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 Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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 Guess Swami's Sign 
#565821 - 02/28/02 12:43 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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As you may have guessed, I put zero stock in Astrology, but am ready to be convinced. As everyone has an 8.5% chance (1/12) of being correct, what would be a fair measurement of success? Should only "certified" (by whom? they don't even agree with one another!) astrologers be allowed to participate or should I average everyone's guess?
There should be enough data in my posts for any "real" astrologer to figure it out...
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (02/28/02 12:44 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#565835 - 02/28/02 01:07 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm guessing Leo
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 Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,480
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#565846 - 02/28/02 01:13 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I saw a segment on 20/20 years ago where the reporter went into a college classroom and had each person list their birthdate and time. He took all the info to a professional astrologist and had a reading done for each student. He then took all the readings back to the classroom the next week and passed them out to the students. After all the students had read their reading he asked them how accurate it was. Every person in the classroom was a believer. The students were all amazed at how correct their readings were. While everybody was getting all excited he asked them to compare their readings to each other. Every single reading was identical. He tricked the class and handed out a single reading for some serial killer that was in jail for killing and eating people (Jeffery Dalmer I think). Needless to say, the class was fairly shocked.
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Just another spore in the wind.
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djchilxxn
Midnight Toker
Registered: 09/02/01
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 Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Seuss]
#565985 - 02/28/02 03:15 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I saw that in biology class. heh, I thought it was funny.
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i like ham
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Adamist
ℚṲℰϟ✞ЇѺℵ ℛ∃Åʟḯ†У
 
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 Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#565993 - 02/28/02 03:22 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Sagittarius or maybe Virgo
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 { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
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Anonymous
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566122 - 02/28/02 05:35 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm going to rule out the water signs - pisces, cancer, or scorpio...
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redworm
member
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: ]
#566401 - 02/28/02 10:55 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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heh
I was thinking Leo as this post was loading, and shroomism's response made me nearly certain 
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We are all, infinite and together.
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MAIA
World-BridgerKartikeya (DftS)
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566569 - 03/01/02 06:06 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Libra
Peace,
MAIA
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Spiritual being, living a human experience ... The Shroomery Mandala
 
Use, do not abuse; neither abstinence nor excess ever renders man happy.
Voltaire
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ZEPH
member
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566611 - 03/01/02 07:34 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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i guess scorpio  peace
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Tannis
ZoneTrooper
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 Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566668 - 03/01/02 08:44 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm no good at guessing and your field is really clouded with an attitude of "I'll show those stupid mother fuckers...."
I don't see anything but the cloud, and some little boy which I think is you.....
Nothing else....
I guess you showed us believers.......
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Anonymous
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Tannis]
#566682 - 03/01/02 08:56 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm no good at guessing and your field is really clouded with an attitude of "I'll show those stupid mother fuckers...."
Get used to that cloud.. its always there
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Tannis]
#566826 - 03/01/02 11:35 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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...and your field is really clouded with an attitude of "I'll show those stupid mother fuckers...."
Superstition (i.e. astrology) is not related at all to intelligence. And astrology is not related to one's "field", but rather one's characteristics, so if I indeed had a "clouded field" that would be a major clue to my sign.
Then you top it off with an obscenity and try to attach my name to it, something that I have not done in over 600 posts. What a "clever" propaganda technique for trying to inspire negativity.
I don't see anything but the cloud, and some little boy which I think is you.....
Once again, astrology is not supposed to be related to "seeing " anything, that is the province of the clairvoyant. I guess by calling me immature ( a little boy) that mysteriously makes you somehow more mature.
Nothing else....
How limited! Guess my "blocking" powers are much stronger than your "viewing" powers..
I guess you showed us believers.......
If I were a believer and you were my spokesman, I would be very disappointed.
Like many believer responses, there is usually attack or excuse. But never, ever, any tiny piece of evidence for any claimed paranormal ability.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: ]
#566831 - 03/01/02 11:37 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Get used to that cloud.. its always there
Yes, but what kind is it? Stratus, cumulous, nimbus...? You gotta give me props for consistency though.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Anonymous
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566840 - 03/01/02 11:49 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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heh, I'd say its a cumulonimbus. Sometimes stratus.
