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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Registered: 05/30/05
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??
    #5687970 - 05/29/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What's ever come out of athiest or agnostic philosophy?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688025 - 05/29/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Other philosophies.

Interesting musing......


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: leery11]
    #5688045 - 05/29/06 07:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what good is philosophy if you don't put it to use? and what philosophies could you find that you could not find in believing in one god?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688093 - 05/29/06 07:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that religiouis people can still adopt all the philosophies they want. A Christian nihilist... a Jewish existentialist?

What your post seemed to hint at to me that agnosticism is simply not knowing anything at all.... a giant question...... and that it logically leads to abandoning agnosticism if any part of the question is answered?

Or do you mean agnosticism as an absence of a faith in God, but still philosophically oriented?

I just thought of it like "hey, agnostics disappear once their questioning and doubt is fulfilled."

so that's the only way I know how to respond to what you just said.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: leery11]
    #5688114 - 05/29/06 07:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
I am not sure what you mean.
Are you saying that religiouis people can still adopt all the philosophies they want. A Christian nihilist... a Jewish existentialist?

What your post seemed to hint at to me that agnosticism is simply not knowing anything at all.... a giant question...... and that it logically leads to abandoning agnosticism if any part of the question is answered?

Or do you mean agnosticism as an absence of a faith in God, but still philosophically oriented?

I just thought of it like "hey, agnostics disappear once their questioning and doubt is fulfilled."

so that's the only way I know how to respond to what you just said.




i never hinted anything. i just cant honostley think of anything uniquely constructive from it all. can you?


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688123 - 05/29/06 07:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what i meant was the way you posted it sparked that musing in me....

and i think it's constructive in the sense that it is destructive... it allows one to strip away unnecessary beliefs that are keeping one from being free, happy, and a realized being.

skepticism, basically. challenging, questioning...... I see it as a stepping stone to further realization, the beginning of a personal journey.

And the other edge would simply be, you aren't concerned so you don't bother making any assumptions at all, and you just live concerned with your immediate life.

aside from enlightened ones, aren't we all agnostic though? Sometimes we have something happen that makes us know there is something more out there... but if we don't follow that hint through to supreme unity, aren't we still agnostic.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


Edited by leery11 (05/29/06 07:49 PM)


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: leery11]
    #5688142 - 05/29/06 07:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
what i meant was the way you posted it sparked that musing in me....

and i think it's constructive in the sense that it is destructive... it allows one to strip away unnecessary beliefs that are keeping one from being free, happy, and a realized being.

skepticism, basically. challenging, questioning...... I see it as a stepping stone to further realization, the beginning of a personal journey.

And the other edge would simply be, you aren't concerned so you don't bother making any assumptions at all, and you just live concerned with your immediate life.




well, when your done being skeptical, you'll find yourself right where you started. just living life day to day, right?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlineleery11
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688150 - 05/29/06 07:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

yes. agnosticism seems to be a rejection of your current spiritual upbringings but a nurturance of a desire to acknowladge a greater meaning to life and the universe.


--------------------
I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo!

....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: leery11]
    #5688171 - 05/29/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

leery11 said:
yes. agnosticism seems to be a rejection of your current spiritual upbringings but a nurturance of a desire to acknowladge a greater meaning to life and the universe.




skepticism of god ultimatley leads to the same basic tao principles. which can be found in any religion pretty much.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688190 - 05/29/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

still, to all of you who condemn religious people as foolish or self righteous or arrogant what ever (which is true to a point), i would like to see anyone prove what i'm talking about. that's my proof of a god.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688224 - 05/29/06 08:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm agnostic and it sets me free to follow my own path. Since I don't know I just follow my intuition, make my best guess and that's very satisfying.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: Icelander]
    #5688464 - 05/29/06 09:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm agnostic and it sets me free to follow my own path. Since I don't know I just follow my intuition, make my best guess and that's very satisfying.




i guess that's a good thing in many senses. but what comes out of that other than something for yourself? can that not be achieved in believing in a god anyways?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688627 - 05/29/06 09:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What do you mean by "comes out"?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/29/06 09:48 PM)


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OfflineGomp
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688652 - 05/29/06 09:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
What's ever come out of athiest or agnostic philosophy?




Questioning!?

:confused: :thumbup:


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5688655 - 05/29/06 09:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
What do you mean by "come out"?




what's ever come out of it all? anything good? anything constructive? other than disproving that there is a god (or disproving to believe in god with certainty) with out any real evidence, what has come out of it? i mean, it teaches no values other than "there is no god, so feel free to do what ever you want", which I can't say is a good principle... what has come out of it? anything?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (05/29/06 09:49 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688662 - 05/29/06 09:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Atheism and agnosticism are not philosophies, per se, but differing stances on the religious assertion that God exists.

There are, however, many different philosophies which do not include a supernatural being. Religion is one way to structure your life, one way to determine the "right" course, but it is far from the only way.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5688680 - 05/29/06 09:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Atheism and agnosticism are not philosophies, per se, but differing stances on the religious assertion that God exists.

There are, however, many different philosophies which do not include a supernatural being. Religion is one way to structure your life, one way to determine the "right" course, but it is far from the only way.




athiesm is anti-philosophy considering its the philosophy of what i would call spiritual apathy. and agnosticism is more like the philosophy of... copping out? but let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this. lets look at the solid evidence. name one philosophy of good (contributing to the world, helping others, etc) that is not influenced by religion? and then look at one philosophy influenced by athiesm that has helped anyone or anything?


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688739 - 05/29/06 10:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm agnostic and it sets me free to follow my own path. Since I don't know I just follow my intuition, make my best guess and that's very satisfying.




i guess that's a good thing in many senses. but what comes out of that other than something for yourself? can that not be achieved in believing in a god anyways?




Are you talking about beliving in religion (god) Mostly evil has come out of that.

If I am at peace with my beliefs I'm a much nicer more relaxed guy. That really helps the world, don't you think?


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688818 - 05/29/06 10:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this.




:lol:

A common sentiment among theists.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5688893 - 05/29/06 10:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, I think that scientific progress owes itself to searching for non-theistic explanations of natural phenomena. That is, science doesn't necessarily deny God, but it tries not to assume God's existence.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689194 - 05/30/06 12:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead."
- Kurt Vonnegut

Kurt Vonnegut is a radical atheist, and a secular humanist.

Uh, Kidguard, If I state any particular grassroots organization that doesn't have religion at the center of it, are you going to say that it's still influenced by religion? Because, wherever there are large groups of humans, there are going to be religious people. If you take it in this sense, all groups except Secular Humanism are going to be influenced by some sort of Religion. Which doesn't cut the beans. Humans do good because they like to do good. Adding relgion into the mix seems important in that spirituality is a variable in every person, but ultimately, it's redundant.

Philosophy is not the most productive of endevors. Talking about essence, or debating the existence of matter isn't going to save starving children in Somalia. Sometimes a philosophical meme can create a civilization, and yes, those often have some sort of religion at the center of it.

And I don't know exactly what you are trying to prove here, but "Doing Good Things" because of a philosophy, doesn't necessarily give it merit, nor does it necessarily make it true. Truth is what counts in philosophy. You're looking at it the wrong way.


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ?? [Re: David_Scape]
    #5689235 - 05/30/06 12:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Also, just for the heck of it, here's Isaac Asimov. Another Humanist I believe.

"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time."
- Isaac Asimov


--------------------
focusing
Flow
The Enneagram


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: ?? [Re: David_Scape]
    #5689243 - 05/30/06 12:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Humanism, LOL.

