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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
"...never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man"
prove it. that's an athiests out look on good actions. not to mention a pessemists. what about charity services. people who donate anonymously to them but don't tell other people. they feel they are doing good. and maybe in gods eyes that will make him a better person.
see, philosophies like that are negative. and negativity doesnt help anyone. and you'd have to be very selfish to believe that. sounds to me like who ever wrote that has never heard of unconditional love.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (05/30/06 01:51 AM)
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said: Ad hominem.
do you consider pulling that reasonable enough to make my point invalid? but first i should see what it is you find objectionable about me. anyhow, if that's the case. ad hominem to you!
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
Edited by KidgardFromSRQ (05/30/06 02:11 AM)
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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KidgardFromSRQ said: still, to all of you who condemn religious people as foolish or self righteous or arrogant what ever (which is true to a point), i would like to see anyone prove what i'm talking about. that's my proof of a god.
Believing that religion is bad.........doesn't mean that one doesn't believe in God.
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KidgardFromSRQ said: what's ever come out of it all? anything good? anything constructive? other than disproving that there is a god (or disproving to believe in god with certainty) with out any real evidence, what has come out of it? i mean, it teaches no values other than "there is no god, so feel free to do what ever you want", which I can't say is a good principle... what has come out of it? anything?
Do you honestly think that people who don't believe in God have no morals?
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KidgardFromSRQ said: athiesm is anti-philosophy considering its the philosophy of what i would call spiritual apathy. and agnosticism is more like the philosophy of... copping out?
You are making some VERY large assumptions my friend.
Very large indeed.
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but let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this. lets look at the solid evidence. name one philosophy of good (contributing to the world, helping others, etc) that is not influenced by religion?
There has been no good done by religions on a "global scale". Virtually every war, ever fought, was over some religious/political issue.
Organized Religion can only bring out the worst in people.
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and then look at one philosophy influenced by athiesm that has helped anyone or anything?
Some of our greatest thinkers were more "agnostic" than devoted to any "religion".
From what I have seen, people who claim they are Atheists are really Agnostic. They claim Atheism because they don't want to discuss religion with you. I have not met a true atheist, in my life. Once you get to know these people you realize they DO believe in some higher power, they are just greatly turned off by organized religion.
An agnostic does believe in a "God/Higher Conscious", we just believe that no one religion has the whole truth.
Most "religious" people are agnostic. They just follow their given religion out of fear.
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
Good question I think. My guess from self observation is, unconditional self acceptance and a relaxed body.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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notleaf
beast


Registered: 05/23/06
Posts: 30
Loc: Tennessee
Last seen: 16 years, 4 months
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Quote:
Icelander said: but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
right intention
-------------------- "Woo haw!"
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Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Quote:
niteowl said: From what I have seen, people who claim they are Atheists are really Agnostic. They claim Atheism because they don't want to discuss religion with you. I have not met a true atheist, in my life. Once you get to know these people you realize they DO believe in some higher power, they are just greatly turned off by organized religion.
An agnostic does believe in a "God/Higher Conscious", we just believe that no one religion has the whole truth.
Most "religious" people are agnostic. They just follow their given religion out of fear.
You've met one now. I believe in no higher power(s), and will deny any more mainstream (Christian, Jewish, Muslim, Hindu, etc.) god. I really can't touch the deist god(s), though (unless the claim is made that the deist god is perfect).
(Will post something with more relevance in a number of hours, gotta leave now.)
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said:
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Veritas said: Atheism and agnosticism are not philosophies, per se, but differing stances on the religious assertion that God exists.
There are, however, many different philosophies which do not include a supernatural being. Religion is one way to structure your life, one way to determine the "right" course, but it is far from the only way.
athiesm is anti-philosophy considering its the philosophy of what i would call spiritual apathy. and agnosticism is more like the philosophy of... copping out?
Again, atheism and agnosticism are not philosophies, in the sense that they do not seek to address any quesions beyond "does God exist?" Atheism says "no, God does not exist." Agnosticism says "it is unknown or unknowable whether God exists."
Philosophy addresses many other questions beyond the existence of a supernatural being. "Doing whatever you want" is not addressed by theism, atheism or agnosticism. For questions regarding the rightness/wrongness of behaviors, we can turn to ethical philosophy. One system of ethics is called "Supernaturalism," and defines what is ethical as that which God endorses. All other ethical philosophies do not include the opinion of a deity when defining ethical behavior.
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but let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this. lets look at the solid evidence. name one philosophy of good (contributing to the world, helping others, etc) that is not influenced by religion? and then look at one philosophy influenced by athiesm that has helped anyone or anything?