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Anonymous
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566843 - 03/01/02 11:50 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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So what is your sign? I think enough people have guessed. Either way what does this test prove? Even if I got it right I don't think that would prove anything.
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Tannis
ZoneTrooper
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#566999 - 03/01/02 02:38 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Good come back..... I just wanted to shake your tree a little... I think you did a great job of proving my point and yours! It's all about belief.....
Nothing personal to you brother, didn't mean to attach your name to anything----I was tired when posting and typed before I thought..... I'm human.... imperfect and I still can't "guess" anything....
I think what I was trying to say was that it seems as though you set out to disprove any possibilities of this working and that closes you off to interpretation....
I respect you and your belief and you present a good arguement....
No hard feelings I hope....
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AbstractSoul
member
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567027 - 03/01/02 03:04 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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In reply to:
Like many believer responses, there is usually attack or excuse. But never, ever, any tiny piece of evidence for any claimed paranormal ability.
this is very true. i myself am somewhere between believer and skeptic and the only person i see making any convincing arguements in all of the posts here is Swami. when i say somewhere between believer and skeptic, it is probably leaning more to the believer side, as i have have given everything a fair chance- from tarot cards to astral projection to practicing magick- all of which i have had what i believe to be success in. but still a lot of the stuff discussed here just seems completely outrageous to me.
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house is a spiritual thing
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Silent_One
newbie
Registered: 12/11/01
Posts: 30
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567114 - 03/01/02 05:01 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Leo or Sagittarius
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: ]
#567172 - 03/01/02 06:18 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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So what is your sign? I think enough people have guessed. Either way what does this test prove? Even if I got it right I don't think that would prove anything.
If everyone got it right that would indeed be indicative of something. If a few got it right, that would mean little, as chance expects a few to get it right.
However, if NO ONE got it right, that most certainly means something!
As a sensitive, loyal, introverted, creative, blah, blah, blah - Cancer, I may have to eliminate Astrology as a valid field of research.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Tannis]
#567175 - 03/01/02 06:24 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I think what I was trying to say was that it seems as though you set out to disprove any possibilities of this working and that closes you off to interpretation....
Nice try, Tannis. There is absolutely NO interpretation. Everyone here gets to read the responses. They are either correct or not. There is NOTHING to interpret. Now someone could say that I am lying, but there is no point to that. I could send in my driver's license for verification, but won't for very obvious reasons.
No hard feelings I hope....
No prob, but get into the ring with Swami and be guaranteed of a good fight.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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dizZy_bOy
stranger thanyou
Registered: 11/16/01
Posts: 206
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567414 - 03/01/02 11:38 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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you sign is only a basis for your personality, you life may shape it in other ways if the experiences are drastic enough.
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567547 - 03/02/02 05:32 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Roll a 6 sided die 10 times, don't expect to see the pyramid.
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Tannis
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567650 - 03/02/02 10:38 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'll keep the gloves ready old buddy.....
Until next time.....
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Tannis
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567663 - 03/02/02 11:01 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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So you don't like interpretation, ok, care to play a game (for clarification)?
Now put the gloves down for a minute and everybody go back to their corners....
Lets pretend that Swami is right and has all the answers. And lets say that Tannis and some other folks out here just don't get it and waste belief in something of no value like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny.
Remember, this is just a game to get some clarification.
If you are right and we are wrong why do you need to convince us that our belief has no validity to it. Wouldn't you be like an adult looking over children who can't and don't know any better.
If right is right, and truth is self evident, it doesn't need to be defended...it just is--- no matter what anyone says...
Ah-oh I think I heard the bell go off....
Seriously, though, help me understand. You obviously have strong convictions and beliefs but I feel that if I state an opinion that is slightly different than yours that's going to result in a fight. I'm I getting the wrong picture?
Let me explain my temperment...I state my opinion and it doesn't matter whether anyone agrees or disagrees with it. Its just the way I see things.
Well, its been fun but my mommy says I have to come in and take my bath......
I look forward to your response and hope it helps me understand better where you're coming from...