“Benevolence is surely rather pride’s vice than an authentic virtue in the soul; never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man; one would be most annoyed were the alms one has just bestowed not to receive the utmost possible publicity. Nor, Eugenie, are you to imagine that, as is the popular view, this action has only excellent consequences; for my part I behold it as nothing other than the greatest of all duperies; it accustoms the poor man to doles which provoke the deteoration of his energy; when able to expect your charities, he ceases to work and becomes, when they fail him, a thief or assassin. On all sides I hear them ask after the means to suppress mendacity, and meanwhile they do everything possible to encourage it. Would you have no flies in your bedchamber? Don’t spread about sugar to attract them into it. You wish to have no poor in France? Distribute no alms, and above all shut down your poorhouses. The individual born in misfortune thereupon seeing himself deprived of these dangerous crutches, will fend for himself, summoning up all the resources put in him by Nature, to extricate himself from the condition wherein he started life; and he will importune you no longer. Destroy, with entire unpity, raze to the ground, those detestable houses where you billet the progeny of the libertinage of the poor, appaling cloacas, wherefrom everyday spews forth into society a swarm of new-made creatures whose unique hope resides in your purse. What purpose, I ask, is there in preserving such individuals with so much care?” --Marquis de Sade


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: Icelander]
    #5689265 - 05/30/06 12:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:

Icelander said:
I'm agnostic and it sets me free to follow my own path. Since I don't know I just follow my intuition, make my best guess and that's very satisfying.




i guess that's a good thing in many senses. but what comes out of that other than something for yourself? can that not be achieved in believing in a god anyways?




Are you talking about beliving in religion (god) Mostly evil has come out of that.

If I am at peace with my beliefs I'm a much nicer more relaxed guy. That really helps the world, don't you think?




well, nothing evil has come out of believing in god. it's really just overly ambitious people who taint things that fuck shit up. not god. people like catholics exploit god. thinking they can prey to some statue and confess and they're forgiven. that disguists me to be honest.

but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689271 - 05/30/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?




Fear.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689272 - 05/30/06 12:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

well, nothing evil has come out of believing in god.



Depends what kind of God you believe in.


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Offlinecapliberty
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689300 - 05/30/06 12:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?




Fear.




I say that urning from a drive thats rooted by curiosity, Curiosity to see an obtain power, to obtain peace of mind. To always be happy, to have sex with the best women, but sadly curiosity can lead to ones own demise.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689348 - 05/30/06 01:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?




Fear.




what do i fear in helping others? where does that moral come from? fear that the other may die? perhaps, but why would i worry about that. that wouldn't effect me now would it? what has influenced us to form idealism like that? fear of going to hell or some otherworldy punishment id say. that and compassion, but why would we feel compassion for such person if we didnt have morale?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
Strange

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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689351 - 05/30/06 01:02 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this.




:lol:

A common sentiment among theists.




that's not among theists, thats among strong advocaters. ignorance is a common sentiment among athiests.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689385 - 05/30/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?




Fear.




what do i fear in helping others? where does that moral come from? fear that the other may die? perhaps, but why would i worry about that. that wouldn't effect me now would it? what has influenced us to form idealism like that? fear of going to hell or some otherworldy punishment id say. that and compassion, but why would we feel compassion for such person if we didnt have morale?




Fear that if you didn't help others you would not be a wholesome person, or that you would not be viewed as such by society (this especially). Fear that if you don't help others they won't help you.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689390 - 05/30/06 01:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
ignorance is a common sentiment among athiests.




Ignorance of what?


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689402 - 05/30/06 01:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?




Fear.




what do i fear in helping others? where does that moral come from? fear that the other may die? perhaps, but why would i worry about that. that wouldn't effect me now would it? what has influenced us to form idealism like that? fear of going to hell or some otherworldy punishment id say. that and compassion, but why would we feel compassion for such person if we didnt have morale?




Fear that if you didn't help others you would not be a wholesome person, or that you would not be viewed as such by society (this especially). Fear that if you don't help others they won't help you.




so your saying that no one helps anyone if there isnt a selfish reason? anyways, you can be wholesome if your fair. and fair just means balanced. is it balanced to go out of your way to try and help some one if you don't have a motive concerning self image?


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689404 - 05/30/06 01:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
ignorance is a common sentiment among athiests.




Ignorance of what?




read what i said...


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689410 - 05/30/06 01:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
so your saying that no one helps anyone if there isnt a selfish reason?




Yeah.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689416 - 05/30/06 01:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
so your saying that no one helps anyone if there isnt a selfish reason?




Yeah.




that's true for people like you, obviously.


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
Satan

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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689427 - 05/30/06 01:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ad hominem.


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689435 - 05/30/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Humanism, LOL.

“Benevolence is surely rather pride’s vice than an authentic virtue in the soul; never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man; one would be most annoyed were the alms one has just bestowed not to receive the utmost possible publicity. Nor, Eugenie, are you to imagine that, as is the popular view, this action has only excellent consequences; for my part I behold it as nothing other than the greatest of all duperies; it accustoms the poor man to doles which provoke the deteoration of his energy; when able to expect your charities, he ceases to work and becomes, when they fail him, a thief or assassin. On all sides I hear them ask after the means to suppress mendacity, and meanwhile they do everything possible to encourage it. Would you have no flies in your bedchamber? Don’t spread about sugar to attract them into it. You wish to have no poor in France? Distribute no alms, and above all shut down your poorhouses. The individual born in misfortune thereupon seeing himself deprived of these dangerous crutches, will fend for himself, summoning up all the resources put in him by Nature, to extricate himself from the condition wherein he started life; and he will importune you no longer. Destroy, with entire unpity, raze to the ground, those detestable houses where you billet the progeny of the libertinage of the poor, appaling cloacas, wherefrom everyday spews forth into society a swarm of new-made creatures whose unique hope resides in your purse. What purpose, I ask, is there in preserving such individuals with so much care?” --Marquis de Sade




Wow. I remember De sade. Heavy stuff. I actually planned on buying one of his books, but then I thought better of it... decided not to. I don't remember what exactly stopped me, but I think reading about male buggery kinda scared me off. Have you read one of his books, Itsstarsaddam?

Quote:

Humanism, LOL.



What's your beef with humanism? I'm not a humanist, but I can't say I read anything relevant to it in your quote of De sade.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: ?? [Re: David_Scape]
    #5689443 - 05/30/06 01:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

David_Scape said:
Have you read one of his books, Itsstarsaddam?




All of them.

Quote:

I'm not a humanist, but I can't say I read anything relevant to it in your quote of De sade.




"...never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man"


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689453 - 05/30/06 01:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Ad hominem.




cunning. but in a sense, you are right. we all are selfish in that sense of fear. but what's wisdom with out fear? what do you fear?


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OfflineDavid_Scape
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689491 - 05/30/06 01:40 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I don't want to hijack the thread, but which book of his represents him the strongest? I want to get one, but I will probably not read all of his books, so make sure it is all Sade.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: David_Scape]
    #5689501 - 05/30/06 01:44 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

"...never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man"





prove it. that's an athiests out look on good actions. not to mention a pessemists. what about charity services. people who donate anonymously to them but don't tell other people. they feel they are doing good. and maybe in gods eyes that will make him a better person.

see, philosophies like that are negative. and negativity doesnt help anyone. and you'd have to be very selfish to believe that. sounds to me like who ever wrote that has never heard of unconditional love.


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (05/30/06 01:51 AM)


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5689549 - 05/30/06 02:10 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

itstarssaddam said:
Ad hominem.




do you consider pulling that reasonable enough to make my point invalid? but first i should see what it is you find objectionable about me. anyhow, if that's the case. ad hominem to you!


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (05/30/06 02:11 AM)


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689831 - 05/30/06 06:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
still, to all of you who condemn religious people as foolish or self righteous or arrogant what ever (which is true to a point), i would like to see anyone prove what i'm talking about. that's my proof of a god.




Believing that religion is bad.........doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in God.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
what's ever come out of it all? anything good? anything constructive? other than disproving that there is a god (or disproving to believe in god with certainty) with out any real evidence, what has come out of it? i mean, it teaches no values other than "there is no god, so feel free to do what ever you want", which I can't say is a good principle... what has come out of it? anything?




Do you honestly think that people who don't believe in God have no morals?

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
athiesm is anti-philosophy considering its the philosophy of what i would call spiritual apathy. and agnosticism is more like the philosophy of... copping out?




You are making some VERY large assumptions my friend.

Very large indeed.

Quote:

but let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this. lets look at the solid evidence. name one philosophy of good (contributing to the world, helping others, etc) that is not influenced by religion?




There has been no good done by religions on a "global scale". Virtually every war, ever fought, was over some religious/political issue.

Organized Religion can only bring out the worst in people.

