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Offlinecdlove69
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vitamins and substrate
    #568215 - 03/03/02 03:01 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

If I add vitamins (like centrum A-Z) to my substrate will that affect anything... I was brainstorming ideas and maybe thought that adding vitamins might increase yield or potency....

anyone know?


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OfflineHumidity
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: cdlove69]
    #568636 - 03/03/02 03:21 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Multi-vitamins such as centrum contain many good vitamins and minerals, but they also contain many harmful vitamins and minerals. Keep in mind these pills are made for humans not mushroom mycellium. However, adding some specific vitamins and minerals probibly would be benifitial.


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Offlinecdlove69
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: Humidity]
    #568908 - 03/03/02 08:13 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

hmm.. okay..

so does anyone know what vitamins/minerals would be beneficial??


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Anonymous

Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: cdlove69]
    #569110 - 03/04/02 12:54 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

It varies from species to species, strain to strain, isolate to isolate. Fungi can synthesize there own vitamins, auxoautotrophs. Fungi can also be auxoheterotrophic for some Vitamins, and must obtain them directly from there environment. Mushrooms that are auxoheterotrophic, tend to be for thamine and biotin.
Have not seen any studies done on cubensis specifically. If you are gonna try, these two vitamins would be a good place to start. You are gonna whant to obtain them from a chemical supply company, because as was mentioned, over the counter vitamins are full of filler, things that might cause problems, or could possibly be responsible for any positive results.

If the fungi synthesizes the vitamin itself, any additional amount could have negative effects.


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InvisibleNighted

Registered: 11/10/01
Posts: 564
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: ]
    #569123 - 03/04/02 01:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

You can order these from some pharmacies. I know because I've done it myself a few times.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: cdlove69]
    #569144 - 03/04/02 01:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Excerpt from


GENETICS AND BREEDING OF EDIBLE MUSHROOMS

Shu-ting Chand

John A. Buswell

Philip G. Miles

Copyright 1993


4.2. Nutritional Requirements


The nutritional requirements for mycelial
growth are relatively simple. Since the fungi are heterotrophic organisms, they
must be supplied with a source of carbon. While many carbon sources may
be used, individual species commonly
have a preference, but among the simple sugars glucose is most frequently preferred,
and in amounts of approximately 2%. In addition to the simple sugars, polysaccharides
may provide carbon for the fungi. Such polysaccharides are the usual source
of carbon for fungi in nature, and the insoluble polysaccharides, such as cellulose,
are broken down by extracellular enzymes to simpler, soluble units which are
then taken into the fungal hyphae by absorptive (osmotrophic) nutrition.
Under certain conditions a number of organic compounds (alcohols, organic acids,
polycyclic compounds, and ammo acids) may also provide carbon for mycelial growth.
It is worth mentioning at this point that a mixture of sugars may give greater
growth than simply the summation of growth to be obtained by each separately
(Horr, 1936). On the other hand, another frequent observation in studies of
carbon nutrition is that when a fungus is supplied with a mixture of carbon
sources, it may use one preferentially over the others. The matter of concentration
of carbon source is also important in determination of the effectiveness of
promotion of growth. This has been shown in Coprinus lagopus (= C.
cinereus)
by Moore (1969) with the demonstration that growth on sucrose
is negligible at low concentrations but occurs at higher sugar concentrations.



Obviously, all organic compounds (carbohydrates, amino acids, lipids, nucleic acids) require carbon in their skeletal framework but it should not be overlooked that the carbon compounds supplied to fungi also provide the energy required for the organism's metabolic activities.


Nitrogen is a required element
in media used for the growth of fungi. It is essential for the synthesis of
fungal proteins, purines, pyrimidines, and is also necessary for the production
of chitin, a common lunyal cell wall polysaccharide that is composed of units
of N-acetylglucosamine. While there are a few fungi that have been reported
in the past to fix atmospheric nitrogen, there is no confirmation, using modern
techniques, that this is true and there certainly are no filamentous fungi that
do. To date, nitrogen fixation is known to occur only in prokaryotic organisms.
Thus, the common sources of nitrogen in fungal media are salts of nitrate and
ammonium, and organic nitrogen compounds. A generalization can be made to the
effect that the nitrogen requirements of all fungi can be met by organic nitrogen
(e.g., peptone or amino acids), some may utilize the ammonium ion, and some
may use nitrates. Those that utilize nitrate are also able to use the ammonium
ion. In the ceil the ammonium ion is combined with a-ketoglutaric acid in the
presence of glutamic dehydrogenase to form glutamic acid, and other amino
acids may be formed by transaminase reactions.
Thus, there is a relationship between ammonia and TCA cycle intermediates which
leads to the formation of amino acids.