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alphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567775 - 03/02/02 01:31 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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i also rule out water signs... and place my bet on virgo (as a more skeptic and scientific oriented sign) but you cannot really judge because in astrology there are more factors, and possibly more important factors than only the place of the sun in the horoscope. As as skeptic i have looked into astrology and was surprised by the lack of SERIOUS investigation on the part of skeptics. I don't see factor analysis or complex combinations of factors factored in. So if someone is saying astrology is humbug based on research don't believe him. Keep in mind i'm not talking about folklore astrology. Swami is also aiming at folklore astrology with his question - so he has to refrase his question to get further along the real skeptics path to truth.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Tannis]
#567986 - 03/02/02 06:59 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Lets pretend that Swami is right and has all the answers.
That has never been my claim at all.
If you are right and we are wrong why do you need to convince us that our belief has no validity to it.
Your question is valid, but actually has it backwards. I have been asking people that made claims of paranormal ability or phenomena to convince me of their stance.
This has been answered many times, probably before you joined in. There are 3 main reasons:
1. Curiosity - is there something out there that exists beyond ordinary reality that occasionally crosses over?
2. In 30 years of exploration e-v-e-r-y single claim has turned up empty. I want to know why people take outlandish stories at face-value with no deep investigation.
3. Rage against superstition, con-men and fraud.
I had an acquaintence die in the Heaven's Gate cult.
I have seen my family torn apart when my born-again brother started throwing his judgements about us sinners around.
I watched an elderly neighbor give away her life-savings to greedy, self-serving televangelists.
I watch more and more Americans being jailed for ingesting plants because of erroneous beliefs. There was a bill in the US Congress a few years back that was just about reviewing the efficacy of the WOD. The bill failed to pass! They were afraid to even look!
Now while most here are against the WOD, it is the very SAME lack of critical thinking and examination that causes people to believe that mushroom growers should serve long prison sentences or to believe in astrology. This is called blind acceptance of what is presented to you or you can call it "belief".
I would always rather know than believe, if possible.
In hundreds of posts, the debate always go to
A. Silence
B. Personal Attack
C. Change of subject
D. Some nonsense about how my being a disbeliever screws things up. (Wow! Now I am being attributed with great power. LOL!)
Most of my valid points are distinctly side-stepped.
If right is right, and truth is self evident,
Truth may be self-evident to some people that can look at all the data in an unbiased manner, but that is rare.
it doesn't need to be defended...it just is--- no matter what anyone says...
This is a naive position. Women are equal to men, blacks are equal to whites, gays to straights, Jews to Aryans, etc. These are self-evident to some, but are positions that need to be heavily defended. Many have died to bring these truths to light. Then there are still some on this board that will not agree that these basics are true.
You obviously have strong convictions and beliefs
Not in the way that that is normally meant. People will say "Oh Swami, your disbelief in Astrology is just another form of belief." This is nonsense. My non-belief is based on research and experiment. Most belief in Astrology (or whatever the pet subject is) is based on heresay and false perception.
but I feel that if I state an opinion that is slightly different than yours that's going to result in a fight. I'm I getting the wrong picture?
Opinion is one thing. A false, invalid, contradictory or unsubstantiated statement is another.
If you say, "Hey, I prefer chocolate ice cream to vanilla.", what can I challenge? But if you say that chocolate is clearly superior in taste to vanilla then I might question your statement.
Battle for the sake of battle is rather pointless. What if I came on here boasting about a perpetual motion machine that I had invented? You would probably either ignore my post or ask to see blueprints and a working explanantion. That is what I do when some one says that they can clearly demonstrate telekinesis, ESP, Astrology, etc.
To date all have failed even rudimentary testing yet millions of people believe. I want people to either wake up or back up their claims.
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (03/05/02 08:36 AM)
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Lallafa
p_g monocle
Registered: 04/13/01
Posts: 2,598
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#567994 - 03/02/02 07:13 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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cancer
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my tax dollars going to more hits of acid for charles manson
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Lallafa]
#568008 - 03/02/02 07:27 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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And lallafa wins the prize!
You are too funny; perhaps even more sarcastic than me. LOL!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#568236 - 03/03/02 01:39 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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ignored me.. you bastard.
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ArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#568332 - 03/03/02 04:45 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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what did he win? Is Cancer one of the cardinal signs?
