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redgreenvines
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komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late
#5679696 - 05/27/06 06:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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my personal cult idea about the associative mental fabric is as follows: 1. It connects what happens together into a single pattern and motif (forming engrams).
2. It recalls what happenned that was simmilar (by resonance between essential motifs - like tuning forks).
3. It smoothes (overlaps) what happens in sequence into coherent gestures and forms (from visual fragments smoothed into 3-D forms, up to and including the whole stream of consciouness - the movie of self - smoothed from a series of gestalt moments)
4. It always finds connections, patterns, and motifs to link things together (even forming interests that move beyond the self - some call it an un underlying search for meaning - resonance, even synchronicity).
I seem to tie everything back into this single fabric of mind view of the universe.
Number 3. The smoothing is the most interesting to me since the smoothing requires overlapping of one moment to the next, and psychedelic enhances this natural overlapping to the extent that many moments co-exist or stack up. In a sense it is the coming together of many selves, the gathering. Come not too late.
"komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late" - wm burroughs U tom waites - Black rider album
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Icelander
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5679904 - 05/27/06 09:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I seem to tie everything back into this single fabric of mind view of the universe.
Check out the first chapter of Castaneda's The Art of Dreaming. You might get a new clue as to why your above statement seems to be true.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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dblaney
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5680010 - 05/27/06 10:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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4. It always finds connections, patterns, and motifs to link things together (even forming interests that move beyond the self - some call it an un underlying search for meaning - resonance, even synchronicity).
I think that in many cases there in fact are connections and patterns linking seemingly disjointed events and things.
For instance, the other day my friend and I went on an acidic hike. At the beginning of the trail, we both noticed this wing from a butterfly that was colored very beautifully with deep shades of black, orange, grey, and blue. We admired it and continued on. Then, about 6 or 7 hours later, after a long hike, we went back to the car, and walked along to an overlook. On the short walk to the overlook, we both happened to look down and notice...the other wing to the same butterfly. It had the exact same colorings and patterns as the first wing, on both sides of it. And apparently my friend noticed that this half of the wing had the butterfly's body attached to it, but he may have been seeing things 
It seemed like more than a mere coincidence. So this connection finding function you speak of may sometimes be actual observation. Though to be honest, I haven't met many people who find much significance in linking things together outside of people who have taken psychedelics.
-------------------- "What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?" "Belief is a beautiful armor But makes for the heaviest sword" - John Mayer Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin. "This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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Veritas

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5680046 - 05/27/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
It smoothes (overlaps) what happens in sequence into coherent gestures and forms (from visual fragments smoothed into 3-D forms, up to and including the whole stream of consciouness - the movie of self - smoothed from a series of gestalt moments)
Most of your "cult" idea is an accurate reflection of what studies of the technical side of memory creation have shown. However, the "overlap," which creates a sense of cohesion, is probably created whole cloth. The threads come from our acquired self-concept, and we weave them together to close the gaps.
Perhaps psychedelics temporarily suspend the weaving process, allowing our orderly constructions to scatter as they may.
Edited by Veritas (05/27/06 10:39 AM)
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Veritas]
#5680500 - 05/27/06 01:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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psychs don't weave as neatly in a single two dimensional fabric discipline but they do work well with 3-d/4-d fabrick methods such as pleating, draping, felting, batting, winding, wrapping, and time spun caughton.
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Veritas

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5680502 - 05/27/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't forget tie-dye!
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Veritas]
#5682998 - 05/28/06 10:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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right, tie-dye bunches up nicely and spreads out divinely. which brings up the whole divine spreading thing and the search for love fame and fortune
amore, fama, fortuna
ahh... speaking of which I am headed to a mall with my heelys on this should provide a flowing experience, look out hazelton lanes, here I come.
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Lakefingers