Quote:

and then look at one philosophy influenced by athiesm that has helped anyone or anything?




Some of our greatest thinkers were more "agnostic" than devoted to any "religion".



From what I have seen, people who claim they are Atheists are really Agnostic. They claim Atheism because they don't want to discuss religion with you. I have not met a true atheist, in my life. Once you get to know these people you realize they DO believe in some higher power, they are just greatly turned off by organized religion.

An agnostic does believe in a "God/Higher Conscious", we just believe that no one religion has the whole truth.

Most "religious" people are agnostic.
They just follow their given religion out of fear.


--------------------
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Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5689950 - 05/30/06 08:16 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?

Good question I think. :thumbup: My guess from self observation is, unconditional self acceptance and a relaxed body.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
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Re: ?? [Re: Icelander]
    #5689954 - 05/30/06 08:19 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Icelander said:
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?

right intention


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: niteowl]
    #5690032 - 05/30/06 09:09 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
From what I have seen, people who claim they are Atheists are really Agnostic. They claim Atheism because they don't want to discuss religion with you. I have not met a true atheist, in my life. Once you get to know these people you realize they DO believe in some higher power, they are just greatly turned off by organized religion.

An agnostic does believe in a "God/Higher Conscious", we just believe that no one religion has the whole truth.

Most "religious" people are agnostic.
They just follow their given religion out of fear.





You've met one now. I believe in no higher power(s), and will deny any more mainstream (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) god. I really can't touch the deist god(s), though (unless the claim is made that the deist god is perfect).

(Will post something with more relevance in a number of hours, gotta leave now.)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5690200 - 05/30/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Atheism and agnosticism are not philosophies, per se, but differing stances on the religious assertion that God exists.

There are, however, many different philosophies which do not include a supernatural being. Religion is one way to structure your life, one way to determine the "right" course, but it is far from the only way.




athiesm is anti-philosophy considering its the philosophy of what i would call spiritual apathy. and agnosticism is more like the philosophy of... copping out?




Again, atheism and agnosticism are not philosophies, in the sense that they do not seek to address any quesions beyond "does God exist?" Atheism says "no, God does not exist." Agnosticism says "it is unknown or unknowable whether God exists."

Philosophy addresses many other questions beyond the existence of a supernatural being. "Doing whatever you want" is not addressed by theism, atheism or agnosticism. For questions regarding the rightness/wrongness of behaviors, we can turn to ethical philosophy. One system of ethics is called "Supernaturalism," and defines what is ethical as that which God endorses. All other ethical philosophies do not include the opinion of a deity when defining ethical behavior.

Quote:

but let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this. lets look at the solid evidence. name one philosophy of good (contributing to the world, helping others, etc) that is not influenced by religion? and then look at one philosophy influenced by athiesm that has helped anyone or anything?




Belief in God does not create compassion, any more than disbelief in God eliminates compassion. Someone who is interested in contributing, helping, teaching, guiding, may be influenced by religion. They also may be an Epicurean Hedonist, pursuing that which feels good to them. They might also be a Secular Humanist, as one of their tenets is:

Quote:

Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.




Just as mature adults do not need constant supervision by a parent to prevent them from "misbehaving," we do not need supervision by a supernatural being in order to be ethical, compassionate, concerned and benevolent.


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Invisibleit stars saddam
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Re: ?? [Re: David_Scape]
    #5690204 - 05/30/06 10:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

David_Scape said:
I don't want to hijack the thread, but which book of his represents him the strongest? I want to get one, but I will probably not read all of his books, so make sure it is all Sade.




Philosophy In The Bedroom.


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5690408 - 05/30/06 11:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

We don't need a supernatural being, yes, but without this supernatural being, the question is: why act differently from animals?
We are animals, so why pretend we are not?


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I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5690424 - 05/30/06 11:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Animals cooperate and care for others of their kind, some even adopt orphans of other species.

Humans are capable of considering how they wish to use their life. We can pursue entertainment, power, wisdom, fame, fortune, pleasure, and positive contribution. No need for Big Daddy looming over our shoulders to ensure that we will be "good," we can choose for ourselves.

Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5690431 - 05/30/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.




Blasphemer!



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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: it stars saddam]
    #5691037 - 05/30/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

philosophy

1. the rational investigation of questions about existence and knowledge and ethics

2. any personal belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation; "self-indulgence was his only philosophy"; "my father's philosophy of child-rearing was to let mother do it"

athiesm is the belief that there is not a god.

agnostocism is the belief taht there is no way to prove god.




Quote:

Do you honestly think that people who don't believe in God have no morals?




where do you think those morals came from? it certainly wasnt other athiests which influenced there good moral structure. was it? but answer me this, out of the philosophy of athiesm: what good has come out of it? I can't think of any, but I garauntee you if you do, you will find that they are all influenced by morale. and that morale is the base of theistic religions which was not influenced by athiesm. the morale supposedly is "god's will for man." moral was set into man kind by religion. (on a side note, in western civilizations are morale is very backwards. but i think that will change sooner or later) now I'm not making any definate claims, but if you can answer that question for me, that'd be great.


Quote:

Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.




that's the definition of morale pretty much. i'm saying, why do we have morals? to avoid punishment, yes. but punishment from what? other people? well, why do other people have morals? and once again, how were the morals set in? is morale bad?


Quote:

There has been no good done by religions on a "global scale". Virtually every war, ever fought, was over some religious/political issue.

Organized Religion can only bring out the worst in people.




and that could not be more wrong. you see, there are good people who follow religion. what you fail to realize is the better in people. the people who start wars are doing exactly what most religions want them to not do. you can make alot more change with one year of dialectic debate than 100 years of war. the way I see it, war is like smacking your kid when he won't stop doing something. and that does work, sometimes. i.e. germany ww2. but if you really wanna get peace to stay, you gotta use words.

and to directly answer your statement, other than peace corp, independent charity services(churches and others) i can't think of any athiest affiliated services going out to help people in somalia who are starving... and if there are, that would be of good moral. and once again, where did that moral come from?

that aside, who created peace corps? and what was the country founded on?


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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5691240 - 05/30/06 04:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
What's ever come out of athiest or agnostic philosophy?




Yes, it is impossible to validate or substantiate in any consensual manner the existance of a God, as the only evidence that could demonstrate God's existance is solely within the realm of personal experience, which is subject to the imagination and misunderstanding.

Thus, someone who, for whatever reason, decides to believe in the existance of a God has absolutely nothing to use to show individuals who have not created a belief in God for themself that they are "wrong", so it simply becomes a matter of personally attacking athiests and agnostics, exclaiming "What's ever to come from their philosophies, and why couldn't anything that might come from their philosophies not come out from a belief in God?". :rolleyes:

What is ever going to come from creating threads posing such pointless questions? :lol:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5691262 - 05/30/06 04:24 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

You are assuming that morals only come from "God"

God and religion were invented by man.
All religious dogma was invented by man.
So all morals come from man..........not God

People who live in a society do good for the betterment of their society
Not for some reward, after they die, from some unknowable "God"


--------------------
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Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5691310 - 05/30/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

OK, if we go with the second definition of philosophy:

Quote:

any personal belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation.




How exactly is the belief that God does not exist, or that the existence of God is unknowable, a belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation? What is the situation? That some people claim God exists?

Once you have decided that your "best guess" is that God does not exist, you still have any number of options for beliefs about how to live. I have met far more rational, ethical, honest atheists and agnostics than I have tolerant, respectful, intelligent theists.

What does that tell us about belief in God? Not much. Perhaps the theists I have met were an unusually stupid, bigoted, short-sighted, rude selection of believers. Perhaps the atheists I have met were unusually ethical and honest. I truly don't think that their belief or disbelief in a supernatural being had much to do with it.

You may wish to review Buddhism as an excellent example of an "atheist" philosophy which contains clear moral/ethical guidelines.

Stating that all ethical/moral principles were created by God presupposes that God, in fact, exists. It far simpler to state that humans have developed ethical rules to enable us to live with one another peacefully. See? No supernatural beings required, Bible sold separately.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5691458 - 05/30/06 05:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I'm going to quote one example of an atheistic ethical code. I'm directly quoting something I wrote, because I came up with it in the absence of religion. My family was/is only weakly religious, and I knew it was all BS from roughly age 8 onwards.

