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InvisibleHippie3
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coir versus vermiculite casings
    #5661377 - 05/22/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

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Offlinemakaveli8x8
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5661392 - 05/22/06 07:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

shoulda broke that cake in half to make it a fair trial, right side pinned first(so thats good for pins) but then the cake put all its energy there. so you don't know which one provides more mushys or bigger.<--im a noob too so maybe this is another crazy post of mine.


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: makaveli8x8]
    #5661415 - 05/22/06 07:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i believe what i see.
why did the coir side pin first ?
btw
that's two different cakes, not all just the same one.
yet both pinned in coir first.
besides
that 'put all it's energy there'
is nonsense
else all cakes and casings would just fruit in one spot.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5661550 - 05/22/06 07:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Straight verm makes a lousy casing layer IMHO! How about a side by side coir vs. peat based casings? Oh wait it's already been done. All in all a nice side by side Hippy! :thumbup:


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Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: hyphae]
    #5663067 - 05/23/06 05:38 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i'm thinking that
the old 'double end casing' of vermiculite on ends of pf cakes
needs to be modified to
include coir.


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InvisibleMrMaddHatter
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5663081 - 05/23/06 05:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What about rolling in wet coir? Don't know how well it would stick to the cake though.

Just a thought.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5663084 - 05/23/06 05:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I have always used a 50/50+ peat based casing on all cakes for awesome results but as for the tek simplicity requires verm thats the whole reasoning behind the PFTek well that and nearly guaranteed success.





--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: hyphae]
    #5663113 - 05/23/06 06:15 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

as for the tek simplicity requires verm




simplicity is great.
and i didn't mean change the cake formula,
just the DE casing,

double end casing
and in that regard
coir is just as 'simple' as vermiculite
and often easier to find.


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Offlinedudefromaz
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5663315 - 05/23/06 08:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

1 Quik question...Do you need to neutralize the PH with the coir casings?


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: dudefromaz]
    #5663340 - 05/23/06 08:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

no


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Offlinespacebutler
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5663501 - 05/23/06 10:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"besides that 'put all it's energy there' is nonsense else all cakes and casings would just fruit in one spot."

Yeah I agree, but I think there starts to be some uneven nutrient/energy distribution as mushrooms grow bigger, as long as the mycelium networks were connected. I think it would have been better to grow a mycelium network, then seperate it and fruit, so they can't pull nutrients from each other (if this is indeed the case).


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5663804 - 05/23/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hippie3 said:
Quote:

as for the tek simplicity requires verm




simplicity is great.
and i didn't mean change the cake formula,
just the DE casing,

double end casing
and in that regard
coir is just as 'simple' as vermiculite
and often easier to find.



What I was referring to Hippy is that verm comes sterile no prep needed bro coir on the other hand is far from sterile and should be sterilized/pasturized know what I'm sayin? :thumbup: But ya that would be an excellent option.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineSynaethesia
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: hyphae]
    #5665916 - 05/23/06 06:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Didn't blue helix find that coir/ despite lots of success and use/ is actually a horrible casing material because the mycelium will eat instead of simply colonizing it, thus making it substrate and not casing.


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Synaethesia]
    #5665962 - 05/23/06 06:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

StoneInFocus said:
Didn't blue helix find that coir/ despite lots of success and use/ is actually a horrible casing material because the mycelium will eat instead of simply colonizing it, thus making it substrate and not casing.



Yep with pics too! This has been my experience too.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineLegalize247
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: hyphae]
    #5666245 - 05/23/06 08:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Those are some fatty pins. Nice


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Legalize247]
    #5667695 - 05/24/06 06:09 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

despite lots of success and use/ is actually horrible




LOL !!!!!
bullshit i say,
success is success.
coir kicks ass.
just blend it with vermiculite,
same as is done with peat,
and the overlay problem is solved
well enough for massive flushes,
despite what certain 'experts' say...


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Edited by Hippie3 (05/24/06 06:21 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5667814 - 05/24/06 07:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Of course you can get nice flushes of cubensis from coir. It's an awesome substrate material, right up there with horse manure in fact. It is not however, suited as a casing material unless it's cut by way more than half with verm. The same results could be obtained by 'casing' with horse manure mixed with verm. The fact is, once your coir 'casing' gets fully colonized, it is no longer a casing layer, but a second layer of substrate. However, cubes are so darned easy to grow, they grow on almost anything and don't require a casing layer. That's why a good strain will fruit from a coir substrate, but the fruits will be larger if there's a way to add moisture to the casing layer, which becomes difficult if it's fuly colonized.

I find it most disingenuous that you call 'bullshit' to those who disagree, while cherry picking a couple of pictures of success out of the hundreds of pictures of failures and fully colonized, non-pinning coir casings we see folks asking for help with here and on the other sites every day, including your own. Such does not prove coir is superior. The experienced growers who try their best to steer the new folks in the right direction have reached their conclusions after years of research and experimentation. If coir is such a great casing material, let's see a few successful coir 'casings' on Agaricus, shaggy manes, enoki or pan cyans.
RR


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Offlinedudefromaz
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5667819 - 05/24/06 07:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Of course you can get nice flushes of cubensis from coir. It's an awesome substrate material, right up there with horse manure in fact. It is not however, suited as a casing material unless it's cut by way more than half with verm. The same results could be obtained by 'casing' with horse manure mixed with verm. The fact is, once your coir 'casing' gets fully colonized, it is no longer a casing layer, but a second layer of substrate. However, cubes are so darned easy to grow, they grow on almost anything and don't require a casing layer. That's why a good strain will fruit from a coir substrate, but the fruits will be larger if there's a way to add moisture to the casing layer, which becomes difficult if it's fuly colonized.