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5683658 - 05/28/06 03:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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It would be interesting to hear you expound on 4 a bit, especially in relation to 2 and in relation to the body in the world (the body as you).
4 is essential to the others. It is the motivator (what motivates it...?) of 1, 2 and 3.
Curiously though, you haven't put much focus on the becoming of the whole, nor the contex, of the 'mental fabric'. I experience contextuality as the essence of invocation of this mental fabric and the combinations it synthesizes. I find that without the contextuality of phenomenon or quale, the mental fabric is inactive, uninspired and essentially speechless.
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Lakefingers]
#5683744 - 05/28/06 04:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK;
Quote:
4. It always finds connections, patterns, and motifs to link things together (even forming interests that move beyond the self - some call it an un underlying search for meaning - resonance, even synchronicity).
when several signals occur together, the excited braincells generate interference wave effects in the cortex of the brain. (this is basic, as basic as light bending when it hits water.)
the interference pattern has extra high energy locii due to waves crossing. This can be detected by certain multiaxxoned cells in the cortex known to exist, and known to be sensitive to spikes: so the 1)peaks of energy from 2) waves crossing, propogated from excited 3) cortical cells, excited by incoming 4) signals,  stimulate 5) multiaxoned cells - which in turn create a feedback circuit to several [#3)] excited cortical cells from incoming [#4)]signals.
the [#5)] multiaxoned cells touch hundreds of non-involved cells but only make permanent facilitative connections with the [#3)] excited cells from incoming [#4)]signals. (This is the mechanism of the elusive ENGRAM or abstract motif peculiar to each memory - some motifs connect to thousands of memories.)
If incoming signals recurr that cause any peak at the same locii (or abstract motif), recall of the entire previous image or memory can occur.
sometimes the memory is not adequately stimulated or some other signals create a dampenning effect on the interference field.
A person can sense there is some connection and not quite know what it is.
Adding or subtracting elements or signals to the mind can sometimes jog or relieve the condition of being unable to recall.
Sometimes going out of a room and coming back in does the trick.
In any case this yearning to connect is huge and can become epiphanic (when stacking takes place from psychedellic or emotional fervor). I am certain that dogs and cats have it too.
being speechless is not a problem - the conditioned and reactive mental fabric is still there and constantly active - we are not ever separate from it.

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Lakefingers

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5686686 - 05/29/06 02:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Interesting that you take into account the vagueness of association on the neural level. The physics of the mind...is it Newtonian (causal mechanisms, atomism, ...) for you? Or do you, for instance, incorporate the possibility of quantum states (acausality, etc) in the brain?
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Lakefingers]
#5687139 - 05/29/06 04:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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We can sort of tell what it is like to experience the world from a point in space oriented in a particular direction (hearing vision, and proprioception) But it would be very difficult to construe what memories are being elicited and invoked by the stream of inflowing data.
so the complex patterns and complex intereference patterns are the results of a barely conceivable sensory model, and a hugely abstract conditioned matrix of memory, which might be intuitable after great familiarity.
even a self will have difficulty predicting the self, except in a very narrow way or if they have very narrow habits (many do shut down immensely in order to feel like they know themselves).
SO my answer to this question is that I do think that the physics of the mind is bioelectric, dependent on a history of experience and a history of nutrition, and that it is interactive with a sensorium that is mostly reduced to bioelectric fields.
Those naturally induced fields can be altered outside of the normal circuitry by electrodes and maybe by other external events that can project or focus electric fields.
Also the mental fabric (the cerebral cortex) has been shown chemically reactive such that induced resonance (from combinations of sensation and memory) can be prolonged or shortened intensifying or distorting the usual sense of timing - even smoothing great spans of time into oddly parallel types of existence in dimensions that are very different from this one.
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Moonshoe
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5688172 - 05/29/06 07:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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OH
MY
FUCKING
GOD.
that was coherent.
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Everything I post is fiction.
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Icelander
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Moonshoe]
#5688186 - 05/29/06 07:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Lakefingers

