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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Good, Evil, and Free Will
#5688753 - 05/29/06 10:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good, evil, and free will can be thought of as 3 points on a triangle.
Freedom depends on evil to exist.
Though good could easily destroy evil, it allows evil to exist for the sake of free will.
For in a universe that was nothing but good, there would be no freedom.
Though good and evil are enemies, they tolerate eachother in the name of freedom.
Though some blame good for the existence of evil, and some blame freedom for the existence of evil,
the real entity to blame for evil is the person who commits it without good cause!
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5688779 - 05/29/06 10:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If free will really does exist and our actions are not the product of causality, then we would have to concede that our actions are completely random, and therefore, not free.
What thinkest thou?
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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completely random
yes, it was a completely random chance that the universe expanded at the critical rate after the big bang to facilitate the formation of stars, galaxies, and planets.
yes, it was completely random that amino acids formed protiens which led to single-celled organisms and later more complex life.
Yes, the mathematical patterns found everywhere in nature are completely random.
Hey, guess what? I have a bridge for sale. Would you like to buy it?
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5688804 - 05/29/06 10:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: yes, it was a completely random chance that the universe expanded at the critical rate after the big bang to facilitate the formation of stars, galaxies, and planets.
yes, it was completely random that amino acids formed protiens which led to single-celled organisms and later more complex life.
Indeed, so where does free will come in? Was it when the first human organism was spawned? Did a magical light shine down from the heavens and exempt this noble creature and all of his descendants from the physical laws of Nature?
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DoctorJ


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free will came in when life became conscious enough to accept it.
freedom is the true nature of spirit.
the material world is bound by cause and effect.
spirit conforms to much higher laws, but ultimately it conforms to no law but its own. Some spirits are bound by karma, and some are more advanced than this.
"The Tao follows its own ways."
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5688843 - 05/29/06 10:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: the material world is bound by cause and effect.
Yes, and your physical body resides in the material world. It seems that you are proposing that you exist as a physical body in the material world, "bound by cause and effect," but at the same time possess a seperate faculty outside of the material world from which your will derives; strangely enough, the products of your will, your actions, occur in the material world as well, so on what grounds do you assume the existence of this seperate spiritual realm?
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5688854 - 05/29/06 10:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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“When I analyze the process that is expressed in the sentence, “I think,” I find a whole series of daring assertions that would be difficult, perhaps impossible, to prove; for example, that it is I who think, that there must necessarily be something that thinks, that thinking is an activity and operation on the part of a being who is thought of as a cause, that there is an “ego,” and, finally, that it is already determined what is to be designated by thinking -- that I know what thinking is. For if I had not already decided within myself what it is, by what standard could I determine whether that which is just happening is not perhaps “willing” or “feeling?” In short, the assertion “I think” assumes that I compare my state at the present moment with other states of myself which I know, in order to determine what it is.
A thought comes when “it” wishes, and when “I” wish, so that it is a falsification of the facts of the case to say that the subject “I” is the condition of the predicate “think.” It thinks; but that this “it” is precisely the famous old “ego” is, to put it mildly, only a supposition, an assertion, and assuredly not an “immediate certainty.” After all, one has gone too far with this “it thinks” -- even the “it” contains an interpretation of the process, and does not belong to the process itself. One infers here according to the grammatical habit: ‘Thinking is an activity; every activity requires an agent; consequently--” --Friedrich Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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thats my stance, believe it or not, I don't care.
here, try this one on for size:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
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shroomydan
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5688901 - 05/29/06 10:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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These three are certainly related to the point of being a single philosophical problem.
The problematic of evil is difficult when one considers that God is Good.
A good God would not create evil. He would only create good. Yet, God creates beings that are free to choose evil. But if he creates them completely good, then why would they choose evil? It seems that for one to choose evil, there must be some defect in his being. What good rational being would ever freely choose evil?
Some say freedom itself is the defect, but without freedom, love is not possible.
I am convinced that a fourth term needs to be added to the equation, and that fourth term is love. What we are considering is not a triangle of Good, Evil, and Freedom, but rather a tetrahedron: Freedom, Good, Evil, and Love.
A similar tetrahedron exists when considering the four transcendental perfections of being: The One, the True, the Good, and the Beautiful. Some of the medievals dismissed beauty as a mere subjective apprehension of the Good. However, Plato clearly connected the Beautiful with love in his Symposium. In fact, he asserts that beauty is the first of the transcendental forms to be perceived. We know that something is good or true because we perceive it to be beautiful, and we love that which is beatiful. Only through love can one every aproach the One, the True or the Good.
The key to reality is love.
"God is love."
"Without Love in the dream it will never come true."
"Without Love in the dream it will never come true"
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5688914 - 05/29/06 11:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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those who are deceptive have been decieved
for satan is a deciever.
he convinces us that 'I' am more important than 'you'.
he plays to our ego and tries to make existence appear as a competition!
If you see a you and a me, you are being decieved! Satan is on your shoulder, whispering lies into your mind. For truly, we are one.
But if satan didn't do such things, he would not be Satan!
Do't hate the man for doing his job!
he is a tester of the wisdom of souls,
and nothing more.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5688923 - 05/29/06 11:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said: without freedom, love is not possible.
I don't believe in free will, yet I am currently in love. Sure, in essence it is merely a biologically determined emotional response, but I don't see how this makes it any less pleasant, rewarding, or real.
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