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Definitions:
d1. An object or concept is objective if it is true/existent for all observers.
d2. An object or concept is subjective if it is not objective.
d3. Existence is characterized by interaction. Anything that has an effect on another existing body exists.
d4. Free will is freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes

Postulates:
p1. I am a thinking being. The ultimate nature of my own mind is irrelevant to this fact. (Cogito ergo sum.)
p2. I am able to perceive reality. (Not necessarily the entirety of reality, but my observations are valid, if possibly incomplete.)
p3. The universe is able to be understood by human intelligences.

Conclusions:
c1. Humanity exists (p2)
c2. Humans have many differing concepts of morality (p2)
c3. Morality is subjective (c2, d1, d2)
c4. Like circumstances produce like results (p2, p3)
c5. The concept of free will is meaningless (d4, c4)

Theory of Ethics

In the absence of any objective morality, the interests of intelligent beings is the highest goal for said beings. It is within the interests of intelligent beings to promote the happiness (utility) of themselves.

Thus, actions which increase the utility of said intelligences are the highest goals.

The utility of a society is protected by certain rules. Such rules are called ?natural rights.? The concept of natural rights are significantly more conducive to utility then the violation of natural rights for the sake of increased utility. One would require generally unrealistic benefits from such a violation in order that said violation could be justified.




As for some other benefits of atheism (this does not say correlation/causation, but it brings up a VERY interesting point)

http://tinyurl.com/prhtk (google search, didn't want this thread to force side-scrolling)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence
http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html
http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison2.html

Atheists are dramatically underrepresented in prisons. They're also dramatically overrepresented among the most educated/intelligent people in the world. There's gotta be something to it, one way or the other.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


Edited by Xanthas (05/30/06 05:15 PM)


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691482 - 05/30/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.




Religious morality is not all about punishment and fear. It's about the premise that humans are not mere animals but have spirit, which works on compleatly different principles from animal flesh.

If there is no spirit, then we are flesh, and flesh acts as flesh feels like acting.
And human flesh has all kinds of feelings like urges to kill, to rape, to steal etc.
I've felt all of these urges. Yet, the reason I never considered any of it is because I believe my life has a purpuse higher than that which I give it myself, not because I fear punishment. Because I believe love is the driving force of my being, not survival.
And love does not exist as anything but a natural tool for survival within limits of atheism.


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I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5691485 - 05/30/06 05:15 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Atheists are dramatically underrepresented in prisons. There's gotta be something to it, one way or the other.




Quote:

According to a February 1995 Gallup poll, 96 percent of all Americans believe in God, and 88 percent affirm the importance of religion. However, the degree of religiosity within this group varies considerably. Only 35 percent can be classified as "religious," using a definition that requires them to consider religion important and attend religious services at least once a week.




:shrug:  Atheists are just a smaller percentage of the population, and therefore a small percentage of the sub-set of prison inmates.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691503 - 05/30/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Atheists are dramatically underrepresented in prisons. There's gotta be something to it, one way or the other.




Quote:

According to a February 1995 Gallup poll, 96 percent of all Americans believe in God, and 88 percent affirm the importance of religion. However, the degree of religiosity within this group varies considerably. Only 35 percent can be classified as "religious," using a definition that requires them to consider religion important and attend religious services at least once a week.




:shrug:  Atheists are just a smaller percentage of the population, and therefore a small percentage of the sub-set of prison inmates.




Incorrect.

If atheists make up about 4% of the population, then if they are just as irrational/stupid as most of humanity, they should make up about 4% of the prison population.

However, atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population. This leads us to the natural conclusion that... (anyone?)


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


Edited by Xanthas (05/30/06 05:18 PM)


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OfflineOldWoodSpecter
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5691516 - 05/30/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Atheists are clever enough to stay out of prisons. They are usually intelligent, as far as I can see.
Intelligent enough to release themselfs from dogmas, but not intelligent enough to know that logic is futile without fuel (premises)


--------------------
I descend upon your earth from the skies
I command your very souls you unbelievers
Bring before me what is mine


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Re: ?? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5691521 - 05/30/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Religious morality is not all about punishment and fear. It's about the premise that humans are not mere animals but have spirit, which works on compleatly different principles from animal flesh.

If there is no spirit, then we are flesh, and flesh acts as flesh feels like acting.
And human flesh has all kinds of feelings like urges to kill, to rape, to steal etc.
I've felt all of these urges. Yet, the reason I never considered any of it is because I believe my life has a purpuse higher than that which I give it myself, not because I fear punishment. Because I believe love is the driving force of my being, not survival.
And love does not exist as anything but a natural tool for survival within limits of atheism.




Why does love require the existence of God? Why does human spirit, and therefore spirituality, require the existence of a higher power?

Could human spirit be the highest power? Could love, in fact, be the immortal spiritual energy within each of us?

Why does eliminating the "God variable" from this equation suddenly make it equal to zero?

My best guess is that there is not a higher power. I do not rape, steal, kill, or sacrifice live chickens under the full moon. What is it within me which restrains all my wild animal impulses? God? The Bible? Desire to go to Heaven? Belief that I am more than an animal, 'cause God made me that way? No.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: OldWoodSpecter]
    #5691565 - 05/30/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

OldWoodSpecter said:
Atheists are clever enough to stay out of prisons. They are usually intelligent, as far as I can see.
Intelligent enough to release themselfs from dogmas, but not intelligent enough to know that logic is futile without fuel (premises)




Yes, IQ score and religiosity do have a negative correlation, but this appears to be linked more to education level than innate intelligence.


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Invisiblevampirism
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5691620 - 05/30/06 05:40 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, you know, most of modernity and modernism. Nothin much.


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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5691638 - 05/30/06 05:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
If atheists make up about 4% of the population, then if they are just as irrational/stupid as most of humanity, they should make up about 4% of the prison population.

However, atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population. This leads us to the natural conclusion that... (anyone?)




Statistically, atheists are highly educated and have a higher per-capita income than theists.  Educated, white-collar Americans are less likely to end up in State or Federal prison.

Women are vastly underrepresented in State (7%) and Federal (5%) prisons, as well.  These numbers are astonishing when you realize that roughly 51% of the U.S. population is comprised of women.  Does this mean that we are more ethical?  :grin:


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691650 - 05/30/06 05:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

These numbers are astonishing when you realize that roughly 51% of the U.S. population is comprised of women. Does this mean that we are more ethical?

If relationship aggression was a crime, you'd see the statistics between male and female incarceration even out. Prwomise.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691681 - 05/30/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You are assuming that morals only come from "God"

God and religion were invented by man.
All religious dogma was invented by man.
So all morals come from man..........not God





Well, supposedly the morals to follow were told by god to man. Certain people were his disciples, and that's how the bible was written. But you see that as a crock of shit? Well, look at the prophecies and then bible codes and tell me there is not some divine coorelation behind it all.

Quote:

How exactly is the belief that God does not exist, or that the existence of God is unknowable, a belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation? What is the situation? That some people claim God exists?




our morals are "supposedly" appointed from man by god. If said hypothesis(theory even?) is true, that would mean if no one ever believed in god, we would have morale only measurable on a mutual level.

Quote:

You may wish to review Buddhism as an excellent example of an "atheist" philosophy which contains clear moral/ethical guidelines.




tell me about the history of buddhism. I know it came about when siddhartha (thats his name right?) was fasting for 56 days in meditation. But did he not have family or friends to influence what he believed. Were his family/friends influenced by a religion or anything? Was he just completley iscolated and realized this? Infact... wasnt he a prince or something of some dynasty?

I'll bet you ANYTHING he was somewhat influenced by outside morale/s. And that outside morale (of others) is what I have been talking about this whole entire time, theism. Morale and wisdom begin at fear of god.

Now, I'm not saying athiests CANT have morale, but once again. What constructive philosophy has come directly out of athiesm or agnostocism with out influence of something outside of athiesm or agnostocism?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5691683 - 05/30/06 05:53 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Relationship aggression? Hm...is a woman more likely to be killed or beaten by her male partner, or vice versa?
(85% vs. 15%)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ipv...20by%20partner'

Are you discussing emotional aggression? Vying for relational power?

