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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684254 - 05/28/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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i really gave everything to this relationship and shared everything with her. Now i am paying the price for that.
This is a sign that you gave too much. When we give what we can afford, and only as much as we can afford, we do not pay a price later. But when we give on credit, we always get billed with interest. 
Sometimes relating to others from within healthy boundaries can feel selfish or miserly, when we compare it to our old "giving" ways. The guilt rises, demanding outrageous sums as "proof" of our love. My method for dealing with this is to gently ask myself what I can give without expectation of return. This is what I can afford.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684258 - 05/28/06 06:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sinbad said: Id rather become a monk than join the dark side of the force!
Damn!
Humor is good for your condition.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: grimR]
#5684273 - 05/28/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Psychology preaches that every human/animal acts on whatever meets their next basic need. There is no such thing as love, caring or any of those feel good/comfort teachings.
My studies in psychology have revealed no such doctrine. Perhaps you meant biology?
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: grimR]
#5684274 - 05/28/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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grimR said: Many people have a hard time coming to realize, we are nothing more than animals with more going on for us psychologically. No matter how we try to play it off, we will still have the hardwired instincts as any other mammal.
Hard-wired instincts, eh? I've never found any evidence of this, in my experience. I have tendencies based upon previous programming, but they certainly aren't "hard-wired". A conscious individual can completely navigate the living of one's life as that individual wishes.
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You can't trust anyone given specific circumstances anyone can stab you in the back. Don't trust them. Or anyone for that matter.
So what? Hold no expectations of reality, and do not necessitate that one's state of being is to be derived from external aspects of reality. Trust will not be an issue, and there will be no need to "guard" (seperate from reality) anything.
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Psychology preaches that every human/animal acts on whatever meets their next basic need.
An individual acts based upon how an individual feels to act, in relation to reality.
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There is no such thing as love, caring or any of those feel good/comfort teachings.

How do you know?
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We all wish life had more to it than this
Life has the meaning and purpose that we instill within it. I cannot speak for your experience, but I regret that it apparently is from a state of lack and incompleteness, unfufillment and wishing for more. It sounds as though your awareness is not within the present moment.
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, but as humans we are no better than a virus in this world, consuming natural resources until this world is nothing more than dead matter.
Pretty bleak outlook, one would have to question what is responsible for the formation of your expressed perspective. Do you not reap much from life (what you sow)?
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Sorry for the rant but just speaking what comes to mind. Truth is all you have is your family while you live here.
All we have is our experience and our awareness thereof. The nature of this is such that it is our responsibility for our meaning, purpose, perception, and experience of reality and of life. It is ultimately, extremely open-ended. As I already stated, you reap what you sow.
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Use em an lose em... or just let it happen to you
Honestly, that is a limited amount of unattractive options. I prefer to simply life my life and directly perceive it, and to openly interact with others in whatever manner such interaction will unfold. No attachment to any preconceived notions of what "should" be, but only what is, and also the realization of the blessing of the oppurtunity to inhabit the same space and time with other living individuals. Interaction is quite the thing, and it should not be taken for granted or obstructed as we tend to do.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Veritas]
#5684282 - 05/28/06 06:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Veritas said:
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i really gave everything to this relationship and shared everything with her. Now i am paying the price for that.
This is a sign that you gave too much. When we give what we can afford, and only as much as we can afford, we do not pay a price later. But when we give on credit, we always get billed with interest. 
Sometimes relating to others from within healthy boundaries can feel selfish or miserly, when we compare it to our old "giving" ways. The guilt rises, demanding outrageous sums as "proof" of our love. My method for dealing with this is to gently ask myself what I can give without expectation of return. This is what I can afford.
Yes this is true. But she wanted to know everything, and would probe me constantly for me to open up and be honest etc, when i really wasnt ready to do that. i did it anyway becuase i thought i could trust her, and i stupidly imagined, (as everyone else did) that we were so compataible that our relationship was definitely going to be a very logn one.