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Chemically driven erotic love or infatuation is distinct from self sacrificial love that seeks the good of the other over the good of self. The Greeks called this later kind of love agape.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5688964 - 05/29/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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How can you classify love into different categories if it is always and without exception a subjective experience?
How is altruism incompatible with determinism? Is it not also "chemically driven?" If not, from where is it derived?
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5688966 - 05/29/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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The question is why did Satan fall. If God created him good, then why did he choose evil? It is a mystery which cannot be answered.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5688982 - 05/29/06 11:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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God created him to fall. That was the point.
Satan is God's wisest angel.
Wisdom comes through suffering.
Before the advent of Satan, God was naive. He created evil to gain wisdom.
You cannot rebel against God. Kill him, and he reapears, and you disappear. Rebel against him but you were really working for him the whole time.
you can't fuck God. You can only fuck yourself by going against Him.
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capliberty
Stranger


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5689009 - 05/29/06 11:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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itstarssaddamm, you definitely have gone into the infinite continuum of correlations, I used to do this alot myself and found this exercise of the mind to be useful in certain situations but also pointless in others, Can I ask you what have you gained, intuitive wise from your mental search.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5689016 - 05/29/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: you can't fuck God.
I've known women who often fantasized about doing so.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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send em my way, I'm a real close relative
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: capliberty]
#5689020 - 05/29/06 11:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said: itstarssaddamm, you definitely have gone into the infinite continuum of correlations
Elaborate.
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capliberty
Stranger


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correlations, its like subjective logic to correlate and analysis the world. How you try to differentiate and postulate the nature of reality.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5689040 - 05/29/06 11:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: thats my stance, believe it or not, I don't care.
here, try this one on for size:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager
"That earlier faith is much more like Pascal's belief, which looks, in a terrifying way, something like a constant suicide of reason, a tenacious, long-lived, worm-like reason, which cannot be killed once and for all with a single blow. From the start Christian faith has been sacrifice: a sacrifice of all freedom, all pride, all inherent certainty about one's own spirit, and at the same time slavery and self-mockery, self-mutilation." - Fredrick Nietzsche, Beyond Good and Evil
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: capliberty]
#5689046 - 05/29/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said: Can I ask you what have you gained, intuitive wise from your mental search.
"I know that I know nothing." --Socrates
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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"Love is suicide." -Smashing Pumpkins, 'Bodies'
no one said the truth was pretty
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capliberty
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Something comming from nothing;
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: capliberty]
#5689055 - 05/29/06 11:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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only spirit can make something from nothing
without spirit, nothingness is eternal.
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it stars saddam
Satan

