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5691832 - 05/30/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was a total dumbass in high school....never applied myself, but still managed to pass for a diploma.....if someone cannot pass high school whats makes anyone think that they will pass college....keeping in mind that this is on the taxpayers dime.......


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: RandalFlagg]
    #5691839 - 05/30/06 06:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

RandalFlagg said:
Those communications and psychology degrees are very useful in my opinion.  The people who have them bag our groceries and prepare our food.  Where would we be without them?




Prick :wink:  My psychology degree has been very useful to me in my career as a contractor.  Why, it's helped me to.......yeah, something.
I did not look at college as job training.  I looked at it as a 4 year party with intermittent spurts of work.  But I was never a dweeb and had no intention of being one in real life.  A general education and the ability to interact with people of all levels has been invaluable.  If you can present yourself intelligently you will get the job over a Dese and Dem guy every time. 

A sociology major, on the other hand.......

Never, ever think that a social science degree will amount to shit in the real world.  Unless you want to be a career civil servant.  And then you're too sacrificial for me to relate to.


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5691843 - 05/30/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
I was a total dumbass in high school....never applied myself, but still managed to pass for a diploma.....if someone cannot pass high school whats makes anyone think that they will pass college....keeping in mind that this is on the taxpayers dime.......




If somebody cannot pass public high school then they are an utter moron or they are trying to fail.  People who fall into either of those categories do not deserve to go to college. :shrug:


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InvisibleRandalFlagg
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5691859 - 05/30/06 06:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A sociology major, on the other hand.......




Silversoul is going to come in a swingin'.

P.S. Do you need any help with your contracting business? I live in PA and I will graduate from a technical school in about nine months. My major is "Maintenance Electricity". We learn residential wiring, commercial wiring, industrial wiring, motor control stuff, and PLC (programmable logic controller) stuff. Gimme a job!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5692290 - 05/30/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
A sociology major, on the other hand.......



You rang? :smirk:


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: The Dumbing of American Standards............. [Re: Silversoul]
    #5692582 - 05/30/06 09:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Well, I think it would be fine if they had some other criteria for gauging an individual's qualification. Go to any community college and you'll see that it doesn't take much intelligence to get in.





What other criteria would you gauge for admission?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


Extras: Filter Print Post Top
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