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fivepointer
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: shroomydan]
#5695912 - 05/31/06 05:57 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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shroomydan wrote: I imagine you know what the Bible says about idolaters, and I'm sure you also know what it says about correcting those who are in error. You are in grave error friend, and your soul is on the line. Not only are you in error, you are attempting to spread your error to others, and I'm sure you also know what the bible says about that, something about a millstone being tied around one's neck and being cast into the sea.
You are correct, idolators worship a false god, it is a most serious matter. However I am not in error, you are the one who is bringing the errors. Take heed to your own advise against idolatry.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Quote:
fivepointer said:
Again since scripture is my authority for all doctrine, we know the Muslims are wrong.
That is such a silly thing to say.
Quote:
Muslim Extremists said:
Again since scripture is my authority for all doctrine, we know the Christians are wrong.
shuffle the cards and pick one, follow it blindly to the end.
The gate is indeed challenging to enter, I will agree with your scripture on that though.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: leery11]
#5696217 - 05/31/06 07:23 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Some people can be brainwashed with varying degrees of effort. Some people only require a light rinse.
Y'shua ben Miriam would reject much of Christendom if He were 'in the flesh' today. I can imagine, for example, one or two scholars who speak Aramaic (more likely fluent Hebrew-speaking Israelis) explaining to Y'shua how He is the Incarnate Hyposthesis of a Triune Godhead. Better yet, I can imagine a Greek-speaking (Y'shua in all probability spoke the then universal language) hipping Y'shua to the fact that the Earth is just not at the center of the universe, that the stars are massive bodies, and help to clarify cosmology for Him. In the interest of Truth, I think the Man would be appreciative, even though we moderns still have much to learn from His spiritual understanding.
Certain human beings maintain an adolescent perspective. They still believe that the world revolves around their point of view, just like pre-Copernican Ptolemaic people believed that that the Earth was the center of God's universe. If God's redemption is available to humans, then saviors no doubt exist on other worlds (mythically and/or historically) to assist other beings on their spiritual paths. One would hope that Compassion/Love is the message throughout our galaxy and the millions of other galaxies in the universe. I mean, if Christ embodies Divine Compassion on Earth, and the message is one of universal brotherhood, we really ought to maintain a cosmic perspective.
Imagine a future like the one depicted in Star Trek. Now imagine a human trying to push the Bible and the 1st century Y'shua as the savior of, not only all people on Earth, but of all beings in the known universe! Earthly crusades would not compare to interstellar warfare! Imagine the intolerance of religious fundamentalists inflated to cosmic proportion! I mean, what are the estimates? Like, how many hundred million stars in our Milky Way galaxy? And there are like 100 million galaxies estimated. How many stars is that, and how many stars have planets that support intelligent life? Imagine the presumption of a fundamentalist Earthman trying to impose his little belief on other species - even more intelligent and perhaps more spiritually advanced beings (or did I say something wrong here? Are human beings not the favorite, most advanced embodied beings under God? Is this not another shot at the pre-Copernican world-view? If Earth isn't at the center of God's universe, does that not imply that WE are not the most important little monkeys in the universe as well?)
Fanaticism is nothing more than pathological egocentricity. There is no universality, no cosmic consciousness, just an Eichmannesque "I vas just following my orders from ze Book!" OCD at its worst.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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Hah.
You do know that you're just a counterpart of a counterpart. Fundamentalists of every tradition seem to think like you. If you were face to face with a Muslim who was as equally literalist and legalist as you are, he would be contending that it is actually you who is unsaved. It's fundamentalist logic. You believe only a Christian elite are saved (minus Catholics, Gnostics, Eastern Orthodox and everything in between). Likewise, Muslim literalists will tell you that since Muhammad is the "Seal of Prophecy" anyone who rejects Submission to God in Islam is unsaved (including Shias, Sufis, Ahmadis, Naqshbandis).
But you know what fivepointer? Despite your vain attempts to understand the Mystery of God (and they are vain), God still loves you and will overlook your misconceptions of Him in a heart beat. All those years of offending Muslims, Catholics, Hindus, Buddhists, Jews will likely be forgiven by your own realization at death when the remnants of your ego pertaining to an intolerant personality become obliterated before the Face of the Almighty. You will realize the full idea of Holiness, Compassion and Love.
