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Lachrymologist Registered: 12/17/04 Posts: 199 Loc: Europe Last seen: 15 years, 4 months |
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Well I stumbled on this while reading something on the shroomery (think it was a post from MarkostheGnostic), and am just really curious about it. So any in depth info would be greatly appreciated (I tried googling, but with no much luck, maybe cuz I'm really clumsy when it comes to using google
)Peace
-------------------- "If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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http://www.amazon.com/gp/product
If I can answer a question, feel free to PM me. -MtG -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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The Jesus Prayer--the continuous repetition of "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"
Jesus denounces vain repetition in prayers: Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. This is the anti-Jesus prayer since it goes against what Jesus taught
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Lachrymologist Registered: 12/17/04 Posts: 199 Loc: Europe Last seen: 15 years, 4 months |
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If I got this right, The Jesus prayer is about entering kind of a constant meditative state, continuosly beeing aware of it?
I don't understand nor see how is that "vain repetition"? it doesn't seem to be just meaningless repetition of given words. -------------------- "If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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Well, it is a prayer, and it is constantly repeated, sure sounds like vain repetition to me.
I do not see in scripture that a meditative state is called for. If you want to meditate on something why not carefully read the scriptures, this is the milk and meat of the soul.
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Lachrymologist Registered: 12/17/04 Posts: 199 Loc: Europe Last seen: 15 years, 4 months |
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if you keep repeating to yourself that two plus two equals four, so you would remember that bit of knowledge how is it vain repetition? It has a purpose, thus it's not vain.
Scriptures are rather interesting, and I read from time to time. As for it beeing "the milk and meat of the soul", I would disagree. -------------------- "If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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I RULE YOU! Registered: 10/11/04 Posts: 400 |
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It's Christianity, take it for what it's worth. I could probably track down tons of examples of how meditation was used in the old/new testement....
The bible is so wishy-washy, and so many people belive "word for word" what it contains...I could support a rampant sexual forray if I took the time to do some biblical research. It's all about taking stuff OUT of context and only showing the supporting parts. . .
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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the issue of repetition is interesting.
I repeated Yahweh while going to sleep and a woman yelled at me "shut up" (in my mind, hallucinatory) I considered continuing out of spite but wondered if perhaps it was a message from God....... or from someone distracting me from God? All I know is sure you can pray just once..... and you're still right back where you came from. But to be in a meditative state while praying so you can COMMUNE with God.... that is the best way to pray. and so it seems that one way to have acess to such states would be through repetition. I mean I've sured prayed Jesus save me, transform me into your consciousness now and then.... but it hasn't really happened, or if so, imperceivably gradual [well not so, i mean i have noticed some changes but they are also from using Buddhist mantras too].. but what if you carried that prayer into a deep meditation, keeping it constantly in your mind, so that you could connect to Jesus? Is that vain repetition? It may be. But the pressing question is... how does one pray in order to reap results and connect to that which they are praying to? The Bible is full of passages denoting going within to find the Kingdom...... especially the Gospel of Thomas.... curious things. my observation from that night is that Yahweh resonates from the solar plexus to the throat down to the heart and provides a sense of balance and flows fluidly if resonated aloud. I am not sure that that is what you are supposed to do with the name but I also know that if Yahweh is up there he understands and would teach me the proper way. I'm trying I just don't know what I'm trying... so whatever I'm trying is going to have to be patient while I am trying to access it. or who knows anything. just be a good person in the mean time. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (05/29/06 05:18 PM)
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Lachrymologist Registered: 12/17/04 Posts: 199 Loc: Europe Last seen: 15 years, 4 months |
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Quote:
-------------------- "If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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Only Human Registered: 02/22/05 Posts: 161 Loc: Where is here? Last seen: 16 years, 11 months |
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To me, it is calling aloud with your spirit, not in words persay, but with understanding, and feeling. If you are like me, you have been given the experience of knowing Gods eternal spirit.
I may say, "Father, Creator, please heal all the Children of this world from suffering and bless them with the awareness of your love and your grace. Forgive us of our wrongful trangressions, show us your divine light and reveal all our wickedness. I ask these things now, publicly displayed, that you may help anyone who reads these words to open their heart, mind and soul to you, and answer your call with all the strengh you have given them. I know that you are my soveriegn Lord, and that you sent your Son, most beloved of all your creations, here to this world, to tell us about you. "
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exshroomerite Registered: 07/04/04 Posts: 4,126 Loc: In the woods |
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Fivepointer
You are wrong about everything. You worship a book instead of the living God. You are an idolater, and a heretic. Your ego is blocking your vision and you have renounced your faculty of reason. You should try the Jesus prayer. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. Do not mindlessly repeat the words in an attempt to achieve a meditative state. Say each word and contemplate its meaning. Each time you repeat the prayer change the tempo. Each time you repeat the prayer emphasize a different word. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. Lord Jesus Christ, son of the living God, have mercy on me a sinner. Note words that are missing from the prayer: Please, worthless, humble... contemplate why those words are not included. This prayer has infinite depth for those who pray it.