(BTW, my original point was that women are NOT necessarily more ethical, simply because they are underrepresented in the prison population.)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691695 - 05/30/06 05:54 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Are you discussing emotional aggression?

Yes ma'am.


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691698 - 05/30/06 05:55 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Xanthas said:
If atheists make up about 4% of the population, then if they are just as irrational/stupid as most of humanity, they should make up about 4% of the prison population.

However, atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population. This leads us to the natural conclusion that... (anyone?)




Statistically, atheists are highly educated and have a higher per-capita income than theists.  Educated, white-collar Americans are less likely to end up in State or Federal prison.

Women are vastly underrepresented in State (7%) and Federal (5%) prisons, as well.  These numbers are astonishing when you realize that roughly 51% of the U.S. population is comprised of women.  Does this mean that we are more ethical?  :grin:




and in my experience, athiests lack a certain level of compassion and will to do good unless it was set in by others. and who set that in to the others?


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5691706 - 05/30/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

let's take this one step at a time though. don't bring sex into it.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691707 - 05/30/06 05:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Well, from what I've heard, cases of domestic abuse where a woman beats her husband are widely underreported, and in half the cases of domestic violence, the woman is the first to use physical force, even though it's the guy who usually goes to jail.


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691727 - 05/30/06 05:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Relationship aggression? Hm...is a woman more likely to be killed or beaten by her male partner, or vice versa?
(85% vs. 15%)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ipv...20by%20partner'

Are you discussing emotional aggression? Vying for relational power?

(BTW, my original point was that women are NOT necessarily more ethical, simply because they are underrepresented in the prison population.)




ha.
typical response.

you need to understand the dynamism involved with domestic violence.
males and females tend to deal with anger and frustation differently.
men may get violent or yell.
women tend to run and shut down, fail to communicate.

both are equally guilty.

a woman who doesn't communicate opens up a valve within herself, which opens up the valves of all around her.
or a man that opens his valve and becomes violent, will open the valves of other men around him into violence as well.

just because a wife is quiet and soft spoken and her husband is physically or verbally abusive.
he isn't worse than her, even though statistics might say so.
hitting is a crime, shutting down and not communicating honestly should be a crime.
and if it was, statistics would show male and female are equally to blame in all domestic violence cases.


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Re: ?? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5691735 - 05/30/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Buddha's real name is Siddartha Gautama. Siddartha means "every wish fulfilled." He was born in 563 B.C. in the small republic of Sakka, Southern Nepal. He was born to a ruler and later tradition saw him as the son of a king. His father's name was King Suddhodana, and his mother's name was Queen Maya. One week after Gautama was born, his mother died. It was said that he enjoyed life and was given the best possible education. He was showered with the luxuries of living. Gautama became overwhelmed with the conviction that his life was filled with suffering and unhappiness; therefore, he began to take interest in religious and philosophical thoughts. There were two things that may have caused his spiritual tendencies. One may have been the loss of his mother at birth and the other may have been the position of the weak Sakya kingdom which was about to be taken over by its powerful neighboring enemies.


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Re: ?? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5691738 - 05/30/06 06:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Again, I was using that statistic to show that women are not necessarily more ethical, non-violent & all-around sweethearts just because they are underrepresented in prisons. (As are atheists).

As my statistics professor loved to say, correlation does not equal causation.

(Women are less likely to physically abuse and kill their partners, though. Some shoving may go unreported, but serious beatings and murder do not.)


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Re: ?? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5691772 - 05/30/06 06:06 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Telepylus said:
Quote:

Veritas said:
Relationship aggression?  Hm...is a woman more likely to be killed or beaten by her male partner, or vice versa?
(85% vs. 15%)

http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/pdf/ipv...20by%20partner'

Are you discussing emotional aggression? Vying for relational power?

(BTW, my original point was that women are NOT necessarily more ethical, simply because they are underrepresented in the prison population.)




ha.
typical response.

you need to understand the dynamism involved with domestic violence.
males and females tend to deal with anger and frustation differently.
men may get violent or yell.
women tend to run and shut down, fail to communicate.

both are equally guilty.

a woman who doesn't communicate opens up a valve within herself, which opens up the valves of all around her.
or a man that opens his valve and becomes violent, will open the valves of other men around him into violence as well.

just because a wife is quiet and soft spoken and her husband is physically or verbally abusive.
he isn't worse than her, even though statistics might say so.
hitting is a crime, shutting down and not communicating honestly should be a crime.
and if it was, statistics would show male and female are equally to blame in all domestic violence cases.




I don't think you actually read my post.  I was attempting to clarify whether he was referring to physical aggression or emotional aggression.  I also said, quite clearly, that I did not believe that women were more ethical than men, simply because they were underrepresented in prison.

I do not however, agree that dishonesty and failure to communicate should be punished by imprisonment.  (The prisons are overcrowded as it is! :eek:) Men and women are equally "guilty" of lying and hiding their true intentions from one another.


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691782 - 05/30/06 06:08 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

yea, i agree with you.
sorry my mistake, i should've read the whole thread before i got involved.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: Telepylus]
    #5691791 - 05/30/06 06:10 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

S'Okay.  Many women are prone to man-bashing, I just don't happen to be one of them.  It is much more interesting to examine us all as humans, anyway. :grin:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5691825 - 05/30/06 06:16 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Bah. I hope the both of you are exaggerating your actual stance on this.

Physical violence seems more destructive and harmful than social aggression or dishonesty. Turning social dishonesty or failure to communicate into an arrestable offense seems ludicrus. I can understand throwing a wife-beater in jail, but locking up a husband-liar-to? I tink itz a bit Xtreme.

Instead of throwing everyone in jail, maybe we should recognize that neither sex has a monopoly on "good relationship skills"?


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/30/06 06:19 PM)


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OfflineTelepylus
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Re: ?? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5691846 - 05/30/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

the way i see things
the force of pain and suffering moves through the world
just like the force of joy and peace

violence, social agression, dishonesty, its all the same primordial energy- garmonbozia (pain and suffering)

when i spoke about the valves opening
all human beings have this valve

and no violence is not more destructive than greed or lust or dishonesty or anything else

it's all the same energy, and you either allow it flow through you, or you don't.
anger and rage and lies are all poisonous, and when we are honest with ourselves, none of us want that.

people can still be deeply disturbed and evil, yet never be violent-
they may cause others to be violent though. see how that works?


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5691847 - 05/30/06 06:22 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

IIRC, women are statistically more likely to attempt to physically harm their spouses, though males are more likely to injure their spouse.

As for the male/female dichotomy in prison populations, I propose a number of factors.

Females that I have seen are generally less physically aggressive. They express anger in entirely different ways.

Secondly, juries generally tend to go easier on females. Easy to find an example- If you see a male standing over an unconscious female body on the street, breathing hard, what's your gut-level reaction? Reverse the situation, and you get an entirely different reaction.

Thirdly, males are less average, on the whole, then females. They have more clusters on either end of the intelligence spectrum, and I'll wager on aggressiveness and emotional/mental stability as well.

(I do think this is getting a little off topic, though)

My point on intelligence, however, still stands. And education, FYI, does not increase intelligence, only knowledge. Both decrease the likelihood of going to jail, however. Even as such, what would cause atheists to be more highly educated then their theist counterparts? Or mayhap it's education that increases atheism? (Read the Wikipedia link, it details it better then I have.)


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Edited by Xanthas (05/30/06 06:25 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5691865 - 05/30/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

And education, FYI, does not increase intelligence, only knowledge.

Nuh uh. Read this:
http://language.la.psu.edu/~thorne/Intelligence2005.pdf


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5691981 - 05/30/06 06:56 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
And education, FYI, does not increase intelligence, only knowledge.

Nuh uh. Read this:
http://language.la.psu.edu/~thorne/Intelligence2005.pdf




A most delicious study. But my original point still stands. Atheists are not selected to be given a better/more rigorous education.


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Edited by Xanthas (05/30/06 06:57 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5692001 - 05/30/06 07:01 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Never disagreed with your original point.  :wink: In fact, I rather like it.