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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: capliberty]
#5689061 - 05/29/06 11:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Stephen Hawking's wave function of the universe, he and others have claimed, shows how our universe could have come into existence without any relation to anything existing prior to it, i.e., could have come out of 'nothing.'"
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capliberty
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5689063 - 05/29/06 11:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That is what the spirit is
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DoctorJ


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Quote:
itstarssaddam said: "Stephen Hawking's wave function of the universe, he and others have claimed, shows how our universe could have come into existence without any relation to anything existing prior to it, i.e., could have come out of 'nothing.'"
Stephen Hawkings has recently admitted that no logical system of understanding could ever possibly explain the totality of experience.
the point of physics is to build spaceships. Not to understand God. Science can't accomplish that.
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capliberty
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5689106 - 05/29/06 11:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I think science itself is a religion, so in way science could explain alot more than we think, but like all religions it has its disposition, Its too dogmatic and rigid and this leads to a feeble process that doesn't glorify or give credit to the supernatural.
such as my interpretation of the spirit.
Edited by capliberty (05/29/06 11:59 PM)
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capliberty
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: capliberty]
#5689131 - 05/30/06 12:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Did I buzz kill this discussion, continue on, Peace out.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: capliberty]
#5689151 - 05/30/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said: a feeble process that doesn't glorify or give credit to the supernatural.
This is because science has found no evidence to suggest such a thing thus far.
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DoctorJ


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no evidence they care to acknowledge 
you know, we used to have a guy on these boards named SWAMI that was a lot like you. He would go around trying to debunk spiritual beliefs...
anyway, he's not around here anymore. I think his name is Mother Shabubu now...
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5690409 - 05/30/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said: The question is why did Satan fall. If God created him good, then why did he choose evil? It is a mystery which cannot be answered.
I can't remember, where I read about that, but perhaps it was in the apocrypha. Satan simply got jealous, as he heard that god wanted man to have the power over the earth. That made him to trick adam through eve. Satan was the first one, earth was promised, then god decided to give all power over earth to human. The gimmick here is, satan is still the overall owner over the 'earth' and human, by having the ultimate power, is to worship satan by using this 
I hope, this did make some sense
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5690423 - 05/30/06 11:56 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: no evidence they care to acknowledge 
Well by all means, share with us this buried evidence.
Quote:
we used to have a guy on these boards named SWAMI that was a lot like you.
he's not around here anymore.
Is that a threat?
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Viveka
refutation bias