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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"Vain repetition," like the Pharasees who liked to act holy, is about making a show of prayer - repetition for others to hear how 'holy' one is. It is the opposite of going into one's "closet" and praying under the Eternal Eye of God. "Vain repetition" is NOT what the Jesus Prayer, or Prayer of the Heart is about. Only a very very shallow understanding of the scriptures would result in making such a pronouncement. The Jesus prayer is obviously anything but vain. Although the last words "...a sinner" are not always enjoined, they serve to remind the praying person of his/her incompleteness outside of God. Sin separates the human from God, it is NOT about the instilling of pathological guilt for "Original Sin." It is a choice to believe in this doctrine (as promulgated by St. Augustine) or not. Jews do not believe in it and neither did Jesus - the doctrine did not exist then.
The Jesus Prayer belongs to a 1000 year Eastern Orthodox tradition that is kept alive by cave-dwelling monks on the Greek island of Mt. Athos. The postures and breathing techniques are considered to be a more preparatory stage than the actual prayer, much like the 'sitting samadhis' of Yoga (e.g., savikalpa, nirvikalpa) are preparatory to the 'natural samadhi' or Sahaj - which exists throughout all activities and even in sleep. Reading The Way of a Pilgrim by an anonymous seeker in 19th century Russia describes some of the benefits the prayer can impart. It is said to be based on Paul's words in Thessalonians 5:17 to "Pray without ceasing." Many immature, non-comprehending evangelical or 'Bible-based' Christians seem to think that Biblical 'meditation' means 'thinking' about meanings of written scriptures. The highest form of prayer - contemplative prayer - is beyond their level of spiritual development. Contemplation, as is commonly known, results in transrational (non-discursive) and transpersonal (or transcendental) states of consciousness: holy spiritual states (holy spirit, to be archaic). The Gnostics were brilliant in their understanding of Hylics (materialists), and Psychic vs. Pneumatic Christians. Being suffused by God's "Uncreated Energy" (Orthodox Christian theology) IS an experience of Christian Gnosis. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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You are wrong about everything. You worship a book instead of the living God. You are an idolater, and a heretic. Your ego is blocking your vision and you have renounced your faculty of reason.
I want you to cafefully ponder these verses. Every Christian knows that the Bible is not a mere book, it is The Word of God. Pr 30:5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him. Mr 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye. Lu 4:4 And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God. Lu 8:21 And he answered and said unto them, My mother and my brethren are these which hear the word of God, and do it. Lu 11:28 But he said, Yea rather, blessed are they that hear the word of God, and keep it. Ac 4:31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness. Ac 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. Ac 11:1 And the apostles and brethren that were in Judaea heard that the Gentiles had also received the word of God. Ac 13:5 And when they were at Salamis, they preached the word of God in the synagogues of the Jews: and they had also John to their minister. Ac 13:46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold, and said, It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo, we turn to the Gentiles. Ac 17:11-12 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so. Therefore many of them believed; also of honourable women which were Greeks, and of men, not a few. Ac 18:11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them. Ac 19:20 So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed. Ro 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. 2Co 2:17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ. 2Co 4:2 But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God. Eph 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Col 1:25 Whereof I am made a minister, according to the dispensation of God which is given to me for you, to fulfil the word of God; 1Th 2:13 For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe. Heb 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. Heb 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear. 1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. 2Pe 1:21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost. 1Jo 2:14 I have written unto you, fathers, because ye have known him that is from the beginning. I have written unto you, young men, because ye are strong, and the word of God abideth in you, and ye have overcome the wicked one. Re 1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Re 1:9 I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. Re 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: Re 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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the problem is there are many words of God.
Do you view the Gnostic Gospels as the word of God too? If not, why? The issue is not about God, it is about the men who compiled these books together and whether or not the words are REALLY the word of God. You cannot take the assertion that they are true as proof that they are. What else do you have ? Do you have the holy spirit? Have you been reached to in such a way that leads you to KNOW the Bible is accurate.... or do you simply have hope and faith? The Bible is a tool and it is a useful tool, sure..... but the word of God is not GOD ... it's just his word. The essence of God is more important than simple study. Transformation through the "Holy Spirit", union with the Father, marriage with the Son... all these transformations are more important than dogma ever could be... and in fact dogma can blind you to the true path. To true connection. So I ask you, what evidence have you that this is the word of God? If your only evidence is that it says so, then you need to look deeper. Have you FOUND God? Have you CONNECTED? Have you been transformed? Do you have deep personal evidence..... or are you just supporting a book out of habit? It would take much digging and I would only do it if you expressed interest but I have seen it pointed out by his disciples in scripture that the doctrine they teach is for fools.... that it is rather absurd that they HAVE to believe it in order to be saved. I am not sure exactly what is implied and perhaps you would understand it if I referenced the quote to you.... but reading a book and FINDING THE HOLY SPIRIT are two very different things. The Holy Spirit, whatever it is and however you find it..... is immune from corruption.... but the word of God is absolutely prone to being corrupted and misread. Does it still work? As a tool? Can you open it and find exactly what you need, through guidance of a divine force? Perhaps. But is this and this alone, really, truely, 100% the ONLY word of God? Are all other words of God invalid if they come from different books, different prophets, teachers, holy men...... ? Believe what you will, having spiritual peace is a noble thing and you should not stop looking until you find it. But what exactly DO you believe? You sound dogmatic to me. If I said that I were filled with Christ and he was writing this through me.... which is not true at all. But if I SAID that....... does that make it worth believing in? What if I created a huge book full of dogmas and said that.... but it wasn't true? The Gospel of Thomas was one of the earliest accounts of Christ wasn't it? Why did the church suppress it then? Why did they suppress the gnostic gospels? Why did they do so many evil things with the Bible as their source of authority? There are many questions... do not deny yourself the capacity to think criticially. If Christianity is right then it is right, and you will still be a Christian with a deeper understanding.... but don't stagnate yourself dude. I want everyone to find God...... I want to find God. But you need something more than "I said so, so therefore it's true." you definitely need more than that! if it works for you though, fantastic. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (05/30/06 05:39 PM)
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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You cannot take the assertion that they are true as proof that they are. What else do you have ? Do you have the holy spirit? Have you been reached to in such a way that leads you to KNOW the Bible is accurate.... or do you simply have hope and faith?