Belief in God does not create compassion, any more than disbelief in God eliminates compassion. Someone who is interested in contributing, helping, teaching, guiding, may be influenced by religion. They also may be an Epicurean Hedonist, pursuing that which feels good to them. They might also be a Secular Humanist, as one of their tenets is:
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Building a better world - A conviction that with reason, an open marketplace of ideas, good will, and tolerance, progress can be made in building a better world for ourselves and our children.
Just as mature adults do not need constant supervision by a parent to prevent them from "misbehaving," we do not need supervision by a supernatural being in order to be ethical, compassionate, concerned and benevolent.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
David_Scape said: I don't want to hijack the thread, but which book of his represents him the strongest? I want to get one, but I will probably not read all of his books, so make sure it is all Sade.
Philosophy In The Bedroom.
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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We don't need a supernatural being, yes, but without this supernatural being, the question is: why act differently from animals? We are animals, so why pretend we are not?
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Animals cooperate and care for others of their kind, some even adopt orphans of other species.
Humans are capable of considering how they wish to use their life. We can pursue entertainment, power, wisdom, fame, fortune, pleasure, and positive contribution. No need for Big Daddy looming over our shoulders to ensure that we will be "good," we can choose for ourselves.
Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
Veritas said: Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.
Blasphemer!
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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philosophy
1. the rational investigation of questions about existence and knowledge and ethics
2. any personal belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation; "self-indulgence was his only philosophy"; "my father's philosophy of child-rearing was to let mother do it"
athiesm is the belief that there is not a god.
agnostocism is the belief taht there is no way to prove god.
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Do you honestly think that people who don't believe in God have no morals?
where do you think those morals came from? it certainly wasnt other athiests which influenced there good moral structure. was it? but answer me this, out of the philosophy of athiesm: what good has come out of it? I can't think of any, but I garauntee you if you do, you will find that they are all influenced by morale. and that morale is the base of theistic religions which was not influenced by athiesm. the morale supposedly is "god's will for man." moral was set into man kind by religion. (on a side note, in western civilizations are morale is very backwards. but i think that will change sooner or later) now I'm not making any definate claims, but if you can answer that question for me, that'd be great.
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Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.
that's the definition of morale pretty much. i'm saying, why do we have morals? to avoid punishment, yes. but punishment from what? other people? well, why do other people have morals? and once again, how were the morals set in? is morale bad?
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There has been no good done by religions on a "global scale". Virtually every war, ever fought, was over some religious/political issue.
Organized Religion can only bring out the worst in people.
and that could not be more wrong. you see, there are good people who follow religion. what you fail to realize is the better in people. the people who start wars are doing exactly what most religions want them to not do. you can make alot more change with one year of dialectic debate than 100 years of war. the way I see it, war is like smacking your kid when he won't stop doing something. and that does work, sometimes. i.e. germany ww2. but if you really wanna get peace to stay, you gotta use words.
and to directly answer your statement, other than peace corp, independent charity services(churches and others) i can't think of any athiest affiliated services going out to help people in somalia who are starving... and if there are, that would be of good moral. and once again, where did that moral come from?
that aside, who created peace corps? and what was the country founded on?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: What's ever come out of athiest or agnostic philosophy?
Yes, it is impossible to validate or substantiate in any consensual manner the existance of a God, as the only evidence that could demonstrate God's existance is solely within the realm of personal experience, which is subject to the imagination and misunderstanding.
Thus, someone who, for whatever reason, decides to believe in the existance of a God has absolutely nothing to use to show individuals who have not created a belief in God for themself that they are "wrong", so it simply becomes a matter of personally attacking athiests and agnostics, exclaiming "What's ever to come from their philosophies, and why couldn't anything that might come from their philosophies not come out from a belief in God?". 
What is ever going to come from creating threads posing such pointless questions? 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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niteowl
GrandPaw


Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
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You are assuming that morals only come from "God"
God and religion were invented by man. All religious dogma was invented by man. So all morals come from man..........not God
People who live in a society do good for the betterment of their society Not for some reward, after they die, from some unknowable "God"
-------------------- Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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OK, if we go with the second definition of philosophy:
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any personal belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation.
How exactly is the belief that God does not exist, or that the existence of God is unknowable, a belief about how to live or how to deal with a situation? What is the situation? That some people claim God exists?
Once you have decided that your "best guess" is that God does not exist, you still have any number of options for beliefs about how to live. I have met far more rational, ethical, honest atheists and agnostics than I have tolerant, respectful, intelligent theists.
What does that tell us about belief in God? Not much. Perhaps the theists I have met were an unusually stupid, bigoted, short-sighted, rude selection of believers. Perhaps the atheists I have met were unusually ethical and honest. I truly don't think that their belief or disbelief in a supernatural being had much to do with it.
