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pac_man
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Registered: 05/01/06
Posts: 200
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Re: overdose [Re: Asante]
#5693948 - 05/31/06 06:20 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Edited by pac_man (06/17/06 05:42 AM)
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EquilibriuM
dream stalker

Registered: 07/17/05
Posts: 2,323
Last seen: 16 years, 7 months
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Re: overdose [Re: Asante]
#5693970 - 05/31/06 06:36 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I like these definitions....
a dose, which is considerably higher than the effective one, and very near to the toxic one library.thinkquest.org/C0115926/glosary.htm
The inadvertent or deliberate consumption of a dose much larger than that either habitually used by the individual or ordinarily used for treatment of an illness, and likely to result in a serious toxic reaction or death.www.uphs.upenn.edu/addiction/berman/glossary/
When someone has taken a quantity of a substance/drug that endangers his or her life. If someone had died as a result of an excessive use of a substance, it is described as an overdose. www.drugstrategy.central.sa.edu.au/20_druginfo/c_glossary/
dose too heavily; "The rock star overdosed and was found dead in his hotel room" wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
A drug overdose occurs when a chemical substance (i.e. drug) is ingested in quantities and/or concentrations large enough to overwhelm the homeostasis of a living organism, causing severe illness or death. Essentially it is a type of poisoning. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overdose
-------------------- HELP!!!!!!!!!
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capliberty
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Registered: 04/23/06
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Re: overdose [Re: Asante]
#5694000 - 05/31/06 07:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Wiccan_Seeker said:
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even blacking out on shrooms isn't an OD. The guy didn't have to go the hospital
The point is we don't know how dangerous it is yet.
The point is we kinda do know how dangerous it is, Is mushrooms compared to coke, and meth. No it isn't
If you didn't look hard enough, I included a sentence for special people like you that have preconditions or allergic reactions. and thats totally valid, because those special cases do exist. Its not your fault that you had a precondition.
But because someone has a precondition doesn't mean that everyone does. Usually the % is pretty low with this drug. The body can take alot before it goes into shock and you finally kick the bucket or even going through serious complications that need hospital assistants.
I just don't want people to get the false impression that mushrooms has this capability to send you into an OD in general. This is not correct. Going to the hospital is a significant sign of OD. If you recovered fully without any hospital assistants and its a quick recovery, that signifies that it probably wasn't that serious but not all cases OK.
The term OD is used too loosely to describe horrific experiences or you being under some duress, safe drugs can put you under duress, but is going to kill you, NO. Or is going to seriously mess you up permanently NO. Or people would stop doing it, and the drug would be less popular, such as meth. and coke.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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If you didn't look hard enough, I included a sentence for special people like you that have preconditions or allergic reactions. and thats totally valid, because those special cases do exist. Its not your fault that you had a precondition.
I don't have a pre-condition significant with shrooms and never blacked out. I do know shroomerites who get convulsions alot of the time when they dose an eighth, so are forced to dose lower.
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The point is we kinda do know how dangerous it is
OK, produce the scientific link that explains which medical condition causes the blacking out and the convulsions, and that it is low-risk.
These blackouts might well cause permanent brain damage, a bit more every time you get them, your condition gradually worsening over time. We don't know if this happens. We do know however that this brain damage is associated with many kinds of blackouts and chemically induced convulsions by other means. If you mean the layman's gouge of "I know of nobody dying so it must be safe" thats no evidence whatsoever. There needs to be heavy medical research done into these phenomena at high doses, as well as into the "muscle paralysis" symptoms that occur on moderately high doses of many shrooms, mostly woodlovers.
These are all symptoms that do not occur with LSD, so there is no reason to assume shrooms are as safe as LSD. Animal LD50 research tells you not a damn thing. Animals have completely different metabolic and enzymatic enviroments as humans. And they don't even *have* a neocortex, the one thing that makes us human, and which psychedelics act so profoundly upon. In the LD50 tests for TCDD it turned out that one animal was 10.000x more susceptible to dioxin toxicity than the other. Psilocybin is not dioxin, but there is no reason whatsoever why toxicity in humans wouldnt be dramatically higher in humans, or large subgroups of humans with different enzymatic or other conditions, than in animals. In fact, it ios to be expected.
LD50 research is only an indicator, among others, that you can move your pharmaceutical to human volunteers, and then hold clinical trials.
We are in the phase of unsupervised "clinical trials" and what we get is a LOT of people blacking out/losing consciousness/losing muscle control and getting seizures with "our pharmaceutical". In fact so many that it would be withdrawn off the market for further research. Even when it was a pharmaceutical, pure psilocybin was an inpatient drug for specialistic use under close medical supervision, not something you'd pick up a box of at your pharmacy with a script.
So what we in fact know is that things are going wrong in the human volunteers, which is not sufficiently medically investigated.
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But because someone has a precondition doesn't mean that everyone does. Usually the % is pretty low with this drug.
How low? One in a thousand would be reason for significant concern were it an Rx pharm. But probably its a lot closer to one in a few dozen than one in a thousand. Here @ the shroomery you hear these "health situations" all the time, and have heard about them for years.