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Re: ?? [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5692467 - 05/30/06 08:43 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

:confused:  I am not exaggerating my stance, which is that men and women both participate in relationships in dysfunctional ways.  Men tend to be more physically aggressive, while women tend to be emotionally aggressive.

How was this exaggerated??


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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5692519 - 05/30/06 08:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
IIRC, women are statistically more likely to attempt to physically harm their spouses, though males are more likely to injure their spouse.




Source? I know that women are more likely to attempt suicide, while men are more likely to "succeed" at killing themselves, but I have never heard any statistics about "attempting to harm."

Quote:

Secondly, juries generally tend to go easier on females. Easy to find an example- If you see a male standing over an unconscious female body on the street, breathing hard, what's your gut-level reaction? Reverse the situation, and you get an entirely different reaction.




When would the jury get the chance to see the crime seconds after it happened? Are you saying that they are more likely to believe in a man's guilt when presented with a murder case? Again, source, please. I hear this myth propagated all the time & I call bullshit.

Quote:

Thirdly, males are less average, on the whole, then females. They have more clusters on either end of the intelligence spectrum.




According to whom? If you wish to express your opinion, then do so via phrases like "I believe" or "I think," rather than making definitive statements or citing statistical likelihood.

If you are presenting the results of research, verify your information & hook us up with a link, if possible. Thanks!

Quote:

And education, FYI, does not increase intelligence, only knowledge. Both decrease the likelihood of going to jail, however.




I did not say that education increased intelligence, I said that education was the variable negatively correlated to religiosity, rather than IQ. The original research had been on IQ scores & religious belief, but later research revealed that education level was the pivotal variable.

Quote:

Even as such, what would cause atheists to be more highly educated then their theist counterparts? Or mayhap it's education that increases atheism?




The theory is that education reduces the likelihood of remaining religious, rather than atheism increasing the likelihood of pursuing higher education. See the original link I posted for a brief explanation of this idea.


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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5693050 - 05/30/06 10:47 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I was referring to the statement: "I do not however, agree that dishonesty and failure to communicate should be punished by imprisonment."

I failed to notice the "not". :mad:


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5693141 - 05/30/06 11:07 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Xanthas said:
IIRC, women are statistically more likely to attempt to physically harm their spouses, though males are more likely to injure their spouse.




Source? I know that women are more likely to attempt suicide, while men are more likely to "succeed" at killing themselves, but I have never heard any statistics about "attempting to harm."




http://www.csulb.edu/~mfiebert/assault.htm http://
www.familytx.org/research/Control_DV_against_men.pdf

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Secondly, juries generally tend to go easier on females. Easy to find an example- If you see a male standing over an unconscious female body on the street, breathing hard, what's your gut-level reaction? Reverse the situation, and you get an entirely different reaction.




When would the jury get the chance to see the crime seconds after it happened? Are you saying that they are more likely to believe in a man's guilt when presented with a murder case? Again, source, please. I hear this myth propagated all the time & I call bullshit.




The jury does not need to see the crime. My example was one of what most people have as, as I said, a gut-level reaction.

Another one, if you so like. You're living in an apartment. You can often hear, in the apartment below/above/beside you, what sounds like violent banging, and angry yelling from both a male and a female voice.

Most people's first guess would be that the male is attacking the female. It would be mine, and I'm guessing it would be yours too.

And I am saying this. It's called a stereotype. It does exist, and it does influence society. Somehow I didn't think that such a stereotype needed independent, double-blind studies to determine its existence.

But I'll make an exception for you. (This was also in the links I gave)

Quote:

Wikipedia said:
The general consensus seems to be that male on female domestic violence is more likely to result in serious injury or death, whereas female on male (which, under the definition used by the UK Government if no others, includes preventing the father seeing the children), is more likely to result in male suicide. Men on average have more upper body strength and socialization that predisposes them to resort to violence more than women do, and that can give them a higher average lethality than women. However, women can and do use weapons to equalize whatever deficit in physical power which may be present, and can also use social constraints against men hitting women even in self-defence, to provide them with sufficient lethality to be dangerous in conflict situations. The US National Family Violence Survey has consistently indicated, in repeated surveys over more than 30 years, that women are more than twice as likely as men to initiate domestic assault, and more than twice as likely to use weapons. The oft-repeated claim that all violence by women is self-defence has similarly been proven to be based on circular reasoning. Women also are at least as well equipped to use psychological violence that forms a pattern of coercive and controlling behaviour (to use the Women's Aid definition given above). Women are also equally capable of using a proxy, which would further skew the results (since a proxy murder is not recorded as a case of domestic violence.)




Also, see the links above,

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Thirdly, males are less average, on the whole, then females. They have more clusters on either end of the intelligence spectrum.




According to whom? If you wish to express your opinion, then do so via phrases like "I believe" or "I think," rather than making definitive statements or citing statistical likelihood.

If you are presenting the results of research, verify your information & hook us up with a link, if possible. Thanks!




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_and_intelligence Bottom of every wikipedia page (or reasonable research/length) is a plethora of links.

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

And education, FYI, does not increase intelligence, only knowledge. Both decrease the likelihood of going to jail, however.




I did not say that education increased intelligence, I said that education was the variable negatively correlated to religiosity, rather than IQ. The original research had been on IQ scores & religious belief, but later research revealed that education level was the pivotal variable.

Quote:

Even as such, what would cause atheists to be more highly educated then their theist counterparts? Or mayhap it's education that increases atheism?




The theory is that education reduces the likelihood of remaining religious, rather than atheism increasing the likelihood of pursuing higher education. See the original link I posted for a brief explanation of this idea.




It is agreed that education is inversely correlated with religiosity, however, I do believe you are incorrect about the controls. However, intelligence does negatively correlate with religiosity. If you read the links, you'd find little gems like:

http://undergraduatestudies.ucdavis.edu/explorations/2004/clark.pdf

I don't believe SAT scores are quite as affected by higher education, as most are taken while still in high school.

Either way, the point still stands.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5693799 - 05/31/06 03:57 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Xanthas said:
If atheists make up about 4% of the population, then if they are just as irrational/stupid as most of humanity, they should make up about 4% of the prison population.

However, atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population. This leads us to the natural conclusion that... (anyone?)




Statistically, atheists are highly educated and have a higher per-capita income than theists.  Educated, white-collar Americans are less likely to end up in State or Federal prison.

Women are vastly underrepresented in State (7%) and Federal (5%) prisons, as well.  These numbers are astonishing when you realize that roughly 51% of the U.S. population is comprised of women.  Does this mean that we are more ethical?  :grin:




athiesm doesnt follow any defined ethics that arent of influence of religion based on theism or in some cases polytheism, which in many ethics are the same as monotheistic religions. so, pretty much they can create their own "morals" and morph their idealism to be self serving.

not only that, but many people who are religious or theistic are usually overly ambitious in ways that athiests ussually arent. this "zeal" can make a person take things farther in acute situation.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5694041 - 05/31/06 07:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Back up your statements, KidgardFromSRQ. I haven't heard you say anything substantiated in this whole thread. You just tout opinion as fact, with nothing to support it.

I've just given you one (of many, many) examples of an atheistic system of ethics. If you want to go ahead and say theism influenced it, because it was around at the time, then I could just as well say that atheism has influenced all systems of morality that the religious have, and that they're all based around something you can get more efficiently with atheism, because it's been around so long.

While it is true that atheists have a number of differing concepts of morality, so do theists.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5694042 - 05/31/06 07:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
athiesm doesnt follow any defined ethics that arent of influence of religion based on theism or in some cases polytheism, which in many ethics are the same as monotheistic religions. so, pretty much they can create their own "morals" and morph their idealism to be self serving.

not only that, but many people who are religious or theistic are usually overly ambitious in ways that athiests ussually arent. this "zeal" can make a person take things farther in acute situation.




What you don't seem to get is that the "Moral Law of God" was written by man. It is thru mans own sense of right and wrong (moral compass) that this "Law of God" was written

All morals come from man not god.

God was invented to control the masses.

You have deluded yourself into believing that your moral compass is god. When it is just your own sense of right and wrong that you are following.