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Quote:
"Thinking is an activity; every activity requires an agent; consequently"
An agent is not the totality of the action it performs. Is an agent of the law, the law in it's entirety? Is law something that resides in the physical world? Of course, the purpose and effect of the law are designed to impact the physical, social dynamic which is rooted in the flesh, but it would be a mistake to assume that law doesn't exist simply because it appears to only manifest as a consequence in the physical world. But this idea is a mistake as well because the presence of the law affects people's thoughts. They know the law exists so they may refrain from certain actions. Would you also say that their thoughts don't actually exist?
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5690613 - 05/30/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
shroomydan said: The question is why did Satan fall. If God created him good, then why did he choose evil? It is a mystery which cannot be answered.
I can't remember, where I read about that, but perhaps it was in the apocrypha. Satan simply got jealous, as he heard that god wanted man to have the power over the earth. That made him to trick adam through eve. Satan was the first one, earth was promised, then god decided to give all power over earth to human. The gimmick here is, satan is still the overall owner over the 'earth' and human, by having the ultimate power, is to worship satan by using this 
I hope, this did make some sense
you are right in some ways
though the deed to earth is in satan's name, God is the cosigner. Its only by virtue of God's credit that satan is able to rule the earth.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
DoctorJ said: no evidence they care to acknowledge 
Well by all means, share with us this buried evidence.
that you'll have to find yourself. Its out there. "I can only show you the door. you have to step through it." Perhaps you should read: "The Ancient Secret of the Flower of Life" by Drunvalo Melchizedek. I think you'll enjoy it. Its much more powerful than what you are practicing now.
Quote:
Quote:
we used to have a guy on these boards named SWAMI that was a lot like you.
he's not around here anymore.
Is that a threat?
uhhh... You must have a lot of negative energy inside if you percieve a parable as threat.
relax, dude. I always have your back.
"Though I may not agree with what you say, I'll defend to the death your right to say it."
replace the word 'say' with the word 'do', and there you have my philosophy.
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5690839 - 05/30/06 01:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
shroomydan said: The question is why did Satan fall. If God created him good, then why did he choose evil? It is a mystery which cannot be answered.
I can't remember, where I read about that, but perhaps it was in the apocrypha. Satan simply got jealous, as he heard that god wanted man to have the power over the earth. That made him to trick adam through eve. Satan was the first one, earth was promised, then god decided to give all power over earth to human. The gimmick here is, satan is still the overall owner over the 'earth' and human, by having the ultimate power, is to worship satan by using this 
I hope, this did make some sense
you are right in some ways
though the deed to earth is in satan's name, God is the cosigner. Its only by virtue of God's credit that satan is able to rule the earth.
The funny thing really is, that Satan, by offering the knowledge of free will to Adam (through the fruit of the tree of knowledge, what is risen consciousness to self-consciousness in primal evolution), Satan handled over the power of the real influence of earth over to human, again, giving in some risk, man could follow 'gods'' ways again, transforming satans realm to a realm of godly laws, what could get tricky, by cause of definition which Satan is the ruler of and they are called 'separation of god's will'  I don't know where this will lead to..
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5690886 - 05/30/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
I don't know where this will lead to..
neither do I, and you have no idea how glad I am for that!
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shroomydan
exshroomerite