My first thought was that.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Jared]
#568708 - 03/03/02 02:50 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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ignored me.. you bastard.
Pobrecito.
Roll a 6 sided die 10 times, don't expect to see the pyramid.
OK, I don't.
Feel better now?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Duh! Seeing as I posted my sign ten messages ago, I guess he won because he can read and remember - LOL!
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: dizZy_bOy]
#568868 - 03/03/02 05:27 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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you sign is only a basis for your personality
My sign is the basis for nothing at all, but ancient superstition and fuzzy thinking.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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ArCh_TemPlaR
enthusiast
Registered: 07/15/01
Posts: 200
Last seen: 21 years, 11 months
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#569022 - 03/03/02 09:02 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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bwahah.. I thought differently.. Lallafa may have only bothered to read your first post and 'guessed' wiithout reading the rest of the posts.
you posted your sign already, then why would he/she bother guessing it? sarcarsm? haha alright then
either case.. nothing provocative came of this..
Edited by ArCh_TemPlaR (03/03/02 09:23 PM)
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Sclorch
Clyster
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 4,805
Loc: On the Brink of Madness
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#569033 - 03/03/02 09:15 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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>Guess my "blocking" powers are much stronger than your "viewing" powers..<
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
>Like many believer responses, there is usually attack or excuse. But never, ever, any tiny piece of evidence for any claimed paranormal ability. <
They're just pissed because they were raised in a Christianity-based society (of course there will be some dipshite who will claim that they were unaffected... blah blah, here's a pre-emptive "shaddup!"). So, they grabbed onto astrology. I can't really blame them... wait, yes I can. WAKE UP!!! You're just replacing one BS belief system for another. It's not that hard to think for yourself, really. You don't NEED a system. Have a little faith in yourself and give critical thinking a shot.
>>you sign is only a basis for your personality, you life may shape it in other ways if the experiences are drastic enough. <<
A bullshit excuse statement if I ever heard one.
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Note: In desperate need of a cure...
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Tannis
ZoneTrooper
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#570352 - 03/05/02 08:06 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the insight into your motivation....I appreciate it.
Now would probably be a good time to say that I don't place any particular belief in astrology.....meaning that I don't get up in the morning and check my forcast to see what kind of day I'm going to have. The thing that attracted me to the post and initally set off my "match to gasoline kind of temper" was that the post isn't talking about astrology.....its talking about "guessing" your sign and astrology isn't about guessing. I began to get the impression that you were attacking a belief system that you didn't have a working knowledge of.....
I guess my question at this point is: Do you understand how it works? ( Even if you disbelieve in it....) I didn't see that in the post found it to be upsetting.
Please understand---This is not an attempt to discredit you or anything you are saying----but I still see an attack on a belief system but it is not discussing the actual system of belief. I see an intellectual arguement based on some past negative experiences.
Granted----you are right in cautioning everyone......and I'm very sorry at the loss of your friend......
Sorry----Have to continue this later----public access computer and my time is up....sorry......
A day later and I'm back....
Let me continue with a humorous story....
While in college, my friend Frank and I decided that we would lampoon ourselves and religion in general by devising our own "cult". Frank had a pet mouse named "Omar" who unfortunately fell from a top bunk and died when he hit the tile floor. Frank and I decided that since most religions are based on less than this we would form our belief on this event.
"Omarism" was born....
Frank wasn't much on burials and so "flushed" Omar.... We declared that bathrooms would be known as "The Temples Of Omar" and suggested that all people everywhere visit these temples several times daily and leave "offerings" in order to maintain good health and receive "the blessings of Omar"....
We went on to say that our religion was the one true religion because even people who didn't profess "Omarism" still maintained temples of Omar in their houses and worshiped in them daily...and in some under developed countries (such as West Virginia) they even build temples in their back yards and had been worshipping for decades thus setting apart the scared beliefs!
If anyone disagreed with us they were labeled "an unbeliever" and we were still the one true religion because all of our critics at some point, had to admit that they had worshiped in a temple of Omar....
It was one of those crazy college things....but it proves a valueable point....if you are going to pick the fight, chose the arena, make up the rules, and then provide an intellectual arguement based on your rules....you can prove anything as long as you tear apart (according to the rules you've formulated) or disreguard what the competion says.
