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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 19,274
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Fear and Respect
#5664759 - 05/23/06 02:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fear and respect are both useful methods for gaining compliance from others, but one is better.
Parent/Child In the case of a parent and child, the child who obeys because he loves and doesn't want to disappoint his parents is happier, better behaved, and better adjusted than the child who obeys out of fear of punishment. This is because the urge to obey a parent who is respected comes from within instead of being forced by threat of punishment.
When an opportunity to skirt the rules with little chance of being caught presents itself, the respectful child will abide, while the fearful one will probe the limits of his confinement.
The good parents' goal should be to keep discipline to the absolute minimum required; none at all if possible. Only in this way will the child respect and willingly obey rather than fear and seek to usurp his parents' authority.
Boss/Employee This theme repeats in the case of a boss and an employee. The employee oppressed and whose creativity is stifled by rigid rules and a boss more interested in catching rule violations than in fostering a healthy corporate culture will count it as a good thing every time he can sneak out of the office early or arrive late without anyone noticing. The employee working in a supportive non-punitive environment will seek to gain the praise of his superiors he respects rather than to fool his overbearing boss by breaking the rules and getting away with it.
Cop/Citizen The theme occurs yet again in the case of law enforcement. When our leaders invent rules that are vague, subject to interpretation, contrary to common sense and well established facts and which are routinely broken without consequence by those in charge of enforcement, it undermines the respect police need to function well. Without respect for the police, citizens avoid rather than engage them.
Mod/Online Community And finally, I see this theme repeat in online communities where mods are appointed by fiat and are not elected or otherwise held accountable to the population they oversee and who almost never even bother to post in the forums they're charged with monitoring. They gain compliance the easy way: by making banning and thread closures the rule rather than the exception.
It forces compliance, yes, but in the end, it breeds resentment and undermines the health of the community when absent moderators step in at their leisure more often to close threads and dole out bannings than to open original threads of discussion or participate in an existing one.
What do you think?
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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fireworks_god
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Diploid]
#5664775 - 05/23/06 02:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said: Mod/Online Community And finally, I see this theme repeat in online communities where mods are appointed by fiat and are not elected or otherwise held accountable to the population they oversee and who almost never even bother to post in the forums they're charged with monitoring. They gain compliance the easy way: by making banning and thread closures the rule rather than the exception.
It forces compliance, yes, but in the end, it breeds resentment and undermines the health of the community when absent moderators step in at their leisure more often to close threads and dole out bannings than to open original threads of discussion or participate in an existing one.
What do you think?
Makes sense, but I think that this forum in particular is probably the least moderated forum on the website, and that is the way it should be. We manage ourselves quite effectively.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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kotik
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diploid for mod?
-------------------- No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.
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Diploid
Cuban


Registered: 01/09/03
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We manage ourselves quite effectively.
We do it the right way, by consensus through peer-pressure, not enforcement.
-------------------- Republican Values: 1) You can't get married to your spouse who is the same sex as you. 2) You can't have an abortion no matter how much you don't want a child. 3) You can't have a certain plant in your possession or you'll get locked up with a rapist and a murderer. 4) We need a smaller, less-intrusive government.
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Silversoul
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Diploid]
#5664858 - 05/23/06 02:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Did something happen in MR&P?
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Diploid]
#5664887 - 05/23/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd just like to point out what thing:
While a child is not suposed to obey the parents blindly, it must learn its limitations. If you let a child decide everything, pretty soon it will think it has more abilities that it actually has. People in general have to learn that they are generally stupid and have to consult and think deep before acting, and learn to listen. That goes both for children and parents
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
People in general have to learn that they are generally stupid
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Icelander
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Diploid]
#5664978 - 05/23/06 03:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Maybe it's that simple. Let me ask you this. I am involved with a young person who because of their early childhood relationships is resistant to any dicipline whatsoever. They believe that they are entitled to be taken care of and that others needs do not matter too much. Neither dicipline nor unconditional support seems to dent their pattern of behavior. Now Diploid, how do you deal with this?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Posts: 37,532
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665010 - 05/23/06 03:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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the tiger is a wild thing -(undisciplined) it's wildness is beautiful and it is alone because of the rage, a beautiful raging and stomping and stalking. the stripes also beautiful and scary but alone. to be with people it must act more like a lamb but remember that each person is also a tiger. respecting the spirit in each other we need to see the tiger in ourselves.
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_ 🧠_
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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I think you have raised girls.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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OldWoodSpecter
waiting