And while you may feel shame before God for attempting to drag these bits of egoic remnants into the Holy World, you will be more than grateful for the Mercy of God.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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Basilides
Servent ofWisdom


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That would be quite humbling for humanity if we were to discover an alien civilization (or vise versa) with the exact same mythological symbols pertaining to Metaphysical Truth; complete with their own archetypes of the Awakened man (or whatever they may be, heh). Hopefully such civilizations will have less fundamentalism.. I can just barely imagine an invasion of earth by alien beings, demanding that we accept some savior-figure that we've never heard of. I hope the irony dawns on earth's chest-pounding extremists. Fundamentalism has no brains and has no heart.
--------------------
    "Have you found the beginning, then, that you are looking for the end? You see, the end will be where the beginning is. Congratulations to the one who stands at the beginning: that one will know the end and will not taste death."
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: Basilides]
#5697071 - 05/31/06 10:13 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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+++Amen+++
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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What I find interesting is that when I compare the me as a little child, compared to the me burdened with dogma... it was the me as a little child that was closest to purity. The most free. Open. Loving. He was not ashamed or humiliated of his body, nor of exploration of it.
This did not make him a slut, a whore, a sinner. An evil person. He was completely loving, albeit in a naive way. He had his own share of indoctrination against criminals, drug users, Saddam Hussein...
But I remember being taught about Jesus for the first time. And though my memories are not very clear, I believe that I was just as pure of a person before being initiated into Christianity as I was after.
But here's the most marvelous thing. So now I believed in Jesus. I was still a pure and loving child, my only faults were the faults put into me by society and parental habit. Faults such as perhaps tolerating the killing of flies and small insects.... supporting social atrocities such as the holocaust on drug users....... blindly loving country........ but I did not choose for these beliefs to be planted in my fertile head.... rather I trusted in authority out of love and pureness....... unfortunately this authority I trusted was nothing but loving or pure. And again I trusted in authority of the preachers and their hell sermons...... out of a desire to be a better person, to be closer to Christ... and oh..... oh... well....
but I went on being pure with Christ as I was without... that is until fundamentalism FORGED its way into my head with HELLFIRE in my youth having moved to the Bible Belt.
Then do you know how I felt? I felt that I was not saved even though I tried so hard to be.... that Jesus wouldn't help me.... God wouldn't help me.....
Fundamentalism comes from not knowing. Fear comes from not knowing. If you fear God how on earth or heaven or hell can you maintain a personal relationship with him? He's an angry boyfriend that is just as likely to give you a severe beating as he is to make love to you.
I used the Jesus prayer last night and a strange flood of voices overode my normal thought train while falling asleep.... but it seemed like it was being said "don't do this" or "I won't help you"
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/01/06 01:57 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: leery11]
#5700339 - 06/01/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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See the very middle sphere? It is called Tiphereth [Beauty or Harmony] or Rahamim [Compassion]. Directly above Tiphereth are two spheres - Geburah [Severity or Wrath] to the left, and Chesed [Mercy] to the right. We usually feel like we're under the Wrath or Severe side of God, and we must balance Wrath with Mercy. The three spheres taken together form The Ethical Triangle in Kabbalistic psychology, and we must endeavor to find Harmony there. That is why asking for Mercy in the Jesus prayer is deemed a corrective to the Wrath that our separated (from God) sinful existence needs to find Harmony.
Each moment arises anew, so what is the designated period of time between prayers? One minute? One hour? One day? Or, one second? Like frame-after-frame in a filmstrip, the individual frames in motion give the illusion of a continuous motion. The Jesus Prayer attempts, in time, to 'suggest' a state of ceaseless prayer. Such a state, metaphysically taken, is the condition of Blessed Eternity. The only 'voices' warning one away could be thought of as demonic - even if it is merely a part of our incomplete ('fallen') nature holding us down.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
Edited by MarkostheGnostic (08/20/06 09:38 AM)
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Quote:
fivepointer said: The Jesus Prayer--the continuous repetition of "Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner"
Jesus denounces vain repetition in prayers:
Matthew 6:7 But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
This is the anti-Jesus prayer since it goes against what Jesus taught
Lol that's how I used to pray when I was a kid.