In the original topic, I saw beliefs shared and intellectual arguements presented based on what I stated as my opinion---but what I didn't see was a discussion about the Sun sign, the Moon sign, the "transits", or the birth profile or natal chart. All the intellectual arguements against were based on discrediting the opinons presented---not on disproving the elements of actual system....
Edited by Tannis (03/06/02 07:48 AM)
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Jared
Stranger
Registered: 04/22/01
Posts: 8,783
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#571040 - 03/05/02 11:06 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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As a matter of fact it does, receiving no response is quite annoying.
In probability, when you roll two dice over and over, into the hundreds and into the thousands it forms a pyramid when the results are tabulated left to right, 1 through 12, 7 being the apex of the pyramid tapering off towards 1 and 2 because of the different combinations possible with the faces of the dice.
I was just saying that you slam your fist down with certainty when you only have a dozen or so results.. in the experiment of the dice (12 outcomes) you cannot possibly begin to see the pyramid without a hundred or more results. So, why would you be able to draw such a precise conclusion from under a dozen results with an experiment which also has twelve outcomes, outcomes which are totally "random", unlike the dice experiment......
Sorry I assumed you heard of the dice pyramid.
Sorry I called you a bastard.
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Jared]
#571083 - 03/06/02 12:07 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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So, why would you be able to draw such a precise conclusion from under a dozen results with an experiment which also has twelve outcomes, outcomes which are totally "random",
I know they are totally random and you do as well, but here on the shroomery, we are dealing with the keenest minds, the creme de la creme, the leading edge of the metaphysical front; a communal mass shattering paradigms of reality at will. I hold these aspiring sorcerers to a higher standard.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Typingwords
Veteran Seasonal PNW Hunter
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#571229 - 03/06/02 03:44 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Attention everyone!!!!!!
yes, now you all need to read tannis' and alphatrono-whatever's post. And let's all be aware of the fact that nothing has been or can be gained as far as saying anything regarding the truth or falsity of astrology in this thread. none of this is going to even come close to meaning anything. You can go on with your other arguments, but no more about astrology. If you do then you might as well be posting "I AM STUPID" in place of your words. My guess is that most of the people who guessed are not properly informed about astrology. This is serious shit, and there are way too many factors involved. If anyone wants to have a valid argument on this, just study all of astrology for a year or so every day, and then figure out swami's exact birthday and time and a bunch of other crap. Or something like that. I'll admit that I don't really know what I'm talking about either. BUt if anyone is really interested in this stuff, I suggest that you also study Edgar Cayce's "views" on astrology in order to further your proper understanding of the subject. BUt then again what do I know? i am no more than a bunch of words on a screen.
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everything everyone everywhere.
forever and ever
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Tannis
ZoneTrooper
Registered: 12/13/01
Posts: 508
Loc: MD.USA
Last seen: 21 years, 29 days
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Typingwords]
#571345 - 03/06/02 07:51 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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What do you know? A lot apparently.....and your right this has past the point of being productive....I'll stop before I have to write "I'm stupi..........
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alphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
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research pointers [Re: Swami]
#571424 - 03/06/02 09:49 AM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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Actually *REAL* research into astrology is fairly easy to do compared to other research into strange phenomena, it just takes time, precision, statistical analysis and good research methodology.
What you need to do is:
1] assign groups of people: sportsmen or politicians or people who have a specific type of cancer or something else get their birthdates/time.
2] compute their horoscopes and put all constalations, powers and planetary positions in degrees into a database table. I used 512 variables for each horoscope.
3] run factor analysis and t-tests on the data
If the groups are large enough the horoscopes shouldn't be different. If they are different AND their methodology is sound than there is something unexplained going on.
Actually researchers that go into this this deep (and risk their reputation) DO find differences, but the results are NOT always in line what tradition astrology would predict.
If i could find the time i would program it all out (again, my old turbo pascal program was very unfortunate deteriorated on the floppy) and take notes on my pda while visiting graveyards. My hypothesis would be that there is an astrological correlation between birthdates and deathdates.
I don't have the time for this yet - but if someone picks this please drop me a message!