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Veritas]
#5665059 - 05/23/06 03:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said:
Quote:
People in general have to learn that they are generally stupid
well aren't they? I mean an avarage man out there has 3 brain centers: 1. beer center 2. sports center 3. fuck center
sometimes they get a short circuit in the brain and develop some emotions and thoughts, but the drunk leukocytes in the blood quickly destroy those parts of the brain.
The avarage women, well, they marry the avarage man.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
Edited by OldWoodSpecter (05/23/06 03:28 PM)
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Methinks you over-generalize. 
While those of average intelligence may not compare to the shining brightness of your brain-wattage, they are a far cry from 'stupid.' Perhaps "unmotivated" or "dumbed-down" would be a more accurate description?
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Veritas]
#5665147 - 05/23/06 03:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Methinks you over-generalize. 
While those of average intelligence may not compare to the shining brightness of your brain-wattage, they are a far cry from 'stupid.' Perhaps "unmotivated" or "dumbed-down" would be a more accurate description?
Well maybe I'm living in a country with below avarage IQ, or something (apologies to Tesla) but that's the impression I've got. I hope americans are smarter than that, because they run the world, but then again, what I see on TV in american shows really makes me realise people are same everywhere, even have the same habits, way of thinking etc.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
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Don't judge all Americans by what is on TV...I think.
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leery11
I Tell You What!