All of our freinds would comment on how well we fitted together and everyone was just as shocked as i was when we broke up, as they all assumed we were long-term. I guess this is why i am hurting so badly and she can just move on easily like nothing has happened. I gave too much and trusted too much, so now i have to pay the piper.
Oh well, lots of teachings in this situation for me to work with. Thanks alot everyone.
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Veritas]
#5684288 - 05/28/06 06:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Veritas said:
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Psychology preaches that every human/animal acts on whatever meets their next basic need. There is no such thing as love, caring or any of those feel good/comfort teachings.
My studies in psychology have revealed no such doctrine. Perhaps you meant biology?
Biology ow that hurts ;-) here is a quote relating to it:
"Maslow's hierarchy of needs is a theory in psychology that Abraham Maslow proposed in his 1943 paper A Theory of Human Motivation, which he subsequently extended. His theory contends that as humans meet 'basic needs', they seek to satisfy successively 'higher needs' that occupy a set hierarchy. Maslow studied exemplary people such as Albert Einstein, Jane Addams, Eleanor Roosevelt, and Frederick Douglass rather than mentally ill or neurotic people, writing that "the study of crippled, stunted, immature, and unhealthy specimens can yield only a cripple psychology and a cripple philosophy."
"Maslow's hierarchy of needs is often depicted as a pyramid consisting of five levels: the four lower levels are grouped together as deficiency needs associated with physiological needs, while the top level is termed growth needs associated with psychological needs. While our deficiency needs must be met, our being needs are continually shaping our behaviour. The basic concept is that the higher needs in this hierarchy only come into focus once all the needs that are lower down in the pyramid are mainly or entirely satisfied. Growth forces create upward movement in the hierarchy, whereas regressive forces push prepotent needs further down the hierarchy."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
BTW FYI these are just my beliefs, this is the Philosophy forum afterall, don't think I am trying to say I know "The Ultimate Truth," I don't think anyone does. Just speaking my mind as I think it. And saying I feel incomplete, far from it. I just hold different views than yourself, but I don't tell you what is right and what is wrong, I speak my mind, I never meant to offend anyone elses belief.
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
Edited by grimR (05/28/06 06:59 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684294 - 05/28/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I predict you will rebound with more depth and understanding and will one day be grateful for this difficult lesson.
Now don't forget to send me that photo. Buy the way. What are you wearing under your robes?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684295 - 05/28/06 06:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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she wanted to know everything, and would probe me constantly for me to open up and be honest etc, when i really wasnt ready to do that. i did it anyway becuase i thought i could trust her,
Did you really do it because you thought you could trust her, or because you thought the relationship might end if you said "no, I'm not ready to talk about that yet"?
I often gave too much because I was afraid of the consequences if I held back. My belief that my worth was measured by what I gave, not who I was, led me to give on credit again and again.
You might ask yourself what the "or else" was...what was the worst that could happen if you had declined to answer all of her probing questions, if you had allowed the intimacy to develop at a pace you were more comfortable with, if you had allowed the trust to build based upon her actions, rather than giving it immediately.
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Icelander]
#5684307 - 05/28/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: I predict you will rebound with more depth and understanding and will one day be grateful for this difficult lesson.
Now don't forget to send me that photo. Buy the way. What are you wearing under your robes?
oh you tease! (gay lisp)
jk straight all the way up for me :-P
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: grimR]
#5684308 - 05/28/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hierarchy of needs
1. Physiological 2. Safety 3. Love/Belonging 4. Esteem 5. Actualization
How do you come to the conclusion that higher needs do not exist, and that we are all seeking to satisfy our next basic need?
Once the physiological needs (breath, water, food, urination, defecation, sleep, body temperature regulation) are met, we move up the "pyramid" and seek to fulfill our psychological needs.
In fact, Maslow stated that our "being" (actualization) needs shape our behavior far more than our "deficiency" (physiological and psychological) needs.