Every true convert MUST have the Holy Spirit otherwise they are not a Christian (Ro 8:9, 1Co 2:14). And yes the Spirit does confirm with my spirit that the Bible is the infallible Word of God and I am His child, I know this to be a fact. So I ask you, what evidence have you that this is the word of God? If your only evidence is that it says so, then you need to look deeper. Have you FOUND God? Have you CONNECTED? Have you been transformed? Do you have deep personal evidence..... or are you just supporting a book out of habit? Every convert is convicted of sin by the Spirit, made a new creation, sin no longer has dominion on the new creation, and the truth is revealed by the Spirit. Nothing is done out of habit, but in the power of the gospel as illuminated by the Spirit. It would take much digging and I would only do it if you expressed interest but I have seen it pointed out by his disciples in scripture that the doctrine they teach is for fools.... that it is rather absurd that they HAVE to believe it in order to be saved. Every one is inherits eternal life BELIEVES THE GOSPEL! Salvation is not conditioned anything a sinner does, not on being good, not on repenting, not even on holding a set of doctrine, nothing. However the immediate result of conversion is a belief of the truth, repentance, and sin having been broken. In order for someone to be saved Jesus must have atoned for that sinners sins, this is the sole ground of salvation, nothing else. I am not sure exactly what is implied and perhaps you would understand it if I referenced the quote to you.... but reading a book and FINDING THE HOLY SPIRIT are two very different things. The Holy Spirit, whatever it is and however you find it..... is immune from corruption.... but the word of God is absolutely prone to being corrupted and misread. You don't find the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit finds you, and leads all His chosen into THE TRUTH, which is found in the Word, and applies it to the soul and mind. God makes sure all His children are taught by Him.(Joh 6:45) What if I created a huge book full of dogmas and said that.... but it wasn't true? The Gospel of Thomas was one of the earliest accounts of Christ wasn't it? Why did the church suppress it then? Why did they suppress the gnostic gospels? The non-canonical book of Thomas is clearly not part of scripture, and God's providence did not preserve it. God controls all events, especially the preservation of His Word. Why did they do so many evil things with the Bible as their source of authority? Because they were not Christians. I want everyone to find God...... I want to find God. But you need something more than "I said so, so therefore it's true." you definitely need more than that! Your right. The gospel must be brought home by the power of God and applied by the Holy Spirit, I can not convince anyone of the mystery of the gospel. That being said, man is still commanded to believe the testimony of scripture, just as they are commanded never to sin, both things are impossible for fallen man to carry out. This is why the entire process of salvation is solely of grace and not on merit in any way. I hope that you might be brought low and shown what your righteousness is, and what God's righteousness is. The gospel reveals the righteousness of God. Romans 1:16, 7 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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So what happens if someone is lead away from that Gospel into another religious path, but feels just as liberated and saved as you do now? You say we do not find it, but that it finds us. That makes free will irrelevant to me.... what if someone is exposed to the Gospel, finds it ludicrous, and finds deep inner peace through Taoism instead? Did the Holy Spirit lead him that way, to Taoism? Why didn't it lead him to the Gospel since he's encountered it in his lifetime, since you say it is not up to us?
You are using scripture to prove scripture again. That is good that you say you have the spirit and that it has bolstered your faith, though. But frankly I cannot see divinity working in such a constrictive way, with only one path. Most all of them claim their superiority at the cost of other religions being wrong. Therefore any religion you choose can lead to the same convictions that you hold now, but with a different flavor. Not any I suppose, but many. How do you know the Jews aren't right, that Christ was not the messiah, for example? Or that the Muslims are right, that Christ was just a prophet and there are many more prophets out there. There is almost assuredly a way to salvation through Christianity, and it is heavily rooted in scripture. I do not frankly see it as the only way. The way is the only way, and Christianity is a path to the way. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (05/30/06 07:49 PM)
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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leery11, it is good to remain 'leery,' wary, suspicious as you have. Your interaction with fivepointer will expose you to a particular and all-too-commonly encountered 'form' of Christian belief. Fortunately it is only one form. Unfortunately, it dominates the 'Bible Belt' of the USA which parallels other forms of intolerance (e.g., religious and its concommitant ethnic forms).