Registered: 06/24/05
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Quote:
OldWoodSpecter said:
Quote:
Veritas said: Methinks you over-generalize. 
While those of average intelligence may not compare to the shining brightness of your brain-wattage, they are a far cry from 'stupid.' Perhaps "unmotivated" or "dumbed-down" would be a more accurate description?
Well maybe I'm living in a country with below avarage IQ, or something (apologies to Tesla) but that's the impression I've got. I hope americans are smarter than that, because they run the world, but then again, what I see on TV in american shows really makes me realise people are same everywhere, even have the same habits, way of thinking etc.
the tv is people's unconscious mind.
people are indeed stupid. stupid means that you are smart but choose not to be. people are stupid for watching tv all the time, for getting extremely drunk when they know it's not right and this night they need to stay sober or just have a few beers.
for having unprotected sex because it's cool even though they know 1/4 of all college students has an STD (which must indicate some level of stupidity since college kids are edcuated on how to prevent sexual disease?)
people drive stupidly and tailgate even though they know it takes several car distances to stop in time. they KNOW but they don't act upon it.
people vote for John Bushy or George W Kerry even though they know both are a poor choice and that this nation's voting system is useless unless third parties (and fourth and fifth) are brought into power.
people are stupid. they are stupid precisely because they have smart intellects, basic and decent levels of education, but often times fail to act responsibly.
now this is a very intolerant thing to say. becasue this is just one side of the coin. this is the bad side of the coin. it's not always this way.
but..... you know what. the only function of the tv is to make us stupid........ at one point the Simpsons was satire..... you'd look at Homer and go "what an idiot" now you look at Homer and you imitate him.... you gorge into a bag of chips and go MMMMMMM and do the Homer voice and worship TV just like he does.
and yet HE'S STILL ON THE AIR...... it's remarkable that the Simpsons has lasted so long.....
it's remarkable that things like Deal or No Deal are entertainment. ooooh pick boxes with money in them! No skill involved! At least you could have trivia or some sort of talent ..... in play ?
-----------------------------------------------
I'm going to have to let go of all this intolerance eventually though but hey.... anyway...... it's everything wrong with America in the box of everyone's house.
The thing about personal responibility is we don't have any because we aren't treated like adults. We let authorities make every decision for us and there is little room for dissent or political activism in the mainstreamed culture. If you take a child and make all decisions for it the child will live in your home well into his 30s.
That's kind of how us Americans are.
If you let a child be an equal, for the most part, but set up reasonable boundaries which are never strict and solid, rather.... tolerant and caring..... and you say "I know you want candy but you cannot have any right now. We will let you pick some out later if you behave." or something like that.... then the child has some choice.
The child also has limitations, but they are not a cross to carry... unlike the limitations of living in this society.
-------------------- I am the MacDaddy of Heimlich County, I play it Straight Up Yo! ....I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected enough to step aside and weep like a widow, to feel inspired, to fathom the power, to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain, to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human...... Om Namah Shivaya, I tell you What!
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Veritas]
#5665242 - 05/23/06 03:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Don't judge all Americans by what is on TV...I think.
Hey, I also talk with you people every day, I probably more talk with americans than my own people during the day.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Don't judge all Americans by what is posted on the Shroomery, then.
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OldWoodSpecter
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Veritas]
#5665261 - 05/23/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Don't judge all Americans by what is posted on the Shroomery, then.
Other forums, I ment.
-------------------- I descend upon your earth from the skies I command your very souls you unbelievers Bring before me what is mine
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Diploid]
#5665278 - 05/23/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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fear and respect are often confused to be the same thing. They are not the same.
There are some people who have no fear and some people who have no respect.
One who has no fear cannot be controlled by it. One who has no respect is a fool who doesn't realize he is a prisoner.
Thus, repect others, but don't fear them.
Fear is the mind killer.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665289 - 05/23/06 04:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: Maybe it's that simple. Let me ask you this. I am involved with a young person who because of their early childhood relationships is resistant to any dicipline whatsoever. They believe that they are entitled to be taken care of and that others needs do not matter too much. Neither dicipline nor unconditional support seems to dent their pattern of behavior. Now Diploid, how do you deal with this?
perhaps the one you are involved with is actually teaching you a lesson 
you just don't want to hear it.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5665528 - 05/23/06 05:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't think that hasn't crossed my mind. And what is that lesson?
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
Edited by Icelander (05/23/06 05:06 PM)
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Huehuecoyotl
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665644 - 05/23/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Let me ask you this. I am involved with a young person who because of their early childhood relationships is resistant to any dicipline whatsoever. They believe that they are entitled to be taken care of and that others needs do not matter too much. Neither dicipline nor unconditional support seems to dent their pattern of behavior. Now Diploid, how do you deal with this? "
Be the water dripping on the stone. Present a positive example...always lead from the front....never the rear. When you say no mean it. Never go back on your word...particularly if that word is "No". Be infinitely patient, but take zero shit. Find common ground. Engage in a common activity with him. Martial arts lessons would be good. Put aside your personal prejudices. Do not baby them under any circumstance. Be ruthless. In other words be a warrior and do not let your immpecability slip in his presence. It will take time, maybe a long time, but it will work. Consistancy is the key.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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Huehuecoyotl
Fading Slowly


Registered: 06/13/04
Posts: 10,685
Loc: On the Border
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If the previous has no effect....slip a rattlesnake into his bed at night.
-------------------- "A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,532
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665712 - 05/23/06 05:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said: I think you have raised girls.
two true
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_ 🧠_
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


Registered: 03/15/05
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I get along famously with girls, and maybe that's why I have boys.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DoctorJ