Maslow in no way stated that love does not exist, but rather emphasized the importance of higher needs in our satisfaction with life.
Edited by Veritas (05/28/06 07:16 PM)
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MOTH
Wild Woman


Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 23,431
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684322 - 05/28/06 07:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Look at it this way: "I shared everything with her." 
You opened and gave yourself to her, put forth your energy to fill her. You shared. In life and experience. There are probably good times and not so enjoyable moments to recall, but that doesn't matter now. They are memories of your shared journey with her. You took part in one of the soul's adventures here on the planet. I don't know, that seems cool to me. If you shared everything with her, then you did well. You committed an act of love.
You should feel good about that. Take peace from the knowledge that you did share everything, believe me, it's beautiful that you have that potential. But you must never forget about YOU. It just seems to me that the only "permanant" thing in your life is you. And even that's not entirely steady, what with the uncertainty of death and all. People will always leave, one way or another. But you'll be the last one standing anyway, the only one standing at the threshold of your life and death. Therefore, I truly believe YOU should come first in matters of the heart.
It's truly special that you shared everything with her. Just remember that in sharing you no way lose yourself.
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Veritas]
#5684324 - 05/28/06 07:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Your correct. I did only answer her questions for that reason, not out of trust at all. I have often measured my worth to others by how much i give. So that is a very accurate assessment. i should have let the intimacy develop at its own pace, i see that now. Also 3 months into the relationship i had to have a talk with her, because i was feeling very vulnerable and claustrophobic. We were spending all of our time together and things were moving way to fast for me.
Apparently for her nothing was the same after that talk. She said that afterwards she was afraid to talk to me about her worries and would sometimes feel as if she had to give me my space, even when she felt she needed me for something. So the relationship shifted gears dramatically, and i didn't even notice that something was wrong. In fact i thought things had improved because finally i was being allowed some room to breath. But towards the end of our relationship i felt we were drifting apart. We would argue over trivial things alot. This is when things got a little messy so i wont get into it here.
Not long after she broke it off, and i was devastated. I wasn't even aware of my own attachments until that point. Anyway, you were correct, i opened up and gave too much too soon for the wrong reasons and everything got messed up from there. We did actually talk alot about this when we were together and i thought we had actually resolved the problem when i addressed her constant probing. But obviously i didn't handle that situation very well either and might have hurt her feelings by being to straight up and blunt about the problems. Relationships are complicated. I don't think ill be getting into another one for a long time after this.
Edited by Sinbad (05/28/06 07:13 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684344 - 05/28/06 07:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
A "no" uttered from deepest conviction is better and greater than a "yes" merely uttered to please, or what is worse, to avoid trouble. -Mahatma Gandhi
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Veritas]
#5684351 - 05/28/06 07:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
Hierarchy of needs
1. Physiological 2. Safety 3. Love/Belonging 4. Esteem 5. Actualization
How do you come to the conclusion that higher needs do not exist, and that we are all seeking to satisfy our next basic need?
Once the physiological needs (breath, water, food, urination, defecation, sleep, body temperature regulation) are met, we move up the "pyramid" and seek to fulfill our psychological needs.
In fact, Maslow stated that our "being" (psychological) needs shape our behavior far more than our "deficiency" (physiological) needs.
Maslow in no way stated that love does not exist, but rather emphasized the importance of higher needs in our satisfaction with life.
"Love/Belonging needs
After physiological and safety needs are fulfilled, the third layer of human needs are social. This involves emotionally-based relationships in general, such as friendship, sexual intimacy, and/or having a family. Humans want to be accepted and to belong, whether it be to clubs, work groups, religious groups, family, gangs, etc. They need to feel loved (sexually and non-sexually) by others, and to be accepted by them. People also have a constant desire to feel needed. In the absence of these elements, people become increasingly susceptible to loneliness, social anxiety and depression."
- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs#Love.2FBelonging_needs
Now that you mention it, I guess everyone can have their own definition of love
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: grimR]
#5684360 - 05/28/06 07:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maslow said: The love needs. -- If both the physiological and the safety needs are fairly well gratified, then there will emerge the love and affection and belongingness needs, and the whole cycle [p. 381] already described will repeat itself with this new center.
Now the person will feel keenly, as never before, the absence of friends, or a sweetheart, or a wife, or children. He will hunger for affectionate relations with people in general, namely, for a place in his group, and he will strive with great intensity to achieve this goal. He will want to attain such a place more than anything else in the world and may even forget that once, when he was hungry, he sneered at love. ... One thing that must be stressed at this point is that love is not synonymous with sex. Sex may be studied as a purely physiological need. Ordinarily sexual behavior is multi-determined, that is to say, determined not only by sexual but also by other needs, chief among which are the love and affection needs. Also not to be overlooked is the fact that the love needs involve both giving and receiving love.
How is this an alternate definition of love?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684380 - 05/28/06 07:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sidbad, The fact that she had to probe so constantly and against your wishes and then felt insecure when you wouldn't share "everything" says loads about her. I have had run ins with this type of woman. IMO they are deeply insecure and you could never provide enough to meet those kind of infinite needs. She needed to know everything because she was witholding so much of her truth from you.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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grimR
hippiousmaximous


Registered: 03/29/06
Posts: 1,235
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Veritas]
#5684391 - 05/28/06 07:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Now the person will feel keenly, as never before, the absence of friends, or a sweetheart, or a wife, or children. He will hunger for affectionate relations with people in general, namely, for a place in his group, and he will strive with great intensity to achieve this goal. He will want to attain such a place more than anything else in the world and may even forget that once, when he was hungry, he sneered at love.
- Not Maslow
you added to the book of maslow!
Your welcome to your own beliefs, it shouldn't bother you that I have my own. I do believe in these needs but I try not to take them anymore serious than requirements for happiness. Never did I say I do not participate in acting on these needs, it is inevitable.
-------------------- - grimR -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- http://egolost.com "I am already given to the power that rules my fate. And I cling to nothing, so I will have nothing to defend. I have no thoughts, so I will see. I fear nothing, so I will remember myself." - Don Juan teachings
Edited by grimR (05/28/06 07:35 PM)
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Sinbad
Living TheMoment


Registered: 12/23/04
Posts: 2,571
Loc: Under The Bodhi Tree
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Icelander]
#5684409 - 05/28/06 07:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Icelander said: Sidbad, The fact that she had to probe so constantly and against your wishes and then felt insecure when you wouldn't share "everything" says loads about her. I have had run ins with this type of woman. IMO they are deeply insecure and you could never provide enough to meet those kind of infinite needs. She needed to know everything because she was witholding so much of her truth from you.
This is very true. Today she told me that she had feelings for someone else whilst we were still together. But i wont get into all the rubbish on this forum. Its way to complicated and messy for me to go into details again and i wont drag myself through it again. But yes you are right, she was withholding alot from me i think. You are correct about the insecurity issues as well. But i think she would rather me not discuss them openly on this board.
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Edited by Sinbad (05/28/06 07:53 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 95,368
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: Sinbad]
#5684416 - 05/28/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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All that matters is that you know it. We don't need to.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Re: Trust In Women [Re: grimR]
#5684426 - 05/28/06 07:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That quote is directly from Maslow's paper "A theory of human motivation." Here's the link:
http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Maslow/motivation.htm
I've read several of his books...he was an amazing teacher. I am very familiar with his ideas, and I'm struggling to understand how you have based your POV upon his writings.
It does not bother me that you have your own ideas, I was just asking you to elaborate. In what way is Maslow's description of love different from yours? Why do you believe that humans are slaves to their lower needs, to the exclusion of love?
Actualization goes beyond happiness--it could be described as the pinnacle of successful human life. While it is possible to become self-actualized without fulfilling all of your "lower" needs, it is not very probable.
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