I find it most disingenuous that you call 'bullshit' to those who disagree, while cherry picking a couple of pictures of success out of the hundreds of pictures of failures and fully colonized, non-pinning coir casings we see folks asking for help with here and on the other sites every day, including your own. Such does not prove coir is superior. The experienced growers who try their best to steer the new folks in the right direction have reached their conclusions after years of research and experimentation. If coir is such a great casing material, let's see a few successful coir 'casings' on Agaricus, shaggy manes, enoki or pan cyans.
RR




word


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5668086 - 05/24/06 10:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

lol
no thanks,
i'm not going to play a game
where you make the definitions
and set the rules.
:cool:
but
i will show another picture
of a coir casing,
i guess he never heard
that it was so terrible.


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OfflineBabo911
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5668202 - 05/24/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

what is that a DT spawned to 100% coir? Or did you add somehting?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Babo911]
    #5668263 - 05/24/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Excellent picture there hip to help illustrate my point, thank you. Note how the substrate is fully colonized? That means the coir is not serving as a casing, but as a substrate. We all know cubes don't require a casing to pin and fruit, and a great strain will pin very well without one. Coir as shown above, makes an excellent substrate. If it weren't so darned expensive compared to manure which is free, it would be a substrate of choice.
RR


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OfflineHippieChick
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5668310 - 05/24/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I even disagree with you on this Hippie .
I used coir exclusively for over a year , and got quite a few awesome first fluhes , but I also got awesome first flushes without a casing layer , so what's that proof . I also wound up with quite a lot of contams , mostly cobweb and the green , before the third .

Not with 50/50+ .

Awesome first flushes



followed by many , at least four , additional nice flushes .



followed by fourth and fifth



Not with coir :thumbdown: Tends to contams way too quick for me . I'm not a one hit wonder fan :wink:

Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5668316 - 05/24/06 11:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Does anyone know if Coir is available from B&Q ?
Also in the UK i cant find peat moss or potting soil, just compost!
And no 1/2 pint jars!
grr


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5668348 - 05/24/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

It's a shame some do not actually realize what the issue here is. For those who want to know cubies do not need a casing layer but they do usually flush better and heres the big word CONSISTANTLY with one. The point here is the fact Hippy's successful because a casing layer is not needed for decent flushes he simply added a different substrate on top of another that is the point here guys not a casing layer this is what truely understanding mycology is all about and does separate the more experienced mycologists from the less experienced growers. Excellent flush BTW Hippy was that a coir blend or straight? Keep an open mind people understanding is the key to success.


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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InvisibleRoadkillM
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: hyphae]
    #5668478 - 05/24/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Another thing to mention is that some things work for some and not for others.



You don't need a casing layer with a bulk substrate of horse poo.

You will get a better pin set using a casing layer.



60/40 Verm and Coco Coir casing works fine...I've used it 100's of times.
The main problem most people have with it is waiting too long to put it in the fruiting chamber.
As soon as the mycelium is reaching through the top of the casing layer it should be put into the fruiting chamber...immediately!~

The 60/40 casing tek was made as an alternate casing layer method...
Plus I liked the color indicator that the coir gives off to let you know if the casing layer is dry or moist.
I never said it was the best...but its not terrible like some people are trying to make it out to be.
It seems to be getting alot of flak lately.

If you tried the 60/40 and it didn't work for you...
you must have did something wrong!~
You probably used too much Coco Coir...or you didn't fruit the son of a bitch on time.
Or you are talking out your ass and have never tried it!~
:smirk:

Oh and instead of using a casing layer...try using wax paper on top of your colonized horse poo(bulk substrate) like RR suggests.
The wax paper will make a microclimate just like a casing layer will.
The only difference that I see is you won't have the moisture from the casing layer...the moisture will come out of the substrate during the flush.
So be sure and dunk after each flush.


tc


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Roadkill]
    #5668853 - 05/24/06 01:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

to me
it's just quibbling over technicalities that really do not matter.
call it whatever you want,
a rose by any other name is still sweet
so if you want
call it substrate
who really cares.
just don't wig out when someone else calls it a casing,
it ain't that big of a deal.
what works, works.
who really gives an F what you call it.
here's more
coir .


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InvisibleHippie3
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: HippieChick]
    #5668904 - 05/24/06 01:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

hippie chick,
another perhaps crucial factor
is that you are now more experienced
and so your contam rate is lower
and not just because you switched to peat.

coir doesn't cause contamination,
other contaminants do.
neither is coir particularly prone
to contamination,
i've left it wet in buckets for weeks on end
and nothing grew on it, ever.


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Invisiblemskip23
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Re: coir versus vermiculite casings [Re: Hippie3]
    #5669062 - 05/24/06 03:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Hippie3 said:
here's more
coir .





:thumbup:  LMFAO!!!


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