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5690036 - 05/30/06 09:12 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Are you familiar with Maurice Merleau-Ponty's work "The Phenomenology of Perception"? Another book that might interest you, if you haven't read it already, is "The Nature of Consciousness" edited by Block, Flanaga and Güzeldere.
Have you studied any neuropsychology or neuroscience at university or college?
Quote:
SO my answer to this question is that I do think that the physics of the mind is bioelectric, dependent on a history of experience and a history of nutrition, and that it is interactive with a sensorium that is mostly reduced to bioelectric fields.
In asking the following question I do not wish to give ontological reality (nor necessity) to "free will", as the concept might be illusory due to the vocabulary and worldview built around it: is your model of the brain, or at least the associative fabric as you call it, deterministic? Perhaps not, you do write "[t]hose naturally induced fields can be altered outside of the normal circuitry by electrodes and maybe by other external events that can project or focus electric fields."
Quote:
Also the mental fabric (the cerebral cortex) has been shown chemically reactive such that induced resonance (from combinations of sensation and memory) can be prolonged or shortened intensifying or distorting the usual sense of timing - even smoothing great spans of time into oddly parallel types of existence in dimensions that are very different from this one.
It has been shown, but these scientific conclusions are constantly revised and discarded.
It seems that you're keen on implying that the distortion of time and space in the brain is more than a distortion -- that it is a perception of time and space that is equally as justified (or even superior to) the "normal" perception of space and time. So, are perceived dimensions existing objectively?--I ask because I'm wondering if you think there is an objective reality explored by the mind, or to be found in the mind.
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Lakefingers]
#5690149 - 05/30/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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*) no not familiar with him, but have loved some Jean-Paul Sartre (his contemporary) now and then, and I have been enjoying Jacques Derrida

*) yes I did study neuropsychology in university
*) there is a full body posture that I seem to take when I mean to do something: when I mean to take control of a situation, the energy of decision making courses through me and stresses me out. It is very pro-active (but is it free will?). I feel it through and through as a commitment, I have recognized that I need to do this thing, and so I am marshalling my forces to the task. This is the enactment of "my will" at the appropriate moment; something I have learned to do and will do again when it seems right; a routine. But It is a creative act as well. Only part of it is truly programmed.
In my openess to what ensues, and acceptance of the unpreditable, you could say that this is the essence of free will in action; wrt the unpredictable horizons of responses from the world, this is all chaos and flux. but you could say that it is just a predictable construct formed of tiny fractals of fixed shape and size.
But A machine to predict what was "pre-determined" in all of the seeds that have been planted would be bigger and more complex than the universe itself, IMO, the quality of pre-determinability of any particular set of things is a valuable quality, something good to depend on.
But The resolution of knowledge to remove all undecideability is too difficult to obtain while doing any particular thing, no matter how limited (everything is in an open system).
In this way the apparent unpredictability of fractals and other more complex combinations of natural things is a most essential factor; the "undecideability", as Derrida likes to remind us, unseats the primacy of arguments related to absolute knowledge, absolute predictability and free will itself.
*) IMO the mental states are real biologically, and when they are layered, qualities from layered perceptions are real in their own contexts which imply dimensions beyond what are palpable without layered mind states. However, I cannot drive safely when in a layered mind state.
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5692205 - 05/30/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zkox6niJ1Wc this link shows how resonance in a membrane takes shape crudely you can see that simple patterns result from vibrational interference within the shape, and these vary with the quantity of resonance absorptive material, as well as with subtle changes such as pitch. the cortex is much more complex, but the idea of geometric engram keys being significant to memory stores in a fractal way is related to this as well as to holography (in which the images are held by a pattern that does not look like the image but is related to both the image and the material that has it encoded within).
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Lakefingers