I was inspired by this by the research of Peter Roberts (UK) who found harmonics in the distribution of the sunposition in groups of polio patients (Peter Roberts - The message of astrology). Other researchers are Eysenck (famous for the introvert <--> extravert distinction) and Percy Seymour. The problem is that in academics you make yourself unpopular with astrology research so not much quality research in academia is done. You don't have to expect commercial ventures to spend money on this statistical research. That leaves astrology groups, but most astrologers are therapists, jungians and dreamers without knowledge or motivation to research this.
As I said I looked into the sceptic corner, but it was not really convincing to me because:
1) they appeared to be interested only in disproving astrology
2) they discussed only very simple research methodologies
Some groups of astrology researchers:
http://www.astrologer.com/aanet/pub/correl/index.htm
http://www.isarastrology.com/
http://www.aureas.org/rams/ramsus.htm
http://www.iol.ie/~taeger/research/research.html
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Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/18/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
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Re: research pointers [Re: alphatrion]
#571701 - 03/06/02 03:42 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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BTW, I rarely just dismiss anything out-of-hand without research.
Actually I have discussed this with professional astrologers (I don't know if they were "real" only that they made part or all of their living doing personal charts.) I asked them what they base their charts on. For astrology to be valid, it MUST be based on something. Well, it comes down to following a particular book or school of astrology. These books or schools do NOT agree with each other. This goes back to the Swami Exclusion Principle(tm). This law states that with contradictory views, only one or none can be correct (am not talking about parts, but the system as a whole).
Backing up further, trying to find what these books or schools are founded on and you find earlier schools. To quote an old TV commercial "Where's the beef?" (the substance). Seems there is none. One of the astrologers that I interviewed said that personal characteristics were based on thousands of years of observation. Fair enough. When I asked where this database could be found, he looked at me as if I were retarded (Ok - left myself wide open there ) It doesn't exist.
Even if we were influenced by or a reflection of our birthdate, where does one come up with the fact that as a Cancer I am "supposed to" be a shy, sensitive, caring, homebody or whatever? Apparently from nowhere.
Add in the fact that the zodiaks precess (not sure if that is the correct term) or shift positions relative to the earth over time. In other words , a Cancer today may not have been a Cancer 1500 years ago.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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saturnalone
Stranger
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 8
Last seen: 22 years, 1 month
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Re: Guess Swami's Sign [Re: Swami]
#572016 - 03/06/02 11:04 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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your sign. DEA. Drug Enforcement Agency.
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alphatrion
journeyman
Registered: 08/01/01
Posts: 64
Last seen: 19 years, 8 months
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Re: research pointers [Re: Swami]
#573385 - 03/06/02 07:56 PM (22 years, 1 month ago) |
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BTW, I rarely just dismiss anything out-of-hand without research.
If you have dismissed the idea behind astrology (not the specific interpretation) on the basis of your mentioned research report I really think you are mistaken. I wouldn't be content with your methodology if it were mine. I am also a sceptic but i have not yet even finished researching the issue and reached a conclusion. This is not something you can do on a day off.
If you find an astrologer you would be disappointed to find that they are usually not scientific types because their expertise is more in archetypes, counseling and advise so don't expect to much scientific arguments. You don't seem to be aware that interviewing astrologers has its worth but also its limitations. For example you may find occasional science types that can explain you their astrological view and practice with arguments. Be not surprised to find professional astrologers that do not believe in the objective value astrology themselves (!) and explain this to their clients , this does not disprove astrology but shows you that astrology is diverse and also can have counseling value. If something is diverse it doesn't automatically mean it is invalid, in a conversation many times people seem to have different opinions that seem to be opposed but are both valid (for example the feynmann thread).
As in any research you must first define what you are studying - you do not appear to have done this. 'Astrology' is not a science, but a large field of very different persons with different opinions and expectations of astrology doing the things they do for different reasons. You will be (and you have been) disappointed if you approach the field in the narrow way you do. The way you approach it will influence your findings. We are talking about social science here not only math and physics. I am NOT saying that it therefore cannot be researched: the basic assumption of astrology that the position of the planets has a correlation (this does not have to be 1.00) in some circumstances with life on earth *can* be researched and in my previous post i showed you one nice clear example of doing that. But most astrologers will tell you that the objective truth behind astrology will be less important than the symbolism that can be used to view our lives here in a new way.