Also kind of busts the catholic idea that you have to speak 10+ prayers for a sin to be washed.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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fivepointer
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: leery11]
#5700542 - 06/01/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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leery11: But I remember being taught about Jesus for the first time. And though my memories are not very clear, I believe that I was just as pure of a person before being initiated into Christianity as I was after.
No Christian thinks they are pure, only sinners are saved, not pure people. While sin no longer has the dominion on the Christian, Christians still sin. But what follows is sorrow for sin, and true repentance. But no matter the sin that may be committed the believer knows that the law can not charge him, since Jesus has already paid the penalty, the just shall live by faith. This is true liberty and motivation out of love and thanksgiving, not out of fear.
Leery11: Fundamentalism comes from not knowing. Fear comes from not knowing. If you fear God how on earth or heaven or hell can you maintain a personal relationship with him? He's an angry boyfriend that is just as likely to give you a severe beating as he is to make love to you.
First of all I reject the term "fundamentalist" since those on this board are using it in the Spongian sense. I have refuted Spongism in a previous thread.
Why do you think a Christian fears God? Perfect love casts out fear. The Christian has full assurance of God's love, and He pours His Holy Spirit into the heart. The only fear is a godly fear, a reverential fear, not a fear of punishment.
While every sinner is fully worthy to be damned, God shows His love to those who have been brought to see their lost, ruined, undone condition, by the powerful convicting power of the Spirit, and despite who they are He loves them unconditionally, through the person and work of Jesus Christ. Salvation and fear of punishment are mutually excluded.
Some have tried to charge me with the term legalist. The gospel excludes all forms of legalism, grace and legalism are polar opposites. Legalism hinges favor with God by acts of personal obedience. Grace hinges favor with God not on any act of personal obedience, but solely on God's sovereign goodness, despite the fact that sinners have no goodness.
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NobodyCares
Whatever and ever, amen


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I think that with such a sort prayer really you have more of a mantra, something to repeat to help slow down your mind as you meditate. (Or in my case attempt to.) I find that it's very helpful to have a short phrase to repeat that can sort of calm you down and keep your mind quiet. I personally prefer the 12 stepper's prayer, but really it's a matter of picking something that resonates well for you.
-------------------- The story goes, or the way that I was told There was a king that always felt too high and then he fell too low And so he called all the wise men to the hall And begged them for a gift to end the rises and the falls But here’s the thing, they came back with a ring It was simple and was plainly unbefitting of a king Engraved in black, it had no front or back But there were words around the band that said Just know: This Too Shall Pass
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said: The Jesus Prayer attempts, in time, to 'suggest' a state of ceaseless prayer. Such a state, metaphysically taken, is the condition of Blessed Eternity.
I am not sure that I understand what you mean. One prayer said is said eternally? I understand your reasoning of mindfulness in relation to eternity, in relation to frames. The goal for ceaseless prayer and connection....
Quote:
The only 'voices' warning one away could be thought of as demonic - even if it is merely a part of our incomplete ('fallen') nature holding us down.
Hmm. Well I think they were the voices of my doubt. It took a bunch of thoughts existing "above" me (since I had been dredging into near sleep) and thrust them "below" me for ultra processing yielding a brief hypnagogic or myoclonic flood of condensed concepts.... a hypnagogic flurry or uprising if you will.
What is with the snake?
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
Edited by leery11 (06/01/06 10:44 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: leery11]
#5703247 - 06/02/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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It is said that the celestial beings that surround 'the throne' of God, pray "Holy, Holy, Holy LORD" in a ceaseless manner. Of course this is symbolic, and eternity is not a matter of duration. I meant it in the sense of an uninterrupted awareness of God.
I expect that without a disclaimer that negative forces within the psyche are distracting you from this holy prayer, you are bound to receive that the voices represent angelic advice not to indulge in "vain repetitions" (even though I qualified such vanity as the Pharasaic show-off behavior of being known for "much praying.") The repetition of divine names is found in Christendom, Buddhism, Hinduism and Islam. It may be found in Shinto and other religions as well.