Just because atheist and agnostics understand this........does not mean that they are flippant in their morals...(changing their morals to fit their mood)

The agnostics and atheist that I know personally are much more firmly grounded in their moral beliefs than the average "religious" person.

So your questions....

"What's ever come out of atheist or agnostic philosophy?

What good is philosophy if you don't put it to use? and what philosophies could you find that you could not find in believing in one god?"

Are moot.

You are looking to persecute an ideology that you don't/won't/can't understand.
This is ignorance.
People are trying to get you to see.
But you refuse.
You are trying to make these people out to be heathens because they don't follow a religion.

That....in itself, is wrong.

"Judge not lest ye be judged"


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5694268 - 05/31/06 10:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting info on the "attempting to injure" side of domestic violence against men.  I hadn't heard those statistics before.  :eek:


As to this myth, though:

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Secondly, juries generally tend to go easier on females.




I think it needs to die a peaceful death.  All of the studies I've read show an increased rate of conviction and imprisonment of women.  (Especially on assault and drug charges.)  There simply is no evidence to support the assertion that women get a "break" in the criminal justice system.  Only 22% of arrests in the U.S. are of females, and this figure has remained fairly constant over the past 15 years.  Many of these arrests result in imprisonment.

The fact is, women are not charged with criminal acts as frequently as men are.  This is why the huge disparity in prison population exists.

(BTW, your Wiki quote did not address the effect of stereotypes on juries.)

Quote:

Thirdly, males are less average, on the whole, then females. They have more clusters on either end of the intelligence spectrum.




Quote:

Hedges and Nowell (1995) performed a meta-analysis of national ability surveys that cover a 32-year period. Their primary conclusion is that male scores show greater variance (more men than women at the extremes of ability) in most abilities.

The use of representative samples gives them reassurance that these differences in variance are true, and not the result of differential selection by sex.

Their second finding is that average differences in most abilities are small. Exceptions include moderate to strong average advantages to men in math and science and typically male vocations, and moderate to strong average disadvantages to men in reading.




This study was a review of academic abilities, not all abilities, so it is inaccurate for you to say that men are less average on the whole than women.  The study also concluded that the differences in academic abilities are small.

Your guess that this small variance in average academic abilities can be extrapolated to other qualities is a BIG jump!

My guess is that the most significant factor in male aggressiveness is testosterone level.  Men with higher levels are more aggressive, men with lower levels are less aggressive.  Women generally have very low levels of testosterone, so they tend to be less physically aggressive. :shrug:


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5694293 - 05/31/06 10:13 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

I hate it when I get an infection in my plethora


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: ?? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #5695194 - 05/31/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Have you been picking fistfights with those kids who made fun of your heelys?  :lol:


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: ?? [Re: niteowl]
    #5695422 - 05/31/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
athiesm doesnt follow any defined ethics that arent of influence of religion based on theism or in some cases polytheism, which in many ethics are the same as monotheistic religions. so, pretty much they can create their own "morals" and morph their idealism to be self serving.

not only that, but many people who are religious or theistic are usually overly ambitious in ways that athiests ussually arent. this "zeal" can make a person take things farther in acute situation.




What you don't seem to get is that the "Moral Law of God" was written by man. It is thru mans own sense of right and wrong (moral compass) that this "Law of God" was written

All morals come from man not god.

God was invented to control the masses.

You have deluded yourself into believing that your moral compass is god. When it is just your own sense of right and wrong that you are following.

Just because atheist and agnostics understand this........does not mean that they are flippant in their morals...(changing their morals to fit their mood)

The agnostics and atheist that I know personally are much more firmly grounded in their moral beliefs than the average "religious" person.

So your questions....

"What's ever come out of atheist or agnostic philosophy?

What good is philosophy if you don't put it to use? and what philosophies could you find that you could not find in believing in one god?"

Are moot.

You are looking to persecute an ideology that you don't/won't/can't understand.
This is ignorance.
People are trying to get you to see.
But you refuse.
You are trying to make these people out to be heathens because they don't follow a religion.

That....in itself, is wrong.

"Judge not lest ye be judged"





explain how you think exsistence itself came to be. it can be comprehended, but there had to of been something which came from nothing. and that something which came from nothing, is god. where it all started. and to think that there is nothing above our physical realm of conciousness is ignorance. i believe that spiritual grounds are a realm of conciousness which would be considered "gods grounds".

the morals that we follow ultimatley though, all have the belief of god at base. and these morals were handed down by god to handed down from man by god. that's what you fail to see, the unlogical chance of that.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5695478 - 05/31/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

you guys are right though, i am hung up on the idea of morality. but, we can't yet prove there is a god who handed these morals down to man. so its only logical to assume that these morals were created by man. but then again, when i see stuff like a code behind the bible being found which accuratley prophecises... it has to make you wonder.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5695551 - 05/31/06 04:19 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
but then again, when i see stuff like a code behind the bible being found which accuratley prophecises... it has to make you wonder.




Just like the code behind Moby Dick that accurately makes all sorts of prophecies, which have already been fufilled? :lol:

The Bible code has been consistently refuted in this forum.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5696097 - 05/31/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Gods, this is getting off topic.

Quote:

Veritas said:
As to this myth, though:

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Secondly, juries generally tend to go easier on females.




I think it needs to die a peaceful death.  All of the studies I've read show an increased rate of conviction and imprisonment of women.  (Especially on assault and drug charges.)  There simply is no evidence to support the assertion that women get a "break" in the criminal justice system.  Only 22% of arrests in the U.S. are of females, and this figure has remained fairly constant over the past 15 years.  Many of these arrests result in imprisonment.

The fact is, women are not charged with criminal acts as frequently as men are.  This is why the huge disparity in prison population exists.




I still disagree. People have stereotypes. Juries are composed of people. Therefore, juries have stereotypes.

Imagine if I said that in the deep south, it was a myth that black people are judged more harshly, and such a myth needed to die a peaceful death. I can only imagine some people would find fault with that, and rightly so. Juries have human failings and biases. People know that women are unlikely to commit violent crimes, and consider this in their case decisions.

Quote:

Veritas said:
Quote:

Thirdly, males are less average, on the whole, then females. They have more clusters on either end of the intelligence spectrum.




Quote:

Hedges and Nowell (1995) performed a meta-analysis of national ability surveys that cover a 32-year period. Their primary conclusion is that male scores show greater variance (more men than women at the extremes of ability) in most abilities.

The use of representative samples gives them reassurance that these differences in variance are true, and not the result of differential selection by sex.

Their second finding is that average differences in most abilities are small. Exceptions include moderate to strong average advantages to men in math and science and typically male vocations, and moderate to strong average disadvantages to men in reading.




This study was a review of academic abilities, not all abilities, so it is inaccurate for you to say that men are less average on the whole than women.  The study also concluded that the differences in academic abilities are small.

Your guess that this small variance in average academic abilities can be extrapolated to other qualities is a BIG jump!

My guess is that the most significant factor in male aggressiveness is testosterone level.  Men with higher levels are more aggressive, men with lower levels are less aggressive.  Women generally have very low levels of testosterone, so they tend to be less physically aggressive. :shrug:




My apologies. I should've been more specific. I only meant to refer factually to the intelligence variance between the sexes, and my wager was that such variance exists in other areas as well.


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5696125 - 05/31/06 06:58 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Gods, this is getting off topic.




Why, yes, it is!  :grin:  (Last OT post, I promise.)

Quote:

Imagine if I said that in the deep south, it was a myth that black people are judged more harshly, and such a myth needed to die a peaceful death. I can only imagine some people would find fault with that, and rightly so. Juries have human failings and biases. People know that women are unlikely to commit violent crimes, and consider this in their case decisions.




I am not saying that stereotypes do not exist, I am saying that the numbers do not support an assertion that women are being let off the hook by juries. In fact, convictions of women have steadily increased over the last ten years.

Still, most arrests (78%) are of men, most criminal trials involve male defendants, most guilty AND not-guilty jury verdicts involve a male defendant, and therefore most of the inmates in state and federal prisons are men.