Fortunately for the discerning mind, one can adhere to the teachings of the canonical Bible without believing erroneously that Jews (for example) are damned unless they confess Jesus Christ to be the Messiah. It is a mind rife with Obsessive-Compulsive, and/or Paranoid Personality organizations (or disorders, depending upon the degree) that attracts an absolutist religious stance. Muslim fundamentalists experience their scriptures the same way - it is a syndrome that underlies the personality of any religious bibliolator. Both groups insist that only their perspective is acceptable by God, and they presume to say what is acceptable to God based on the singular, pivotal assertion that the canonical Bible, (or the Holy Qur'an) is the 'infallible word of God.' Both sides are equally convinced, which is the nature of their respective religious experience. Unfortunately, paranoid ideation is of the nature of a meglomania which tries to impose the individual's conviction (based on their experience) on everyone else, without any respect for anyone else's view. It is Orwellian "double-think" to claim that such an individual is acting out of 'love,' when in fact there is a rabidly manipulative element that masquerades as do-gooding. The so-called Holy Inquisition burned human beings alive but expressed justification because it was 'saving their souls!' This is absurd as well as evil to the core. The Enlightened Christian discerns Truth (synonymously, Christ) in the traditions of other faiths. Such a Christian might secretly nurture the belief that his religion is best, but remains tolerant of others' faiths. The pathological individual, under the guise of 'infallible' Biblical writ (or Qur'anic writ) cultivates intolerance, hostility, prejudice and even murder. Fundamentalists even disdain other denominations within their respective world religion, and they are well known for the OCD trait of hair-splitting, as though doctrinal differences really effected the ultimate spiritual nature of a human being instead of translation of intellectual doctrine into a total Way of Being. Leery11...remain leery. Peace. -MtG -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Lachrymologist Registered: 12/17/04 Posts: 199 Loc: Europe Last seen: 15 years, 4 months |
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"I hope that you might be brought low and shown what your righteousness is, and what God's righteousness is. The gospel reveals the righteousness of God."
What is righteousness of God according to the gospel? (iyho) -------------------- "If there were no desire to heal, the damaged and broken met along this tedious path I've choosen here, I certainly would have walked away by now" Tool - Patient "It is only with the heart that one can see rightly; what is essential is invisible to the eye." Antoine de Saint-Exupery
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exshroomerite Registered: 07/04/04 Posts: 4,126 Loc: In the woods |
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You can quote scripture till your fingers fall off. I believe in the truth of scripture. You, however, have failed to understand that "the word of God" has a broader meaning than those words which are written in the book. When you limit the word of God to those words written in the book (Bible is from the Greek biblos, meaning book), you are denying the infinity, activity, and life of God. God is alive and speaking. He did not stop speaking 2000 years ago when the last chapter of the bible was written.
Furthermore, even by your own solo-scriptora reasoning your argument does not stand. Scripture contains instances of God speaking to people where his exact words are not recorded. For example, God warns the magi to return home by a different rout, but he is not quoted (Mat 2: 12). If the words of scripture are the only words of God, then every time God speaks to someone in the bible he would have to be quoted. Also note that "word" has different meanings. In the beginning of the Gospel of John we read; "In the beginning there was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God" (John 1: 1) - If you limit the "Word of God" to mean only the words written in the book, then you must translate the beginning of the Gospel of John to mean; "In the beginning there was the Bible, and the Bible was with God, and the Bible was God", which is of course ridiculous. Not only is such a translation ridiculous, it makes you an idolater, because you equate the Bible with God. I pointed this out to you on an earlier occasion, but you didn't seem to get it last time, so I am repeating myself. I imagine you know what the Bible says about idolaters, and I'm sure you also know what it says about correcting those who are in error. You are in grave error friend, and your soul is on the line. Not only are you in error, you are attempting to spread your error to others, and I'm sure you also know what the bible says about that, something about a millstone being tied around one's neck and being cast into the sea. If my words don't give you pause, then you should ask yourself why you are not concerned about the sin of idolatry when a brother points it out to you. When you say the Jesus prayer, focus on the word living. Perhaps this will help you.
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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leery11 wrote:
So what happens if someone is lead away from that Gospel into another religious path, but feels just as liberated and saved as you do now? Truth does not change because someone has a feeling. 2+2 is never 5, no matter how fervently you might "feel" it. You say we do not find it, but that it finds us. That makes free will irrelevant to me.... Unconverted man has no "free will", his will is bound in sin and he is spiritually dead. what if someone is exposed to the Gospel, finds it ludicrous, and finds deep inner peace through Taoism instead? Did the Holy Spirit lead him that way, to Taoism? No. Why didn't it lead him to the Gospel since he's encountered it in his lifetime, since you say it is not up to us? He was never lead by the Spirit, the Spirit leads one into truth, not into a false belief system. Maybe at a later point in his life the Spirit will come and apply the Word and convert him. The Spirit comes like the wind to those who are ordained to eternal life, and the wind is not controlled by man's will. Your missing a point about grace, it is FREELY given by God. The fact that most will never be converted shows that is was never given to them, and it was not in the Divine purpose to give it to them. You are using scripture to prove scripture again. That is good that you say you have the spirit and that it has bolstered your faith, though. But frankly I cannot see divinity working in such a constrictive way, with only one path. Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. Most all of them claim their superiority at the cost of other religions being wrong. Therefore any religion you choose can lead to the same convictions that you hold now, but with a different flavor. Not any I suppose, but many. Personal conviction does not change reality. You either know God, or you have a false god. How do you know the Jews aren't right, that Christ was not the messiah, for example? Scripture plainly declares the fact that the Jews were not right about Christ and He is the Messiah. Or that the Muslims are right, that Christ was just a prophet and there are many more prophets out there. Again since scripture is my authority for all doctrine, we know the Muslims are wrong. There is almost assuredly a way to salvation through Christianity, and it is heavily rooted in scripture. I do not frankly see it as the only way. The way is the only way, and Christianity is a path to the way. Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Ac 4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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shroomydan wrote:
I imagine you know what the Bible says about idolaters, and I'm sure you also know what it says about correcting those who are in error. You are in grave error friend, and your soul is on the line. Not only are you in error, you are attempting to spread your error to others, and I'm sure you also know what the bible says about that, something about a millstone being tied around one's neck and being cast into the sea. You are correct, idolators worship a false god, it is a most serious matter. However I am not in error, you are the one who is bringing the errors. Take heed to your own advise against idolatry.