A medium for the growth of fungi must contain minerals. The mineral requirements are similar to those for plants. While some fungi require a reduced form of sulfur, most species utilize sulfur as sulfate (e.g., magnesium sulfate) in a range of 0.0001 to 0.0006 M. The role of sulfur is for sulfur-containing amino acids (e.g., cysteine and methionine), for vitamins such as thiamine and biotin, and in some cases for products of secondary metabolism (e.g., penicillin). Phosphorus is present in ATP, nucleic acids, and the phospholipids of membranes. It is commonly included in growth media as potassium phosphate at a concentration of about 0.004 M. Potassium has the role of a cofactor in many enzyme systems and its requirement is fulfilled at a concentration of 0.001 to 0.004 M.



Many enzymes are activated by magnesium, essential to all fungi, and magnesium sulfate, when supplied at a concentration of 0.001M, satisfies this requirement.



Equally important mineral elements, although required in lower concentrations, are the trace elements: iron, zinc, manganese, copper, and molybdenum. These are constituent elements in enzymes and are not all universally required by fungi.


Vitamins are organic molecules
required in small amounts and not used as a source of energy or structural material
of protoplasm. The vitamin has a catalytic action and imparts specificity in
its function as a coenzyme. The vitamin requirement is influenced by temperature
and pH since it is concerned with enzyme activity. Most fungi are able to make
their own vitamins, but sometimes in amounts too low to givp optimal growth.
Thiamine (vitamin B) is a natural deficiency of a number of basidiomycetes,
including the wood-rotting edible mushrooms Lentinus edodes and Flammulina
velutipes.
Biotin (vitamin B7 or vitamin H) is a natural deficiency for
some fungi such as the ascomycetes Neurospora and Sordaria.



A chemically defined medium that supports the growth of many edible basidiomycetes is as follows:


Dextrose 20.0 g

Asparagine 2.0 g

KH2PO4 0.46 g

K2HPO4 1.0 g

MgSO4.7H2O 0.5 g

Thiamine-HCl 0.12 mg

Distilled H2O 1000 ml



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Anonymous

Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: Nighted]
    #569146 - 03/04/02 01:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Yes I am sure you can, was just suggesting not to use the bottles they sell with all the rest of the supplements.

You said you have ordered them before, did you do any trials on cubensis? Any observations to share?


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InvisibleNighted

Registered: 11/10/01
Posts: 564
Loc: U.S.A.
Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: ]
    #569194 - 03/04/02 02:38 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I don't have enough data compiled over a long enough period of time to make any authoritative observations. What I have found so far is that these additives are far less important to a mushrooms life cycle than the environmental conditions themselves in addition to a suitable substrate and a vibrant strain. I really can't see myself doing anymore experimenting with nutritional additives in the future. Genetics and strain selection are much more exciting and therefore are currently on my agenda.


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Anonymous

Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: Nighted]
    #569199 - 03/04/02 02:44 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

cool


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Offlineegghead
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: cdlove69]
    #569295 - 03/04/02 05:45 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think the main thing to watch for are fungicidic substances like copper compounds, especially copper sulfate, and sulfur. Other than that, whatever you add most likely won't hurt.


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OfflineHumidity
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: egghead]
    #569585 - 03/04/02 02:17 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Amino Acids would also be a good additive.


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Offlinetriptamine
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: cdlove69]
    #572953 - 03/07/02 11:24 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Mr C.B. Gold says you can increase psilocybin content by 30% by adding dextrose to rye substrate. He also notes that addition of a mixture of trace minerals can raise psilocybin by 20%....I forgot the name of the mineral mix he used. By using both together, psilocybin content was very good (does not mention how much, but it was better than each alone).

Jason


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OfflineHumidity
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: triptamine]
    #573514 - 03/08/02 04:44 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Who is C.B. Gold? This could be some valuable information if it is true, and if the correct amounts of each mineral are found.


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Offlineramuk
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Registered: 12/29/01
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: Humidity]
    #573839 - 03/09/02 12:47 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Dextrose? Hmmmmm....

What about Maltodextrin? More complex and higher GI index in humans. Anyone?