You may wish to review Buddhism as an excellent example of an "atheist" philosophy which contains clear moral/ethical guidelines.
Stating that all ethical/moral principles were created by God presupposes that God, in fact, exists. It far simpler to state that humans have developed ethical rules to enable us to live with one another peacefully. See? No supernatural beings required, Bible sold separately.
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Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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I'm going to quote one example of an atheistic ethical code. I'm directly quoting something I wrote, because I came up with it in the absence of religion. My family was/is only weakly religious, and I knew it was all BS from roughly age 8 onwards.
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Xanthas said: Definitions: d1. An object or concept is objective if it is true/existent for all observers. d2. An object or concept is subjective if it is not objective. d3. Existence is characterized by interaction. Anything that has an effect on another existing body exists. d4. Free will is freedom of self determination and action independent of external causes
Postulates: p1. I am a thinking being. The ultimate nature of my own mind is irrelevant to this fact. (Cogito ergo sum.) p2. I am able to perceive reality. (Not necessarily the entirety of reality, but my observations are valid, if possibly incomplete.) p3. The universe is able to be understood by human intelligences.
Conclusions: c1. Humanity exists (p2) c2. Humans have many differing concepts of morality (p2) c3. Morality is subjective (c2, d1, d2) c4. Like circumstances produce like results (p2, p3) c5. The concept of free will is meaningless (d4, c4)
Theory of Ethics
In the absence of any objective morality, the interests of intelligent beings is the highest goal for said beings. It is within the interests of intelligent beings to promote the happiness (utility) of themselves.
Thus, actions which increase the utility of said intelligences are the highest goals.
The utility of a society is protected by certain rules. Such rules are called ?natural rights.? The concept of natural rights are significantly more conducive to utility then the violation of natural rights for the sake of increased utility. One would require generally unrealistic benefits from such a violation in order that said violation could be justified.
As for some other benefits of atheism (this does not say correlation/causation, but it brings up a VERY interesting point)
http://tinyurl.com/prhtk (google search, didn't want this thread to force side-scrolling) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religiosity_and_intelligence http://atheistempire.com/reference/stats/main.html http://www.adherents.com/misc/adh_prison2.html
Atheists are dramatically underrepresented in prisons. They're also dramatically overrepresented among the most educated/intelligent people in the world. There's gotta be something to it, one way or the other.
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
Edited by Xanthas (05/30/06 05:15 PM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Quote:
Veritas said: Actually, in terms of the psychological development of morals, a moral code based solely upon avoidance of punishment or anticipation of reward is immature.
Religious morality is not all about punishment and fear. It's about the premise that humans are not mere animals but have spirit, which works on compleatly different principles from animal flesh.
If there is no spirit, then we are flesh, and flesh acts as flesh feels like acting. And human flesh has all kinds of feelings like urges to kill, to rape, to steal etc. I've felt all of these urges. Yet, the reason I never considered any of it is because I believe my life has a purpuse higher than that which I give it myself, not because I fear punishment. Because I believe love is the driving force of my being, not survival. And love does not exist as anything but a natural tool for survival within limits of atheism.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
Atheists are dramatically underrepresented in prisons. There's gotta be something to it, one way or the other.
Quote:
According to a February 1995 Gallup poll, 96 percent of all Americans believe in God, and 88 percent affirm the importance of religion. However, the degree of religiosity within this group varies considerably. Only 35 percent can be classified as "religious," using a definition that requires them to consider religion important and attend religious services at least once a week.
Atheists are just a smaller percentage of the population, and therefore a small percentage of the sub-set of prison inmates.
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Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody

Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 16 years, 8 months
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Atheists are dramatically underrepresented in prisons. There's gotta be something to it, one way or the other.
Quote:
According to a February 1995 Gallup poll, 96 percent of all Americans believe in God, and 88 percent affirm the importance of religion. However, the degree of religiosity within this group varies considerably. Only 35 percent can be classified as "religious," using a definition that requires them to consider religion important and attend religious services at least once a week.
Atheists are just a smaller percentage of the population, and therefore a small percentage of the sub-set of prison inmates.
Incorrect.
If atheists make up about 4% of the population, then if they are just as irrational/stupid as most of humanity, they should make up about 4% of the prison population.
However, atheists make up less then 1% of the prison population. This leads us to the natural conclusion that... (anyone?)
-------------------- If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
Edited by Xanthas (05/30/06 05:18 PM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


Registered: 02/01/05
Posts: 4,033
Loc: mountains and lakes
Last seen: 17 years, 3 months
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Atheists are clever enough to stay out of prisons. They are usually intelligent, as far as I can see. Intelligent enough to release themselfs from dogmas, but not intelligent enough to know that logic is futile without fuel (premises)
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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