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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Quote: That is such a silly thing to say. Quote: shuffle the cards and pick one, follow it blindly to the end. The gate is indeed challenging to enter, I will agree with your scripture on that though. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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Some people can be brainwashed with varying degrees of effort.
Some people only require a light rinse. Y'shua ben Miriam would reject much of Christendom if He were 'in the flesh' today. I can imagine, for example, one or two scholars who speak Aramaic (more likely fluent Hebrew-speaking Israelis) explaining to Y'shua how He is the Incarnate Hyposthesis of a Triune Godhead. Better yet, I can imagine a Greek-speaking (Y'shua in all probability spoke the then universal language) hipping Y'shua to the fact that the Earth is just not at the center of the universe, that the stars are massive bodies, and help to clarify cosmology for Him. In the interest of Truth, I think the Man would be appreciative, even though we moderns still have much to learn from His spiritual understanding. Certain human beings maintain an adolescent perspective. They still believe that the world revolves around their point of view, just like pre-Copernican Ptolemaic people believed that that the Earth was the center of God's universe. If God's redemption is available to humans, then saviors no doubt exist on other worlds (mythically and/or historically) to assist other beings on their spiritual paths. One would hope that Compassion/Love is the message throughout our galaxy and the millions of other galaxies in the universe. I mean, if Christ embodies Divine Compassion on Earth, and the message is one of universal brotherhood, we really ought to maintain a cosmic perspective. Imagine a future like the one depicted in Star Trek. Now imagine a human trying to push the Bible and the 1st century Y'shua as the savior of, not only all people on Earth, but of all beings in the known universe! Earthly crusades would not compare to interstellar warfare! Imagine the intolerance of religious fundamentalists inflated to cosmic proportion! I mean, what are the estimates? Like, how many hundred million stars in our Milky Way galaxy? And there are like 100 million galaxies estimated. How many stars is that, and how many stars have planets that support intelligent life? Imagine the presumption of a fundamentalist Earthman trying to impose his little belief on other species - even more intelligent and perhaps more spiritually advanced beings (or did I say something wrong here? Are human beings not the favorite, most advanced embodied beings under God? Is this not another shot at the pre-Copernican world-view? If Earth isn't at the center of God's universe, does that not imply that WE are not the most important little monkeys in the universe as well?) Fanaticism is nothing more than pathological egocentricity. There is no universality, no cosmic consciousness, just an Eichmannesque "I vas just following my orders from ze Book!" OCD at its worst. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Servent ofWisdom Registered: 02/10/06 Posts: 7,059 Loc: Crown and Heart Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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Hah.
You do know that you're just a counterpart of a counterpart. Fundamentalists of every tradition seem to think like you. If you were face to face with a Muslim who was as equally literalist and legalist as you are, he would be contending that it is actually you who is unsaved. It's fundamentalist logic. You believe only a Christian elite are saved (minus Catholics, Gnostics, Eastern Orthodox and everything in between). Likewise, Muslim literalists will tell you that since Muhammad is the "Seal of Prophecy" anyone who rejects Submission to God in Islam is unsaved (including Shias, Sufis, Ahmadis, Naqshbandis). But you know what fivepointer? Despite your vain attempts to understand the Mystery of God (and they are vain), God still loves you and will overlook your misconceptions of Him in a heart beat. All those years of offending Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews will likely be forgiven by your own realization at death when the remnants of your ego pertaining to an intolerant personality become obliterated before the Face of the Almighty. You will realize the full idea of Holiness, Compassion and Love. And while you may feel shame before God for attempting to drag these bits of egoic remnants into the Holy World, you will be more than grateful for the Mercy of God. -------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Servent ofWisdom Registered: 02/10/06 Posts: 7,059 Loc: Crown and Heart Last seen: 12 years, 8 months |
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That would be quite humbling for humanity if we were to discover an alien civilization (or vise versa) with the exact same mythological symbols pertaining to Metaphysical Truth; complete with their own archetypes of the Awakened man (or whatever they may be, heh). Hopefully such civilizations will have less fundamentalism.. I can just barely imagine an invasion of earth by alien beings, demanding that we accept some savior-figure that we've never heard of. I hope the irony dawns on earth's chest-pounding extremists. Fundamentalism has no brains and has no heart.
-------------------- "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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+++Amen+++
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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What I find interesting is that when I compare the me as a little child, compared to the me burdened with dogma... it was the me as a little child that was closest to purity. The most free. Open. Loving. He was not ashamed or humiliated of his body, nor of exploration of it.