The Kabbalistic Tree often indicates the 'Lightning Path' from the top down - symbolic of God creating the worlds from the Singularity in Kether [Crown] to the multiform sensory-perceived physical universe in Malkuth [Kingdom]. The Serpent Path is our own human consciousness (like the symbol of the Kundalini-Shakti in Hindu Tantra). The symbol here does NOT indicate the devil, the tempter on the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil from Genesis, but it DOES indicate Knowledge [Gnosis] on the Tree of Life - the other tree in Eden.
"AND the LORD God said, Behold the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever:" Genesis 2:22
It was said of the first tree:
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:17
Now does this mean that man already had eternal life prior to eating the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil? Perhaps, but not CONSCIOUS Eternal Life, but an unconscious, or unself-conscious existence (as the late great Jungian Edward Edinger pointed out). The Eden myth is the story of the birth of Consciousness, both in the individual and in humankind. Eternal Life in the New Testament or Gnostic sense is a Superconscious condition, not the condition of the beasts of the Earth who seem to have a glimmer of self-conscious awareness. Eden is a symbol for the Great Round, the Great Mother, the womb from which we must leave a tensionless, unconscious 'intrauterine' existence, and begin to Individuate from the body of our mother and the physical world in general. THEN, not only must we develop self-consciousness - ego - we must transcend THIS egocentric condition. The Tree of Life (later, thought of as the cross of Christ, and Christ the fruit of it) is the means for acquiring Eternal Life in God.
We were all supposed to be banished from the Garden. The Garden is the womb. Consciousness requires painful rending - sever the umbilical (the Garden is the World Navel) - an angel with a flaming sword ousts the primal parents. The Serpent is not evil qua evil, but serves a necessary function just as Judas Iscariot did in the New Testament story. We must Know how to balance our Knowledge of Good and Evil. It is a juggling act, not black and white - onesidedly childish. Wisdom requires a masterful handling of the opposites - Conjunctio Oppositorum - without which there is no Enlightenment.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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so Markos from your position does method of enlightenment matter..... are any paths there just as valid..? Recitation of Buddhas vs Recitation of Christ?
I feel as if the prayer might indeed be helpful but then I went and started thinking too much afterward.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: leery11]
#5705306 - 06/02/06 08:09 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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No, "method" seems to imply that we achieve, or earn Enlightenment somehow. I tend to believe that Enlightenment is a state of the Heart, not the Head. Many esoteric doctrines make the Heart as the 'seat of the mind,' the place to which the mind returns in sleep and in death (it has occurred to me that sharp cardiac pain would forcibly direct the mind to the Heart in fatal failure).
I tend to believe that an Enlightened Buddhist will behave phenomenologically like an Enlightened Christian, Muslim, etc., but the mental/intellectual/doctrinal 'Head' content will be noticably different. For example, synchronistic events seem to constellate around Enlightened people - even those who are temporarily Enlightened on psychedelics. A Christian may well speak of synchronistic events in terms of grace, providence or miracle (minor though they be). A Theravadin Buddhist (say, Thai or Cambodian) - one not given to the notion of deities as in Tibetan Buddhism - will no doubt observe the phenomena, but not speculate or consider it to be 'makyo' one of those paranormal 'things' that are best not to get attached to because they interest the mind in things occult - a detour from the goal of Enlightenment.
The crux of the matter lies in Compassion, which in turn requires detachment from one's moment-to-moment ego involvement with life: e.g., "I'm having my morning coffee before work and I'm not going to trouble myself by unlocking the back door and scooping that drowning bug out of the pool. Besides, it might bite me and it looks repulsive!" A failure of Compassion. Or, another example: encountering (as I do in North Miami Beach) a family of Orthodox Jews walking to synagogue (as I saw today). Now, I remembered comments about why Orthodox Jews still wear clothes that belong in cold, 19th century Poland, not Miami in June. But, I saw that their method is to remain 'mindful' of ancient Jewish precepts. End of mental involvement, light changes, drive away. A fundamentalist Christian might condescendingly judge how lost and damned these Jews are because they obviously have not accepted (the Johnny-Come-Lately) Jesus, or they would've abandoned their bizarre ways! I thought: "Ya gotta love 'em - bizarre looking, hot as hell and all." Not what I think of as Enlightenment, but relative to the Judgement/Severity of Geburah (expressed by the hypothetical fundamentalist), a benevolent (Merciful) perception IS the more Enlightened perception if Compassion is the crux of the matter. Whatdayathink?