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5693793 - 05/31/06 03:49 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, Merleau-Ponty and Sartre also have something else in common: they were students of Heidegger. Although they are more Cartesian than Heidegger (especially Sartre).
Maurice Merleau-Ponty is someone you should investigate, especially the work "Phenomenology of Perception" if you're open to philosophy of mind, yet with a lot of neurophysical empiri weaved throughout. Merleau-Ponty is all about embodiment and breaking down traditional views on mind.
Peculiar mix of Derrida and Sartre really (for the above reason that Sartre is a Cartesian).
Beside our general interest in philosophizing, and our interest in more rigorous philosophy, we also have in common that we've studied neuropsychology.
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*) there is a full body posture that I seem to take when I mean to do something: when I mean to take control of a situation, the energy of decision making courses through me and stresses me out. It is very pro-active (but is it free will?).
My interpretation of "choice" (hence free will): we like what we without choice choose (with a strong dose of amor fati added).
Something I'm still curious about is what you call "will". Yes, you have a sufficiently inspiring and radical approach to the problem, but it seems that it all occurs within a framework of utter determinism. For instance, the programmed analogy is perhaps more than a metaphor and has become a way of thinking, espeically Newtonian-ly, especially functionalistically. Similarly this applies to the use of the terms "state", "biology",
The mental states may be real, but, as I wish to illustrate with my implementation of the horrid concepts "free will" and "determinism", it is wise not to mistake the theory for the world, the map for the territory, as it is a complex system out there in nature, biology, etc. And look at that!--I still call it a "system" or and "it" when I refer to what is not "system" and not "it".
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Lakefingers]
#5693815 - 05/31/06 04:28 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Canadian with no formal philoosophy at all lots of science, and buddhism and art.
i guess I am into cause and effect, in a highly conditioned and reactive matrix, and the system itself is self aware because we are.
Maybe there is no real issue about free will at all or maybe that is the only significant issue: that we can evaluate things consider our impact and make things better, (Is that too defined to be considered free will?)
Really I have never given the idea very much weight, I see it as an artificial construct. I see it as a non-physical part, while there are enough physical parts to explain the phenomena we experience.
Sometimes I trick myself into looking for things that others find important like Will or like a separate entity called God or an exalted habit such as Faith, or an attitude called Belief, but these concepts either fall into simpler classes for me or are red herrings put out to trap the mind in argument.
Many arguments ae so old that they are s substantial as religions, yet as valuable to thought as a geocentric universe model to an astrophysicist.
well, anyway, it is kind of you to put me in the same class as you, but I am less of a philosopher than a psychedelic appreciator & seeker of an intelligent way to be.
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Lakefingers

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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: redgreenvines]
#5698134 - 06/01/06 02:18 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, interdisciplinary studies are the heart of philosophy, whereas academic philosophy is its constrictive sphincter and constipated bowel.
About free will, determinism, (human) considerations and constructs, problems and issues and paradoxes: I think Nietzsche interprets this more astutely than any Westerner that I've encountered from Homer in 800 BCE to us in 2006.
"Cause and effect.-- "Explanation" is what we call it, but it is "description" that distinguishes us from older stages of knowledge and science. Our descriptions are better--we do not explain any more than our predecessors. We have uncovered a manifold one-after-another where the naive man and inquirer of older cultures saw only two separate things. "Cause" and "effect" is what one says; but we have merely perfected the image of becoming without reaching beyond the image or behind it. In every case the series of "causes" confronts us much more completely, and we infer: first, this and that has to precede in order that this or that may then follow--but this does not involve any comprehension. In every chemical process, for example, quality appears as a "miracle," as ever; also, every locomotion; nobody has "explained" a push. But how could we possibly explain anything? We operate only with things that do not exist: lines, planes, bodies, atoms, divisible time spans, divisible spaces. How should explanations be at all possible when we first turn everything into an image, our image! It will do to consider science as an attempt to humanize things as faithfully as possible; as we describe things and their one-after-another, we learn how to describe ourselves more and more precisely. Cause and effect: such a duality probably never exists; in truth we are confronted by a continuum out of which we isolate a couple of pieces, just as we perceive motion only as isolated points and then infer it without ever actually seeing it. The suddenness with which many effects stand out misleads us; actually, it is sudden only for us. In this moment of suddenness there is an infinite number of processes that elude us. An intellect that could see cause and effect as a continuum and a flux and not, as we do, in terms of an arbitrary division and dismemberment, would repudiate the concept of cause and effect and deny all conditionality." - Nietzsche, The Gay Science, pp. 172-3
Learning how to walk the way of the good life (the way to be as you call it) is what opens our eyes (from looking to seeing, from learning to understanding). Philosophy must be radical and live-able. Frankly Φιλο-σοφία does not happen within the bureaucracy of academia.
Philosophy is never philosophy (learning) at all. It is a relationship (philo-sophia) with, an understanding of, a way to go.
Socrates speaks radically in Phaedrus: the philosopher has one way to walk, the way of Love (through Eros), devoting their life to wisdom, speech and being. It is through the God of Love (Eros) that we are drawn to and sustained in philosophy (see §257b).
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redgreenvines
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Re: komme nicht zu spaet - Don't come too late [Re: Lakefingers]
#5698149 - 06/01/06 02:23 AM (17 years, 7 months ago) |
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and where is mumuland? (I think you told me before)
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