This did not make him a slut, a whore, a sinner. An evil person. He was completely loving, albeit in a naive way. He had his own share of indoctrination against criminals, drug users, Saddam Hussein... But I remember being taught about Jesus for the first time. And though my memories are not very clear, I believe that I was just as pure of a person before being initiated into Christianity as I was after. But here's the most marvelous thing. So now I believed in Jesus. I was still a pure and loving child, my only faults were the faults put into me by society and parental habit. Faults such as perhaps tolerating the killing of flies and small insects.... supporting social atrocities such as the holocaust on drug users....... blindly loving country........ but I did not choose for these beliefs to be planted in my fertile head.... rather I trusted in authority out of love and pureness....... unfortunately this authority I trusted was nothing but loving or pure. And again I trusted in authority of the preachers and their hell sermons...... out of a desire to be a better person, to be closer to Christ... and oh..... oh... well.... but I went on being pure with Christ as I was without... that is until fundamentalism FORGED its way into my head with HELLFIRE in my youth having moved to the Bible Belt. Then do you know how I felt? I felt that I was not saved even though I tried so hard to be.... that Jesus wouldn't help me.... God wouldn't help me..... Fundamentalism comes from not knowing. Fear comes from not knowing. If you fear God how on earth or heaven or hell can you maintain a personal relationship with him? He's an angry boyfriend that is just as likely to give you a severe beating as he is to make love to you. I used the Jesus prayer last night and a strange flood of voices overode my normal thought train while falling asleep.... but it seemed like it was being said "don't do this" or "I won't help you" -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (06/01/06 01:57 PM)
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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Each moment arises anew, so what is the designated period of time between prayers? One minute? One hour? One day? Or, one second? Like frame-after-frame in a filmstrip, the individual frames in motion give the illusion of a continuous motion. The Jesus Prayer attempts, in time, to 'suggest' a state of ceaseless prayer. Such a state, metaphysically taken, is the condition of Blessed Eternity. The only 'voices' warning one away could be thought of as demonic - even if it is merely a part of our incomplete ('fallen') nature holding us down. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/20/06 09:38 AM)
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waiting ![]() Registered: 02/01/05 Posts: 4,033 Loc: mountains and la Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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Quote: Lol that's how I used to pray when I was a kid. Also kind of busts the catholic idea that you have to speak 10+ prayers for a sin to be washed. -------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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newbie Registered: 08/03/02 Posts: 1,428 Last seen: 7 years, 2 months |
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leery11:
But I remember being taught about Jesus for the first time. And though my memories are not very clear, I believe that I was just as pure of a person before being initiated into Christianity as I was after. No Christian thinks they are pure, only sinners are saved, not pure people. While sin no longer has the dominion on the Christian, Christians still sin. But what follows is sorrow for sin, and true repentance. But no matter the sin that may be committed the believer knows that the law can not charge him, since Jesus has already paid the penalty, the just shall live by faith. This is true liberty and motivation out of love and thanksgiving, not out of fear. Leery11: Fundamentalism comes from not knowing. Fear comes from not knowing. If you fear God how on earth or heaven or hell can you maintain a personal relationship with him? He's an angry boyfriend that is just as likely to give you a severe beating as he is to make love to you. First of all I reject the term "fundamentalist" since those on this board are using it in the Spongian sense. I have refuted Spongism in a previous thread. Why do you think a Christian fears God? Perfect love casts out fear. The Christian has full assurance of God's love, and He pours His Holy Spirit into the heart. The only fear is a godly fear, a reverential fear, not a fear of punishment. While every sinner is fully worthy to be damned, God shows His love to those who have been brought to see their lost, ruined, undone condition, by the powerful convicting power of the Spirit, and despite who they are He loves them unconditionally, through the person and work of Jesus Christ. Salvation and fear of punishment are mutually excluded. Some have tried to charge me with the term legalist. The gospel excludes all forms of legalism, grace and legalism are polar opposites. Legalism hinges favor with God by acts of personal obedience. Grace hinges favor with God not on any act of personal obedience, but solely on God's sovereign goodness, despite the fact that sinners have no goodness.
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Whatever and ever, amen Registered: 05/31/06 Posts: 1,919 Loc: Brilliance/Insan Last seen: 8 days, 19 hours |
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I think that with such a sort prayer really you have more of a mantra, something to repeat to help slow down your mind as you meditate. (Or in my case attempt to.) I find that it's very helpful to have a short phrase to repeat that can sort of calm you down and keep your mind quiet. I personally prefer the 12 stepper's prayer, but really it's a matter of picking something that resonates well for you.
-------------------- The story goes, or the way that I was told There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low And so he called all the wise men to the hall And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king Engraved in black, it had no front or back But there were words around the band that said Just know: This Too Shall Pass
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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Quote: I am not sure that I understand what you mean. One prayer said is said eternally? I understand your reasoning of mindfulness in relation to eternity, in relation to frames. The goal for ceaseless prayer and connection.... Quote: Hmm. Well I think they were the voices of my doubt. It took a bunch of thoughts existing "above" me (since I had been dredging into near sleep) and thrust them "below" me for ultra processing yielding a brief hypnagogic or myoclonic flood of condensed concepts.... a hypnagogic flurry or uprising if you will. What is with the snake? -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Edited by leery11 (06/01/06 10:44 PM)
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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It is said that the celestial beings that surround 'the throne' of God, pray "Holy, Holy, Holy LORD" in a ceaseless manner. Of course this is symbolic, and eternity is not a matter of duration. I meant it in the sense of an uninterrupted awareness of God.