On the other hand, African-Americans are overrepresented in the prison population, and many believe that this is due to racial stereotypes. :shrug:

Quote:

My apologies. I should've been more specific. I only meant to refer factually to the intelligence variance between the sexes, and my wager was that such variance exists in other areas as well.




Could be.  :grin:


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OfflineXanthas
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Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5696202 - 05/31/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
explain how you think exsistence itself came to be. it can be comprehended, but there had to of been something which came from nothing. and that something which came from nothing, is god. where it all started.




There are two logical (depending upon your regarding of infinity as logical) possibilities. One is the uncaused cause, the other is infinite regress. I'll even point out to you where you can find loads more info yourself: http://www.google.com

I chose the uncaused cause. And I choose to believe that it stops at the universe, not any god that's never had any known contact with the universe other then its supposed “creation” of it.

I do so for a number of reasons.

First, it's simpler. It cuts out a step, an unknowable being, and a lot of heartache.

Second, “god” did a mediocre job. As just one example of many: This universe is going to die someday, and I don't like that thought. Hell, an oscillating universe would be better. Better then that would be a steady state model. Or at least cut out the second law of thermodynamics, it sucks.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
and to think that there is nothing above our physical realm of conciousness is ignorance.




To have a dead-set, rather absolutist idea of something that is unknowable strikes me as a most profound arrogance, and generally bad policy.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
the morals that we follow ultimatley though, all have the belief of god at base. and these morals were handed down by god to handed down from man by god. that's what you fail to see, the unlogical chance of that.




What you fail to see is my above post. What you also fail to see is the many philosophies that dealt with ethics with virtually no mention of god. I'll list a few of my favorites: Objectivism, Utilitarianism, and Kantism are all rather interesting.

What you also fail to see is that ethical systems fit perfectly if you consider humans within an evolutionary context as pack animals that developed higher cognitive functions, and the technology to make needless the killing of the next pack that yours may survive.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
you guys are right though, i am hung up on the idea of morality. but, we can't yet prove there is a god who handed these morals down to man. so its only logical to assume that these morals were created by man. but then again, when i see stuff like a code behind the bible being found which accuratley prophecises... it has to make you wonder.




No, it doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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OfflineXanthas
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Re: ?? [Re: Veritas]
    #5696243 - 05/31/06 07:28 PM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
I am not saying that stereotypes do not exist, I am saying that the numbers do not support an assertion that women are being let off the hook by juries. In fact, convictions of women have steadily increased over the last ten years.

Still, most arrests (78%) are of men, most criminal trials involve male defendants, most guilty AND not-guilty jury verdicts involve a male defendant, and therefore most of the inmates in state and federal prisons are men.




Quote:

Veritas said:
Women are vastly underrepresented in State (7%) and Federal (5%) prisons, as well.




22% of arrests and 7/5% of inmates? Your own words seem to be a bit off. your numbers would seem to indicate a significantly lower conviction rate.

(I never promised anything about going off topic, hehe. I have, however, almost forgotten what I'm debating about.)


--------------------
If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: Xanthas]
    #5697924 - 06/01/06 01:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Xanthas said:
Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
explain how you think exsistence itself came to be. it can be comprehended, but there had to of been something which came from nothing. and that something which came from nothing, is god. where it all started.




There are two logical (depending upon your regarding of infinity as logical) possibilities. One is the uncaused cause, the other is infinite regress. I'll even point out to you where you can find loads more info yourself: http://www.google.com

I chose the uncaused cause. And I choose to believe that it stops at the universe, not any god that's never had any known contact with the universe other then its supposed “creation” of it.

I do so for a number of reasons.

First, it's simpler. It cuts out a step, an unknowable being, and a lot of heartache.

Second, “god” did a mediocre job. As just one example of many: This universe is going to die someday, and I don't like that thought. Hell, an oscillating universe would be better. Better then that would be a steady state model. Or at least cut out the second law of thermodynamics, it sucks.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
and to think that there is nothing above our physical realm of conciousness is ignorance.




To have a dead-set, rather absolutist idea of something that is unknowable strikes me as a most profound arrogance, and generally bad policy.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
the morals that we follow ultimatley though, all have the belief of god at base. and these morals were handed down by god to handed down from man by god. that's what you fail to see, the unlogical chance of that.




What you fail to see is my above post. What you also fail to see is the many philosophies that dealt with ethics with virtually no mention of god. I'll list a few of my favorites: Objectivism, Utilitarianism, and Kantism are all rather interesting.

What you also fail to see is that ethical systems fit perfectly if you consider humans within an evolutionary context as pack animals that developed higher cognitive functions, and the technology to make needless the killing of the next pack that yours may survive.

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
you guys are right though, i am hung up on the idea of morality. but, we can't yet prove there is a god who handed these morals down to man. so its only logical to assume that these morals were created by man. but then again, when i see stuff like a code behind the bible being found which accuratley prophecises... it has to make you wonder.




No, it doesn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_code




i hear ya. and you bring up alot of good points. but what you fail to see is, all that is philosophy with out god came after belief in god(s). before there was athiesm, there was theism. wisdom begins at fear of god and ill prove it to you. ask me anything and you will see there other theists involved at one point before the belief of athiesm was there. that's what im arguing.

but what about the bible predicting end of days in it's actual text? do you dismiss that, and then there is a code behind it. see, there may be a code behind moby dick, but the belief of the bible code was/is that every letter in it is part of one code. so, until the code is cracked, i think it's impossible to have solid tangible proof of god. and i don't think moby dick follows one epic code. theres a definate pattern to the bible code, and every scholar has to admit this is a signifigant finding because with the definate codes it has prophecized things that have happened and will happen (supposedly).


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5698046 - 06/01/06 01:50 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

KidgardFromSRQ said:
i hear ya. and you bring up alot of good points. but what you fail to see is, all that is philosophy with out god came after belief in god(s). before there was athiesm, there was theism.




There you go again, putting the cart before the horse.
Before there was theism......there were agnostics.
People who recognized the existence of a "higher conscious" but could not prove it to others or define it.
Theism tried to define "God", and used fear of damnation, to gather money and power..


Quote:

but what about the bible predicting end of days in it's actual text? do you dismiss that, and then there is a code behind it. see, there may be a code behind moby dick, but the belief of the bible code was/is that every letter in it is part of one code.




If you look hard enuf, you will find these codes in every written text.
Is this the work of an unknowable "god" or simple mathematics???


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: niteowl]
    #5698103 - 06/01/06 02:05 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

lol, you know what i just realized. our points will always stand. because how can we definatley tell if there were agnostics before athiests? let me ask you something though, beyond your logic: do you really think there is nothing more to life? have you not had encounters with the paranormal to which can only be explained by the theories of spirituality which are presented. guess we both kinda put the cart before the horse when you look at things with out proof. non the less, just because i was preassuming doesnt discredit what im saying.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5698158 - 06/01/06 02:25 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Yes, I do believe in a "higher conscious".

I tend to believe that this "god" is actually the spirit of the earth.

That consciousness has many different levels.
Not just us then god.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Re: ?? [Re: niteowl]
    #5698177 - 06/01/06 02:34 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

mmm... im not sure about that one. but hey, if it works for you; i hope your right.


--------------------
Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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Invisibleniteowl
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Re: ?? [Re: KidgardFromSRQ]
    #5698183 - 06/01/06 02:40 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

There are 6-7 billion people on this planet, with 6-7 billion different views, on what god is, and what happens to you when you die.

I'm pretty sure none of us are right.

As long as we can live together in harmony.......it doesn't matter what religious views we have.


--------------------
Live for the moment you are in now
Don't be bogged down by your past
Don't be afraid of what lies in your future


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OfflineKidgardFromSRQ
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Registered: 05/30/05
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Re: ?? [Re: niteowl]
    #5698191 - 06/01/06 02:46 AM (17 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

niteowl said:
There are 6-7 billion people on this planet, with 6-7 billion different views, on what god is, and what happens to you when you die.

I'm pretty sure none of us are right.

As long as we can live together in harmony.......it doesn't matter what religious views we have.




that's true. and i think the first person who is truely wise and humble in every possible way is right. theres gotta be atleast one, and that's why I think none of us will ever know.


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Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.


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