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David_Scape
Anti Genius


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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"Being a Humanist means trying to behave decently without expectation of rewards or punishment after you are dead." - Kurt Vonnegut
Kurt Vonnegut is a radical atheist, and a secular humanist.
Uh, Kidguard, If I state any particular grassroots organization that doesn't have religion at the center of it, are you going to say that it's still influenced by religion? Because, wherever there are large groups of humans, there are going to be religious people. If you take it in this sense, all groups except Secular Humanism are going to be influenced by some sort of Religion. Which doesn't cut the beans. Humans do good because they like to do good. Adding relgion into the mix seems important in that spirituality is a variable in every person, but ultimately, it's redundant.
Philosophy is not the most productive of endevors. Talking about essence, or debating the existence of matter isn't going to save starving children in Somalia. Sometimes a philosophical meme can create a civilization, and yes, those often have some sort of religion at the center of it.
And I don't know exactly what you are trying to prove here, but "Doing Good Things" because of a philosophy, doesn't necessarily give it merit, nor does it necessarily make it true. Truth is what counts in philosophy. You're looking at it the wrong way.
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Also, just for the heck of it, here's Isaac Asimov. Another Humanist I believe.
"I am an atheist, out and out. It took me a long time to say it. I've been an atheist for years and years, but somehow I felt it was intellectually unrespectable to say one was an atheist, because it assumed knowledge that one didn't have. Somehow, it was better to say one was a humanist or an agnostic. I finally decided that I'm a creature of emotion as well as of reason. Emotionally, I am an atheist. I don't have the evidence to prove that God doesn't exist, but I so strongly suspect he doesn't that I don't want to waste my time." - Isaac Asimov
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Humanism, LOL.
“Benevolence is surely rather pride’s vice than an authentic virtue in the soul; never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man; one would be most annoyed were the alms one has just bestowed not to receive the utmost possible publicity. Nor, Eugenie, are you to imagine that, as is the popular view, this action has only excellent consequences; for my part I behold it as nothing other than the greatest of all duperies; it accustoms the poor man to doles which provoke the deteoration of his energy; when able to expect your charities, he ceases to work and becomes, when they fail him, a thief or assassin. On all sides I hear them ask after the means to suppress mendacity, and meanwhile they do everything possible to encourage it. Would you have no flies in your bedchamber? Don’t spread about sugar to attract them into it. You wish to have no poor in France? Distribute no alms, and above all shut down your poorhouses. The individual born in misfortune thereupon seeing himself deprived of these dangerous crutches, will fend for himself, summoning up all the resources put in him by Nature, to extricate himself from the condition wherein he started life; and he will importune you no longer. Destroy, with entire unpity, raze to the ground, those detestable houses where you billet the progeny of the libertinage of the poor, appaling cloacas, wherefrom everyday spews forth into society a swarm of new-made creatures whose unique hope resides in your purse. What purpose, I ask, is there in preserving such individuals with so much care?” --Marquis de Sade
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:
Icelander said: I'm agnostic and it sets me free to follow my own path. Since I don't know I just follow my intuition, make my best guess and that's very satisfying.
i guess that's a good thing in many senses. but what comes out of that other than something for yourself? can that not be achieved in believing in a god anyways?
Are you talking about beliving in religion (god) Mostly evil has come out of that.
If I am at peace with my beliefs I'm a much nicer more relaxed guy. That really helps the world, don't you think?
well, nothing evil has come out of believing in god. it's really just overly ambitious people who taint things that fuck shit up. not god. people like catholics exploit god. thinking they can prey to some statue and confess and they're forgiven. that disguists me to be honest.
but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
Fear.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Quote:
well, nothing evil has come out of believing in god.
Depends what kind of God you believe in.
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capliberty
Stranger


Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 14 years, 5 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
Fear.
I say that urning from a drive thats rooted by curiosity, Curiosity to see an obtain power, to obtain peace of mind. To always be happy, to have sex with the best women, but sadly curiosity can lead to ones own demise.
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
Fear.
what do i fear in helping others? where does that moral come from? fear that the other may die? perhaps, but why would i worry about that. that wouldn't effect me now would it? what has influenced us to form idealism like that? fear of going to hell or some otherworldy punishment id say. that and compassion, but why would we feel compassion for such person if we didnt have morale?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: let's keep this simple, and not try to prove me wrong on this.