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665942 - 05/23/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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you know why I don't have you on ignore, Icelander?
because I'm looking for something.
I'm looking for hope and faith.
Free your mind, bright young child.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5665952 - 05/23/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's no answer to my question. And is off topic.
Cut the wise guy crap and say something.
-------------------- "Don't believe everything you think". -Anom. " All that lives was born to die"-Anom. With much wisdom comes much sorrow, The more knowledge, the more grief. Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665957 - 05/23/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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mod edit: No flaming. If it was an example of the topic, please make that more clear in the future.
Edited by Annom (05/24/06 02:41 AM)
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: Icelander]
#5665975 - 05/23/06 06:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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see how I used respect first, then resorted to fear?
fear is obviously the only thing you respect.
mod edit: no flaming
Edited by Annom (05/24/06 02:41 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5667268 - 05/24/06 12:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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fear like in a woman scorned?
stick with respect even if you get no results use the patience of job.
fear is plain goofy
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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you don't like scary movies?
why so close-minded
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5667296 - 05/24/06 12:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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the preta is a buddhist term for hungry ghost. the preta realm is not a pleasant place. you can come out of hunger without scaring the other monkeys from their nibbles. even gollum can come out of the fear complex. gentleness is the physics of love contradiction and paradox fuel some jumps when necessary but you don't need to keep jumping when you arrive at a nice place.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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every place is pleasant from the right perspective.
except earth, in its current state. This place really blows right now.
Thats why I'm sitting here ruining my vacation typing shit I shouldn't have to say to you people on the internet right now.
Of course, I am and always have been a writer, so I am kind of married to that job, so to speak. I don't understand why everyone is so afraid of writers. We really try to be good people.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5667372 - 05/24/06 01:05 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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c'mon, earth is excellent though it suffers the fanatics, the oil families, the hegemonies but it is totally excellent just as it is even in its suffering of the goofies - it is a great example of a system that accommodates change, flux - even kareoke.
have a nice vacation from those compelling pharos and their lovely pyramids of doom, they have made you maudlin.
--------------------
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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how will it accomodate change when the sun explodes?
that could happen whenever. ya never know
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ManianFH
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5667587 - 05/24/06 03:32 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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fear vs. respect
or punishment vs. facilitation?
I think any (unsavory) action by another person might be better dealt with through the understanding that they're dealing with their environment using whatever coping mechanism they've grown up with or been the most free to utilize.
Punishment is old school - its a lesson in black and white Respect is close to the word but i think its more like
facilitating open communication between the care taker and one who may be acting inappropriately (by whoevers standards??) so that the person may learn through a non threatening example what a better action might be.
Its about understanding any action and trying to see what motivated it, rather than becoming angry that it happened, or feeling like a reprimand is necessary - thats the easy way out.... product of laziness? quick fix society? who knows..
i ramble ....
but ill never want to use violence with kids - or time out chairs or taking toys away as punishment - that seems like a wrong message to me... even if its the easy way to get the reponse i want from my children.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
Edited by mickdawg666 (05/24/06 03:36 AM)
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: ManianFH]
#5667620 - 05/24/06 04:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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have you ever seen Matriculated? The last short in the Animatrix?
sounds to me like what you are talking about. Thats what Hell would be like if it were up to me. Or at least one version of hell. There are many hells, because you guys keep making so many of them.
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dorkus
don't look back
Registered: 04/12/04
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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5667643 - 05/24/06 04:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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A huge, rough samurai once went to see a little monk, hoping to acquire the secrets of the universe.
"Monk," he said, in a voice accustomed to instant obedience. "teach me about heaven and hell."
The little monk looked up at the mighty warrior in silence. Then, after a moment, he said to the samurai with utter disdain, "Teach YOU about heaven and hell? I couldn't teach you about anything. You're dirty. You smell. Your blade is rusty. you're a disgrace, an embarrassment to the samurai class. Get out of my sight at once. I can't stand you!"
The samurai was furious. He began to shake all over from the anger that raced through him. A red flush spread over his face; he was speechless with rage. Quickly, menacingly, he pulled out his sword and raised it above his head, preparing to slay the monk.
"That's hell." said the little monk quietly.
The samurai was overwhelmed. Stunned. The compassion and surrender of this little man who had offered his life to give this teaching about hell! He slowly lowered his sword, filled with gratitude, and for reasons he could not explain his heart became suddenly peaceful.
"And that's heaven," said the monk softly.
-Zen story
You so often seem angry, Doctor Justice.
Edited by dr_mandelbrot (05/24/06 04:55 AM)
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ManianFH
living in perverty


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Re: Fear and Respect [Re: DoctorJ]
#5667657 - 05/24/06 05:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: sounds to me like what you are talking about. Thats what Hell would be like if it were up to me. Or at least one version of hell. There are many hells, because you guys keep making so many of them.
hell to me is like - people having to do tedious tasks forever - like picking up and arragning billions of needles without sleep until you go insane - and then get tortured for not doing your task.. shit like that
i could see in some way how being in open communication relationships could be a hell to some people - that would be interesting to see how long it would take for one to crack.
-------------------- notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... " ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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