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Going to the hospital is a significant sign of OD.
You are getting it backward. Many people who REALLY SHOULD BE in a hospital because of drug toxicity don't go there because they choose to ride it out. The risks thereof would be considered unacceptable by the medical community.
Call a medical helpline and ask them if your friend having taken a drug and now having muscle paralysis/convulsions/unrousable unconsciousness requires medical attention. They will verbally beat you up and demand that you call 911 right that instant.
So you might have an OD when taken to the hospital, but many with an OD never make it to the hospital. They ride it out successfully or die. If they recover this is NO JUSTIFICATION WHATSOEVER for them not having been brought to the ER. Thats layman diagnosis witholding medical intervention.
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The body can take alot before it goes into shock and you finally kick the bucket
You sound like a battlefield medic, taking such chances. Are you properly qualified to take such gambles with people's health? Shock isnt the only mechanism of death. And acute risk of death is only one of the tons of reasons why people should be taken to the hospital.
The going mentality is "if you are assumed to be not at risk of death you should not go to the hospital". What kind or life-or-death mentality is that? Especially in the ODD forum you see many young people routinely taking enormous gambles with their health.
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but is going to kill you, NO. Or is going to seriously mess you up permanently NO.
How about a nice cup of post-traumatic stress disorder? Are we in trench warfare against sobriety, where we have to break through the enemy lines of everyday existence to make life worth living? What makes the next fifty years of your life so worthless, that you are willing to risk them as long as you're confident that you will not die? Theres a lot of room for regret in those fifty years if you betted wrong, just ask the gram-shoveling DXM crowd five years from now.
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Or people would stop doing it, and the drug would be less popular, such as meth. and coke.
I don't know where you live, but here in holland psychedelics ARE less popular, less even than meth and coke, *because* of unwanted effects.
You are reverse reading assumptions to derive facts from them. Common sense does not a fact make.
People are getting psychological disorders after doses around 1/8oz. People are getting things like blackouts, loss of consciousness, convulsions and muscle paralysis on high doses. People are getting Hallucinogen Persistent Perceptual Disorder.
Safe it is not. Everything we do brings risks, but the risks of higher doses of shrooms seem to rise pretty fast. Even if someone you know ate 100gr and lived that doesnt make that 1/8oz safe for you, or for that matter even him.
OD in my book is stumbling upon medical complications. it is dependent on the person and the situation. At some days OD may be far away, at others it may be near.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
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Re: overdose [Re: Asante]
#5694159 - 05/31/06 09:14 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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This is what I hate man, have you ever watched the movie DUNE, fear is the mind killer, Its true. All this suggested evidence that all these conditions may arise from Mushrooms. If you believe in it so much maybe you will OD. Everyones paranoia has got me convinced.
I don't know maybe its just me, miles well stop, because you technical jargon got me convinced, dude its up there with crack, If I even dare man, I could seriously OD.
They have done tests to determine the lethal toxicity of ODing on shrooms, its the equivalent of taking 3 times your weight. This amount is impossible to ingest all at once.
Did the guy survive, he did without any medical attention, is he living as he was before he took it, probably. He probably was doing other things and the shrooms put him over the edge. If anything this example was a testament of how shrooms doesn't cause an OD reaction.
Shoot I've blacked out on shrooms. Thats what shrooms do. But I knew it wasn't life threatening. I knew I was going to eventually recover and thats the point I'm making. Not everybody knows this, people all the time freakout and make the drug bigger than it is, marijuana and shrooms are the king of this. Paranoia is the ingredient that turns everybody off, I'm glad it does, because these people want there drugs paranoid free. So they resort to lame drugs like caffeine and cigarettes because it doesn't make them feel like they want to say their ODing.
I've seen people so paranoid that even smelling a small whiff of Marijuana smoke will send on the edge of their seats, and their instantly freaking out, and you know its just all in their head because they didn't even take a toke.
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Asante
Mage


Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 86,795
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Quote:
They have done tests to determine the lethal toxicity of ODing on shrooms, its the equivalent of taking 3 times your weight.
No. That is an extrapolation of data from animal testing. And you can NEVER do that because with almost any psychoactive humans are way more sensitive than most test animals and tend to get far wider ranges of deleterious effects.
The extrapolation is double-wrong, because it translates psilocybin in animals to mushrooms in men, while there is nk knowledge whatsoever that psilocybin is the most significantly toxic substance in man. For all we know the genus Psilocybe may have a strange amino acid (like ibotenic acid in amanitas) perhaps incorporated in its protein, that is harmful.
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This is what I hate man, have you ever watched the movie DUNE, fear is the mind killer, Its true. All this suggested evidence that all these conditions may arise from Mushrooms. If you believe in it so much maybe you will OD. Everyones paranoia has got me convinced.
JUST SAY KNOW It is better to know, than to remain ignorant. It is better to be cautious than to rush in with the fools. Nobody here is being paranoid, not in the medical sense nor the social sense. There is however a denial of probable risks, and that's mostly you 
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Did the guy survive, he did without any medical attention, is he living as he was before he took it, probably. He probably was doing other things and the shrooms put him over the edge. If anything this example was a testament of how shrooms doesn't cause an OD reaction.