A common sentiment among theists.
that's not among theists, thats among strong advocaters. ignorance is a common sentiment among athiests.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
Fear.
what do i fear in helping others? where does that moral come from? fear that the other may die? perhaps, but why would i worry about that. that wouldn't effect me now would it? what has influenced us to form idealism like that? fear of going to hell or some otherworldy punishment id say. that and compassion, but why would we feel compassion for such person if we didnt have morale?
Fear that if you didn't help others you would not be a wholesome person, or that you would not be viewed as such by society (this especially). Fear that if you don't help others they won't help you.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: ignorance is a common sentiment among athiests.
Ignorance of what?
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said:
Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: but, what do you think is the roots of our good(good meaning non destructive or indolence related) moral influence?
Fear.
what do i fear in helping others? where does that moral come from? fear that the other may die? perhaps, but why would i worry about that. that wouldn't effect me now would it? what has influenced us to form idealism like that? fear of going to hell or some otherworldy punishment id say. that and compassion, but why would we feel compassion for such person if we didnt have morale?
Fear that if you didn't help others you would not be a wholesome person, or that you would not be viewed as such by society (this especially). Fear that if you don't help others they won't help you.
so your saying that no one helps anyone if there isnt a selfish reason? anyways, you can be wholesome if your fair. and fair just means balanced. is it balanced to go out of your way to try and help some one if you don't have a motive concerning self image?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: ignorance is a common sentiment among athiests.
Ignorance of what?
read what i said...
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: so your saying that no one helps anyone if there isnt a selfish reason?
Yeah.
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said:
Quote:
KidgardFromSRQ said: so your saying that no one helps anyone if there isnt a selfish reason?
Yeah.
that's true for people like you, obviously.
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Ad hominem.
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said: Humanism, LOL.
“Benevolence is surely rather pride’s vice than an authentic virtue in the soul; never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man; one would be most annoyed were the alms one has just bestowed not to receive the utmost possible publicity. Nor, Eugenie, are you to imagine that, as is the popular view, this action has only excellent consequences; for my part I behold it as nothing other than the greatest of all duperies; it accustoms the poor man to doles which provoke the deteoration of his energy; when able to expect your charities, he ceases to work and becomes, when they fail him, a thief or assassin. On all sides I hear them ask after the means to suppress mendacity, and meanwhile they do everything possible to encourage it. Would you have no flies in your bedchamber? Don’t spread about sugar to attract them into it. You wish to have no poor in France? Distribute no alms, and above all shut down your poorhouses. The individual born in misfortune thereupon seeing himself deprived of these dangerous crutches, will fend for himself, summoning up all the resources put in him by Nature, to extricate himself from the condition wherein he started life; and he will importune you no longer. Destroy, with entire unpity, raze to the ground, those detestable houses where you billet the progeny of the libertinage of the poor, appaling cloacas, wherefrom everyday spews forth into society a swarm of new-made creatures whose unique hope resides in your purse. What purpose, I ask, is there in preserving such individuals with so much care?” --Marquis de Sade
Wow. I remember De sade. Heavy stuff. I actually planned on buying one of his books, but then I thought better of it... decided not to. I don't remember what exactly stopped me, but I think reading about male buggery kinda scared me off. Have you read one of his books, Itsstarsaddam?
Quote:
Humanism, LOL.
What's your beef with humanism? I'm not a humanist, but I can't say I read anything relevant to it in your quote of De sade.
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it stars saddam
Satan

Registered: 05/19/05
Posts: 15,571
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Quote:
David_Scape said: Have you read one of his books, Itsstarsaddam?
All of them.
Quote:
I'm not a humanist, but I can't say I read anything relevant to it in your quote of De sade.
"...never is it with the single intention of performing a good act, but instead ostentatiously that one aids one’s fellow man"
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KidgardFromSRQ
Strange

Registered: 05/30/05
Posts: 1,501
Last seen: 9 years, 11 months
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Quote:
itstarssaddam said: Ad hominem.
cunning. but in a sense, you are right. we all are selfish in that sense of fear. but what's wisdom with out fear? what do you fear?
-------------------- Be nice to people in general. Even if you don't like them.
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David_Scape
Anti Genius


Registered: 08/05/02
Posts: 878
Loc: U.S. of muthafuckin A.
Last seen: 14 years, 7 months
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I don't want to hijack the thread, but which book of his represents him the strongest? I want to get one, but I will probably not read all of his books, so make sure it is all Sade.
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