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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I think you are well learned and I somewhat follow you.
Compassion is religion? "Kindness is my religion" - Dalai Lama?
I agree about the heart chakra's importance... it just usually isn't active in me yet. One day after some light fasting I got up and it was buzzing and I felt great, and I merged with people that I randomly encountered, made one of them substantially happier.
It was good. But normally I'm caught in feelings of despair, hostility, pessimism for the state of affairs of the world. And feel rather powerless.
To me the chakras seem to cut religion up into a non-religoius way to experience the divine... I find the system agreeable and non-dogmatic, and an adequate way of explaining all psychic and miraculous phenomenon.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: leery11]
#5705987 - 06/02/06 11:27 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Actually, the Heart Cave [Hridayam] or the Sacred Heart (Hindu and Catholic Christian) are symbols of a Reality that are far deeper than the Anahata Chakra, which belongs to Astral anatomy. Read Sri Ramana Maharshi for the best explication of the difference. It is the seed syllable 'HUM' in the Tibetan Buddhist 'OM MANI PADME HUM.'
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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Telepylus
Babyman


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the purpose of prayer is to remember your connection with god.
if you need to pray over and over and over repeatedly it means you are doing something wrong.
repeated prayer maybe used to invoke a nearness to God by some people,it might get you high by hyperventilating, i dunno. one thing i do know, when your mouth is talking, the little electric signals inside your brain get vocused in on the part of your brain responsible for talking. And while it's doing that, the electric impulses move away from the part of your brain that is actually listening in communion with God.
If I were to chant the Lords Prayer over and over, all it would do is desensitize me to it, and ruin it for me.
The reason Jesus warns against that sort of thing Is because it's basically a form of magic, or witchcraft to tempt the Lord God. And Jesus died so you didn't have to do that stuff anymore.
You can if you want, but why? You can pray at night, and dawn, and over your meals, when you get in your car, drop the kids off at school. There's alot of opportunities to pray.
You can live in a constant state of prayer if you want, but that seems kinda obsessive compulsive and psychotic, not to mention a huge waste of time, lol. God is all around you watching you all the time, you don't have to sit there and say "look! i'm thinking about you" he knows already.
i use to chant and practice invoking god and all that stuff. maybe that is what i need to do then, looking back i think i was just confused, and then again everyone teaches them ownselves.
if you're practicing repitious prayer because somebody told you to, it's a dumb idea. if you're doing it because something inside you is drawing you with some strange force of love, then it's sort of hard to stop huh?
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MarkostheGnostic
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Re: The Jesus Prayer [Re: Telepylus]
#5707092 - 06/03/06 11:00 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've been well acquainted with adult prayer life since at least 1975. I discovered the Philokalia in 1976 and its tradition of Contemplative Prayer (which you are confusing with Petitionary Prayer) has been an integral part of my development for three decades.
I think you said it best when you wrote: "i dunno," because you obviously do not Know. You might read up on Prayer of Thanksgiving and Petitionary Prayer as well, in order to learn different movements of the human 'spirit' [consciousness] in its interaction with 'Spirit' [God].
Prayer is not magick, and Contemplative Prayer is the highest form of prayer leading to theosis. Look it up.
-------------------- γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself
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leery11
I Tell You What!

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I guess for me it's the kind of notion of wanting to be enlightened, but then that may be an obstacle to getting there.
I want to engage in mantra-prayer so as to enter altered states of consciousness.... communion with the beyond... God or Tao or Jesus or Buddha or whatever is out there that is deeper than I.
I want to go places and feel good. I want to be connected and mindful. This comes with meditation...... can it come with prayer? Can it be granted by God ... or does it require hard work no matter what?
Frankly I wanna get high I guess..... but a comfortable one with the grace of love at my side, guiding me and showing me that which I am ready to see that will help me be much more spiritual and connected when I come back down.
I should probably work fervently on Dream Yoga and meditate daily. I think I will very soon once I get moved in.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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