I expect that without a disclaimer that negative forces within the psyche are distracting you from this holy prayer, you are bound to receive that the voices represent angelic advice not to indulge in "vain repetitions" (even though I qualified such vanity as the Pharasaic show-off behavior of being known for "much praying.") The repetition of divine names is found in Christendom, Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam. It may be found in Shinto and other religions as well. The Kabbalistic Tree often indicates the 'Lightning Path' from the top down - symbolic of God creating the worlds from the Singularity in Kether [Crown] to the multiform sensory-perceived physical universe in Malkuth [Kingdom]. The Serpent Path is our own human consciousness (like the symbol of the Kundalini-Shakti in Hindu Tantra). The symbol here does NOT indicate the devil, the tempter on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil from Genesis, but it DOES indicate Knowledge [Gnosis] on the Tree of Life - the other tree in Eden. "AND the LORD God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:" Genesis 2:22 It was said of the first tree: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17 Now does this mean that man already had eternal life prior to eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? Perhaps, but not CONSCIOUS Eternal Life, but an unconscious, or unself-conscious existence (as the late great Jungian Edward Edinger pointed out). The Eden myth is the story of the birth of Consciousness, both in the individual and in humankind. Eternal Life in the New Testament or Gnostic sense is a Superconscious condition, not the condition of the beasts of the Earth who seem to have a glimmer of self-conscious awareness. Eden is a symbol for the Great Round, the Great Mother, the womb from which we must leave a tensionless, unconscious 'intrauterine' existence, and begin to Individuate from the body of our mother and the physical world in general. THEN, not only must we develop self-consciousness - ego - we must transcend THIS egocentric condition. The Tree of Life (later, thought of as the cross of Christ, and Christ the fruit of it) is the means for acquiring Eternal Life in God. We were all supposed to be banished from the Garden. The Garden is the womb. Consciousness requires painful rending - sever the umbilical (the Garden is the World Navel) - an angel with a flaming sword ousts the primal parents. The Serpent is not evil qua evil, but serves a necessary function just as Judas Iscariot did in the New Testament story. We must Know how to balance our Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is a juggling act, not black and white - onesidedly childish. Wisdom requires a masterful handling of the opposites - Conjunctio Oppositorum - without which there is no Enlightenment. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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so Markos from your position does method of enlightenment matter..... are any paths there just as valid..?
Recitation of Buddhas vs Recitation of Christ? I feel as if the prayer might indeed be helpful but then I went and started thinking too much afterward. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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No, "method" seems to imply that we achieve, or earn Enlightenment somehow. I tend to believe that Enlightenment is a state of the Heart, not the Head. Many esoteric doctrines make the Heart as the 'seat of the mind,' the place to which the mind returns in sleep and in death (it has occurred to me that sharp cardiac pain would forcibly direct the mind to the Heart in fatal failure).
I tend to believe that an Enlightened Buddhist will behave phenomenologically like an Enlightened Christian, Muslim, etc., but the mental/intellectual/doctrinal 'Head' content will be noticably different. For example, synchronistic events seem to constellate around Enlightened people - even those who are temporarily Enlightened on psychedelics. A Christian may well speak of synchronistic events in terms of grace, providence or miracle (minor though they be). A Theravadin Buddhist (say, Thai or Cambodian) - one not given to the notion of deities as in Tibetan Buddhism - will no doubt observe the phenomena, but not speculate or consider it to be 'makyo' one of those paranormal 'things' that are best not to get attached to because they interest the mind in things occult - a detour from the goal of Enlightenment. The crux of the matter lies in Compassion, which in turn requires detachment from one's moment-to-moment ego involvement with life: e.g., "I'm having my morning coffee before work and I'm not going to trouble myself by unlocking the back door and scooping that drowning bug out of the pool. Besides, it might bite me and it looks repulsive!" A failure of Compassion. Or, another example: encountering (as I do in North Miami Beach) a family of Orthodox Jews walking to synagogue (as I saw today). Now, I remembered comments about why Orthodox Jews still wear clothes that belong in cold, 19th century Poland, not Miami in June. But, I saw that their method is to remain 'mindful' of ancient Jewish precepts. End of mental involvement, light changes, drive away. A fundamentalist Christian might condescendingly judge how lost and damned these Jews are because they obviously have not accepted (the Johnny-Come-Lately) Jesus, or they would've abandoned their bizarre ways! I thought: "Ya gotta love 'em - bizarre looking, hot as hell and all." Not what I think of as Enlightenment, but relative to the Judgement/Severity of Geburah (expressed by the hypothetical fundamentalist), a benevolent (Merciful) perception IS the more Enlightened perception if Compassion is the crux of the matter. Whatdayathink?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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I think you are well learned and I somewhat follow you.