Well, it comes down to following a particular book or school of astrology. These books or schools do NOT agree with each other. This goes back to the Swami Exclusion Principle(tm). This law states that with contradictory views, only one or none can be correct (am not talking about parts, but the system as a whole).
Partly true, they do agree on the basics - what does the Swami exclusion principle (tm) say about overlapping views? Of interest in this regard is to know that some astrologers think these differences are a problem and they are behind are movements to come to a central astrology in two ways:
* scientific research
* going back to the original sources of interpretations
You can compare these movements to similar movements in christiantity like ecumene or literal interpretation.
One of the astrologers that I interviewed said that personal characteristics were based on thousands of years of observation. Fair enough. When I asked where this database could be found, he looked at me as if I were retarded (Ok - left myself wide open there ) It doesn't exist.
This is also just partly true.. these "thousands of years of observation" are actually experiences from 'famous' astrologers that put them in books - other astrologers copied them. The Ptolemy or Alexander Leo are examples of sources of interpretation.
But how can you violate alphatrion's law of arrogant qualitative research subjects (tm) which states that research subjects who view you as retarded when you ask them a honest question are not to be taken seriously. Search an astrologer that actually understands your question and give a valid responds!
Even if we were influenced by or a reflection of our birthdate, where does one come up with the fact that as a Cancer I am "supposed to" be a shy, sensitive, caring, homebody or whatever? Apparently from nowhere.
No, the interpretation exists and this cancer interpretation is pretty widespread, therefore it must come from somewhere. Memes do not fall out of the sky. If you do not know (and refuse to find out) where it comes from you can not argue about the quality of the source.
See above... you could argue someone made it up or came about it in other ways. Maybe Ptolemy or mr. Leo or other astrologers have written the method by which they got this information, maybe they just made it up, or maybe they took drugs on specific dates who knows. Have you searched for that, if not your research is not complete.
Add in the fact that the zodiaks precess (not sure if that is the correct term) or shift positions relative to the earth over time. In other words, a Cancer today may not have been a Cancer 1500 years ago.
This is normal and factored in into tropical astrology (the most common form). And if you wish dismiss that that still leaves you with sidereal or vedic astrology of which zodiac positions do not shift.
So my conclusion is that you did not do your research very well. Also you take a somewhat sceptical approach to astrology... why is this, why not another appraoch like: what is astrology, what does it mean to people and why do they use, need it... is it a form of guidance, comfort? Can it have value as a philosophical or psychological system?
But i would rather see you going the more scientific route i proposed in my previous post - you have responded to that by saying you did your research... that's not research what you described!!
I find it disturbing that someone who is so for using the mind doesn't seam to use it very well in this regard (not reading sources, not verifying information, not thinking beyond concepts or the background of them, social and psychological contect etc). You should be my shining beacon in our nights of irrationality!
But on the other hand, i can't blame you for not investing much time in it (but i do blame you for your shortsightedness)... i don't find the objective value of astrology more interesting than for example Aliens, Psychoactive, using linux and reading science fiction, arguing on internet. Just like other people are fascinated by astrology.... let them have their fun if they don't do harm and get something meaningful out of it.
Astrology is more like psychology than like physics. And if it would be please approach it more scientifacally; I await your p-values, preferably < 0.05. Please let me know your findings. Be sure to describe and define every term you encounter (zodiac, cancer, astrology, interpretation, meaning) very carefully in order to avoid confusion.
Some pointers if you decide to broaden your view in this regard:
My previous post.
The book: Peter Roberts, 1990 "The Message of Astrology" The Aquarian Press, Wellingborough
YA Astrology research pointer
http://www.astrodatabank.com/Astrology_Research.htm
Cultural branches of astrology
http://www.astro-guide.com/cultural.htm
Astrology Considered as a Potential Science of Time
http://cura.free.fr/xv/11frank3.html
Restoring the astrology of the ancients
http://www.projecthindsight.com/
The Problem of Astrology
http://www.projecthindsight.com/problem.htm
Edited by alphatrion (03/06/02 08:06 PM)
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