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Anonymous

Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: ramuk]
    #573883 - 03/09/02 01:53 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

I think you mean maltose, which I believe is like two glucose molecules joined together minus
2 hydrogen atoms and 1 oxygen atom. When it is metabolised it actually has a slightly higher
glycemic index than glucose but has a lower caloric value because energy is used converting
it to glucose.

I cannot speak for mushroom metabolism but their cousins, the yeast cannot break down
maltodextrin easily, so high levels of it give beer a heavier body.

Speaking of beer, I've used yeast nutrient from home brew supply stores to supplement my
substrate and it seems to work well. Friends have commented that the shrooms grown were the
best they ever had. They may have just been kissing my ass but then it also might have been
because it was free for them.

There are two kinds of yeast nutrients, one is ammonium phosphate, which is used as a
supplemental nitrogen source (I haven't used this but I may try it one day). The other, which
I have used, is merely dead yeast, it is a good source of B vitamins and trace minerals.
Don't worry about fermenting your substrate from this as any yeast that may be dormant
should be killed when you PC or boil your substrate. I think this is a better route than dropping
a multi-vitamin in your substrate, there's less chance of overdoseing the mycellium and I believe
less chance of poisoning them with some excipient or food coloring which is harmless to
humans but may be fatal to your crop.

I also once ran across a powdered vitamin supplement (not yeast) in a brewing supply store.
If you see something like this it should be a free flowing powder or tablet with a yellow or orange
color. If it has any dark brown or black spots or appears sticky or moist at all, avoid purchasing
it, it's too old.


Edited by Anonymous (03/09/02 02:10 AM)


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Offlineramuk
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: ]
    #574078 - 03/09/02 10:03 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

Ah, ok.  I was thinking of the maltodextrin powder that is popular in the weight training crowds for carbing up.  Maltose is the same sugar I believe.

Just seemed to make sense since there are more available slots on the molecule for the fungi to take up the nutrients it needs, kinda like the insulin reaction in humans. 

It's funny how the "complex" carbos are only that way in a molecular way really, scientists initially thought that since the sugar molecule is bigger that it would take longer to be broken down by the human system and a lower GI index would result.  Exactly the opposite is usually true.  Weird.

Maybe there's something to it thought like you said.  Or maybe just an increased effeciency on a per "shroom supplement" basis, maybe less needed for malto compared to dextrose.  Either way it's only really a cost effective equation, malto is pretty cheap, dunno bout dextrose. 

I wonder if any shroomers have done experimental studies on supplementing with the various sugars: fructose, sucrose, maltose, or combos....

Oh well, what do I know, I'm still a complete noob who hasn't even grown a first crop yet. :smile:
 


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Offlinetriptamine
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: Humidity]
    #576229 - 03/11/02 10:52 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This C.B. Gold I speak of wrote an article in "Psychedelic Monographs and Essays" in which he tried various growing mediums to show effects on potency and overall yield in P. Cubensis. The micronutrients I noted earlier is TMI. Stands for trace minerals, Inc. It comes from the clay bed of the Columbia river in Oregon. He also tried various other sugars. Glucose did increase psilocybin, but not too significantly (if I remember correct) but dextrose helped 30%.

Jason


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Anonymous

Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: triptamine]
    #576394 - 03/12/02 01:51 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

"Glucose did increase psilocybin, but not too significantly (if I remember correct)
but dextrose helped 30%."

This is interesting because dextrose is dextrorotary glucose. Many organic molecules occur
with either a right/clockwise twist (dextrorotation) or a left/counterclockwise twist (levorotation).
Glucose would be a combination of these (perhaps 50 - 50). I wonder what would
happen if the glucose was double the quantity of dextrose...

Do you have any links to this article, or do you know where and when it was published?


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Offlinemadscientist
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: ]
    #576546 - 03/12/02 06:08 AM (15 years, 2 months ago)

To cut back to the chase, use yeast extract. This has all the B-vitamins that the shrooms need. In the lab, I normally culture fungi using YPD media (Yeast extract-peptone-dextrose) or a mix of starch with yeast extract.


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Offlinetriptamine
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Re: vitamins and substrate [Re: ]
    #578096 - 03/13/02 08:38 PM (15 years, 2 months ago)

This article is in "Psychedelic Monographs and Essays" volume 6. Copyright 1993, by Thomas Lyttle. Check with mindbooks for this one.

Jason.

PS. Sorry no links. It is not online.



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