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5692500 - 05/30/06 08:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
shroomydan said: The question is why did Satan fall. If God created him good, then why did he choose evil? It is a mystery which cannot be answered.
I can't remember, where I read about that, but perhaps it was in the apocrypha. Satan simply got jealous, as he heard that god wanted man to have the power over the earth. That made him to trick adam through eve. Satan was the first one, earth was promised, then god decided to give all power over earth to human. The gimmick here is, satan is still the overall owner over the 'earth' and human, by having the ultimate power, is to worship satan by using this 
I hope, this did make some sense
I have also heard that story. I believe it is from one of the medieval mystic saints, but I can't remember which one. The sticking point still remains; if God created Satan Good, then why would he become jealous? It seems there must be some defect of character, because jealousy is not good.
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Deviate
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5692644 - 05/30/06 09:26 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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well supposedly free-will gives things the freedom to go bad.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: Deviate]
#5692680 - 05/30/06 09:33 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you are free to succeed, you are also free to fail
If you are free to fly, you are also free to fall.
navigation, people! how many times must I stress the importance of a good moral compass, and proper navigation by it?
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: shroomydan]
#5694275 - 05/31/06 10:08 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
shroomydan said:
Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
Quote:
shroomydan said: The question is why did Satan fall. If God created him good, then why did he choose evil? It is a mystery which cannot be answered.
I can't remember, where I read about that, but perhaps it was in the apocrypha. Satan simply got jealous, as he heard that god wanted man to have the power over the earth. That made him to trick adam through eve. Satan was the first one, earth was promised, then god decided to give all power over earth to human. The gimmick here is, satan is still the overall owner over the 'earth' and human, by having the ultimate power, is to worship satan by using this 
I hope, this did make some sense
I have also heard that story. I believe it is from one of the medieval mystic saints, but I can't remember which one. The sticking point still remains; if God created Satan Good, then why would he become jealous? It seems there must be some defect of character, because jealousy is not good.
I did expect this answer, but remember: "Don't have any gods beside me, because I am a jealeaus god"  Perhaps it is something a little bit different as we understand it today.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: BlueCoyote]
#5698150 - 06/01/06 02:24 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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jealous gods do not exist
but monogamous gods do
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BlueCoyote
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5699185 - 06/01/06 11:33 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Hmm.. I only can imagine that it's meant like, if god sees someone praising something and this someone is not seeing what is behind or the cause, then this is the state what is expressed by the word 'jealous' here. Isn't it about the loose of love (the loose of 'to be loved') ?
Someone here on the board once said that god seems to have the need to constantly prove and assure him/her/itself. I agree here, as he also has the ability to let something be divided from him, divided from the principle of love. So, if Satan got jealous, he saw humans praising god again, instead of him as the ruler of 'human' physical existence. He wanted still to be loved by humans and god. For him, it was like god would put the humans between him and god and therefore he preached and acted like god was on the opposite of him, related to human view (god-human-satan). That is not true, as Satan is still between us and god (god-satan-human). We can praise nature while praising god and we can praise the sun, while praising god. We can praise the universe while praising god. In fact he is the second powerful angel still and very well 'known' to god and possibly Satan is the one, who 'knows' god the best For me they seem still good pals, at least from the view of god  Michael was only temporarily powerful in letting Satan fall (in Satan's realm), as this only means that Satan lost some/most of his supernatural possibilities, as he got 'natural' Michael is 'the shadow' of Satan in 'light', as Satan was before Michael. Perhaps they truly once were one and only got divided by this 'incident'. Nothing to prove yet here.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5699333 - 06/01/06 12:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: Good, evil, and free will can be thought of as 3 points on a triangle.
Freedom depends on evil to exist.
Though good could easily destroy evil, it allows evil to exist for the sake of free will.
For in a universe that was nothing but good, there would be no freedom.
Though good and evil are enemies, they tolerate eachother in the name of freedom.
Though some blame good for the existence of evil, and some blame freedom for the existence of evil,
the real entity to blame for evil is the person who commits it without good cause!
you say God put you here to say these things.
So I ask you, why does your god plan to destroy evil once and for all, and make eternal heaven on earth if he actually needs evil?
Evil is like a malfunction on a car. You don't need to get your car broken to know that It was working once. There are really no benefits of a broken car if your plan is to use it to drive yourself somewhere. Same with evil. Life is a long drive to places, a motion, a progress, and evil is a malfunction that stops you from getting there. When people get touched by evil, the crawl into some hole, die and stink there, without any power to heal themselfs.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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why should there be heaven on earth?
there's already a heaven in heaven!
earth is a proving grounds
heaven is where those who pass their tests go.
reincarnation on earth is for people who still have work to do
hell is for total fuckups who based their lives in torturing others
and outer space is for aliens
and humans who build good spaceships 
Why would God destroy evil? It exists for a good cause!
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Re: Good, Evil, and Free Will [Re: DoctorJ]
#5699806 - 06/01/06 02:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: why should there be heaven on earth?
there's already a heaven in heaven!
earth is a proving grounds
heaven is where those who pass their tests go.
reincarnation on earth is for people who still have work to do
hell is for total fuckups who based their lives in torturing others
and outer space is for aliens
and humans who build good spaceships 
Why would God destroy evil? It exists for a good cause!
Why do you ask me? It's god who plans to make heaven on earth
A human being is not just the spirit, but both the body and the spirit, and gods end plan is to return all souls to flesh and give them eternal bodies in the kingdom of heaven on earth. Heaven is like a temp folder, the real life of human beings as was planed by god from the begining was to live for all eternity in flesh on perfect earth, as humans as real as you and I are, not as some movie-version of ghosts. And that is something god plans to return to after the armagedon, as it was before the first sin and the rebelion of devil.
It is even open to debate wheather Bible even implies that human consciosuness can exist without the body or not.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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