Compassion is religion? "Kindness is my religion" - Dalai Lama? I agree about the heart chakra's importance... it just usually isn't active in me yet. One day after some light fasting I got up and it was buzzing and I felt great, and I merged with people that I randomly encountered, made one of them substantially happier. It was good. But normally I'm caught in feelings of despair, hostility, pessimism for the state of affairs of the world. And feel rather powerless. To me the chakras seem to cut religion up into a non-religoius way to experience the divine... I find the system agreeable and non-dogmatic, and an adequate way of explaining all psychic and miraculous phenomenon. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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Actually, the Heart Cave [Hridayam] or the Sacred Heart (Hindu and Catholic Christian) are symbols of a Reality that are far deeper than the Anahata Chakra, which belongs to Astral anatomy. Read Sri Ramana Maharshi for the best explication of the difference. It is the seed syllable 'HUM' in the Tibetan Buddhist 'OM MANI PADME HUM.'
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Babyman Registered: 05/22/06 Posts: 996 Loc: Seattle Last seen: 17 years, 3 months |
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the purpose of prayer is to remember your connection with god.
if you need to pray over and over and over repeatedly it means you are doing something wrong. repeated prayer maybe used to invoke a nearness to God by some people,it might get you high by hyperventilating, i dunno. one thing i do know, when your mouth is talking, the little electric signals inside your brain get vocused in on the part of your brain responsible for talking. And while it's doing that, the electric impulses move away from the part of your brain that is actually listening in communion with God. If I were to chant the Lords Prayer over and over, all it would do is desensitize me to it, and ruin it for me. The reason Jesus warns against that sort of thing Is because it's basically a form of magic, or witchcraft to tempt the Lord God. And Jesus died so you didn't have to do that stuff anymore. You can if you want, but why? You can pray at night, and dawn, and over your meals, when you get in your car, drop the kids off at school. There's alot of opportunities to pray. You can live in a constant state of prayer if you want, but that seems kinda obsessive compulsive and psychotic, not to mention a huge waste of time, lol. God is all around you watching you all the time, you don't have to sit there and say "look! i'm thinking about you" he knows already. i use to chant and practice invoking god and all that stuff. maybe that is what i need to do then, looking back i think i was just confused, and then again everyone teaches them ownselves. if you're practicing repitious prayer because somebody told you to, it's a dumb idea. if you're doing it because something inside you is drawing you with some strange force of love, then it's sort of hard to stop huh?
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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I've been well acquainted with adult prayer life since at least 1975. I discovered the Philokalia in 1976 and its tradition of Contemplative Prayer (which you are confusing with Petitionary Prayer) has been an integral part of my development for three decades.
I think you said it best when you wrote: "i dunno," because you obviously do not Know. You might read up on Prayer of Thanksgiving and Petitionary Prayer as well, in order to learn different movements of the human 'spirit' [consciousness] in its interaction with 'Spirit' [God]. Prayer is not magick, and Contemplative Prayer is the highest form of prayer leading to theosis. Look it up. -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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I Tell You What! Registered: 06/24/05 Posts: 5,998 Last seen: 8 years, 9 months |
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I guess for me it's the kind of notion of wanting to be enlightened, but then that may be an obstacle to getting there.
I want to engage in mantra-prayer so as to enter altered states of consciousness.... communion with the beyond... God or Tao or Jesus or Buddha or whatever is out there that is deeper than I. I want to go places and feel good. I want to be connected and mindful. This comes with meditation...... can it come with prayer? Can it be granted by God ... or does it require hard work no matter what? Frankly I wanna get high I guess..... but a comfortable one with the grace of love at my side, guiding me and showing me that which I am ready to see that will help me be much more spiritual and connected when I come back down. I should probably work fervently on Dream Yoga and meditate daily. I think I will very soon once I get moved in. -------------------- ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human......
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Elder Registered: 12/09/99 Posts: 14,279 Loc: South Florida Last seen: 3 years, 1 day |
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The desire to 'get high' comes with a youthful introduction to altered states. Buddhist psychology speaks of the 'desire' for bliss, but this 'desire' needs to be relinquished. First of all, it is a desire-based motivation of the ego. So long as the ego wants to bliss out and feel good, it is just a more subtle manifestation of egocentricity - "blissful sexless highs" - as poet Gary Snyder once called such.
Realization is a much more subtle affair. It is difficult to describe, it is not a superconscious hyperpranic inner state, for example. That would be the experience of 'OM' in which white light annihilates all discursive thought and memory in an eternal moment of infinite intensity. No, Realization embodies simplicity of thought/action. No multitasking. It is clarity and attentiveness to the here and now. It is fearlessness (of death), and therefore it is the 'peace that passes all understanding.' Realization is being simultaneously aware of space-time [existence] and eternity [essence]. THIS is the Gnostic's understanding about the doctrine of Jesus Christ - 'fully God, fully man,' which the Literalist attributes ONLY to Jesus, making Jesus Christ different from the rest of humanity by 'specie,' not by 'degree.' Jesus Christ is, as Grace Slick once sang, "...anyman's story...." There was a time when I found this to be heretical...when I was indoctrinated by mainstream Christian thought...when I was unaware of the negative consequences of placing Jesus on a mythological pedestal, effectively removing any helpfulness in so doing. The Biblical Jesus (historical, mythical, or mythically enhanced historical) KNEW God. THAT is what Christ [Consciousness] IS. It is the Reality in which Knower, Knowledge and Known - are ONE. Peace be with you on your quest. -MtG -------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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zZzZzZzZz Registered: 01/17/05 Posts: 3,888 Loc: |
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Quote: thats the word that is not to be spoken
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