I had a heart attack but recovered. I could have done so without the hospitalization. I guess that means I wasn't at risk, and that that means moderate heart attacks do not need medical intervention. Your logic is flawed. For all we know the blackouts *do damage* like many other blackouts do. The going theory is that psilocybe is a poisonous mushroom that has a toxin that causes profound derangements of consciousness and which may cause serious psychologic disturbances. That is what science says.
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Shoot I've blacked out on shrooms. Thats what shrooms do. But I knew it wasn't life threatening. I knew I was going to eventually recover and thats the point I'm making.
That's an opinion. Only a medical investigation can uncover facts which can safely be depended upon.
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you know its just all in their head
So is schizophrenia. These panicky people might well panic because they subconsciously sense that the drug is wrong for them.
We don't want to turn people on. We want that people can make informed decisions about the substances they choose to, or not to, put in their bodies. That in fact is the Shroomery mantra.
If people are so easily scared that a few words will do, then psychedelics might not be a good idea for them in the fiorst place. But what you see here is people walking around with some concerns.
My message to these people is: yes, your concern may have some degree of reality to them. Be risk-conscious and act accordingly.
In ODD we have people shoveling near-lethal doses and coctails all the time. The problem here is not that people are pussies, but rather that they tend to downplay harm and take way bigger risks than many, more mature or informed, people consider wise.
Accept, just like skydiving, that there are risks and act accordingly. But that, just like skydiving, by no means prohibits you from going ahead.
I much rather see people engaged in a lifetime of responsible experimenting with modest doses than take heavy doses a few times under questionable circumstances, and then leaving them be because "mushrooms suck". Taking responsibility is less fun, but a better way to deal with a matter of risk.
"there are old chemists and bold chemists, but not bold old chemists" to quote a chemistry textbook.
-------------------- Omnicyclion.org higher knowledge starts here
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Re: overdose [Re: Asante]
#5694400 - 05/31/06 10:42 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Dude, if people were ODing on shrooms, this forum probably wouldn't exist, Or probably wouldn't exist as big as is now. Special cases do come about but if you want to be hardheaded an act like shrooms is going to make you OD then go ahead believe it, your not going to convince me,
Anyways this not about claiming I got bigger balls than you, or everyone is a pussy because they can't handle the drugs I can handle. I'm giving my prospective on what I think shrooms will do to you. Science I agree can be skewed and it doesn't tell the whole picture. I'm with you there, yeah the lab animals may not be a total accurate gage, but it does give you a ball park answer.
Your saying its totally random though, to each individual, this is where I disagree, if it was totally random, there would be way more reported incidents where people would be ODing, Just look at Crystal meth for example, Not everyone ODs on meth., but if you look at reported incidents, there alot more frequent incidents of people of ODing on it. Making it conclusive that Meth. is a more random situation. Shrooms on the overall, have less frequent OD incidents, its rare, making this conclusive that its not a total random thing.
But anyways I'm sure your hard on your stance, because I know you've went through an OD experience on a certain drug that is usually not considered as an OD type drug. So I'll just let things be and let you have the last word alright. Cause this is pointless to continue on.
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tripballz
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Registered: 05/30/06
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Last seen: 17 years, 7 months
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thanks for the responses, sorry for the badly worded poll, sounded good to me at the time...
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blue.mean.yen
Tripper

Registered: 07/30/09
Posts: 33
Loc: vic, aus
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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a housemate of mine OD'd in New Zealand and had to be ambulanced into hospital. he was paralysed for 6 hours, catatonic for 3. the doctor told him that mushrooms contain relatively inane amounts of arsenic, however as he had consumed a few hundred freshies it was a complete possibility. he has a lump protruding over his occipital lobe about the size of a tennis ball (have a feel next time you have a trip, the area bulbs more depending on the strength) and now suffers from a condition whereby if he suffers concussion, even minor, he will surely die.
overdosing means what it says, you took too much man, too much too much. i OD'd on speed once when i used to argue vehenemously that such a thing was an impossibility. i suffered from unconciousness (which is a potentially life threatening state as the mechanisms telling your lungs to keep filling with air are quite often disabled), epileptic spasms and a pulse over 100. i did not go to hospital, it does not make it any less of an OD though.
i agree however that a lot of people do freak out and claim to have OD'd incorrectly, just as i am sure there have been people who have OD'd and have treated it merely as a god-awful trip. the subjective nature of definition ultimately means that anyone is simultaneously right and wrong on this topic, so all we can do is take the term literally as it is stated. too much man, too much too much.
what we are dealing with here, in any case of any consumption is a change of the brains state. when that state becomes either un-alert or susceptible then too strong a dosage has been administered. that includes i was so stoned i fell down the stairs or jimmy took acid thought he could fly jumped off the roof - whatever..
it is correct however, to state that all overdose only exists in the mind. well everything only exists in the mind!
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