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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Beauty [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5662584 - 05/23/06 12:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Quote:

It is a picture, and I find beauty in it, I don't see why that bothers so many of you?




Not to fuel an argument, but if you've seen beauty in that picture (which I have not looked at. By what I've read of it is sounds like the kind of thing which is undesireable for me) then can you not explain the beauty you see, point to what concept it's coming from and it's overall message? I can do this with where I find beauty, I can pinpoint what it stirs up in me no matter how grand that beauty is. Of course, if you couldn't identify what it did within you then you'd really have no reason to claim that it was beauty at all.

So instead of having an argument over whether there is beauty there or not why not have the suggested element of beauty exposed, so that it can be analyzed to see whether it is in actually beauty?




I would also add that suicide does not fit the description of "natural beauty" (which the thread asks for) as it is an intervention which diverts the natural process of life.


evolprim, more pls!  :laugh:


Quote:

It is beautiful in a more profound sense. It doesn't mean there isn't ugliness, but even the ugliness is beautiful because it is part of the greater workings of creation. Creation comes out of destruction. The same force that wiped out Hiroshima is also the force that powers the sun and allows life to exist on earth. Existence is beautiful because it is a complete tapestry of dark and light.



Not even slightly. Ugliness does not reflect the progress of the greater working of creation - it is a dent, and the progress away from the ugliness is what represent the greater working of creation. Creation actually comes out of previous creation, destruction holds back further beauty and causes one more chore for creation to take care of. The 5th element is only a movie, and if you'll recall, the man who spoke that philosophy was also the deceitful bad guy of the flic, who's philosophy was ended along with him.

The same force that wiped out hiroshima is not the same force that powers the sun and allows flowers to grow. Flowers don't grow by having nuclear explosions happen all over the lawn - they are of a similar energy, however whether it is a beautiful or ugly force is differentiated by its method, application & result.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Beauty [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5662846 - 05/23/06 01:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:
Not to fuel an argument, but if you've seen beauty in that picture (which I have not looked at. By what I've read of it is sounds like the kind of thing which is undesireable for me)




so how can you claim that I have no point regarding the picture I have posted if you have yet to read my post, as well as have yet to see the picture? YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT DONNIE!.

Quote:

I would also add that suicide does not fit the description of "natural beauty" (which the thread asks for) as it is an intervention which diverts the natural process of life.





what exactly makes suicide unnatural? If I were to show a video of Lemmings commiting suicide en masse, would it not have been a picture of Beauty? If I were to show the part of Alice in Wonderland where the clams were being led to slaughter, would that be grotesque?

I think you need to first become aware of your social conditioning which forces you to be revolted by certain scenes or pictures, and then overcome those feelings so that you can be appreciative of all things.

Commiting suicide is a part of life, a part of existence. For you to claim that it is "unnatural" or whatever, like some bible thumping christian making all their claims based on a book of morals, that is just laughable.... honestly.

People have committed suicide for thousands upon thousands of years, it isn't some new "fad", it is a part of existence.

I have given a very detailed reason as to why I believe that picture to be beautiful, yet you have yet to give any reason why it isn't beautiful besides the fact that it is "socially unacceptable".... which is complete bullshit, and if that is all the foundation of your argument, then please do yourself a favor and walk away from your keyboard.


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OfflineSprings
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5662974 - 05/23/06 03:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Who's point? The photographers? The victem? Yours? Mine? Tao?

Tell me what the happy ascpects are of a gory suicide? Hurray!? His spirit is free?!?!  :confused:


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InvisibleSinbad
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Re: Beauty [Re: Springs]
    #5663362 - 05/23/06 09:00 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The action of the suicide is not the issue of this argument. The picture of the end result however, is striking, and filled with meaning. But beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.  :wink:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Beauty [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5663398 - 05/23/06 09:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Quote:

beauty:
The quality that gives pleasure to the mind or senses and is associated with such properties as harmony of form or color, excellence of artistry, truthfulness, and originality.




With this definition in mind, please explain why psilocyberin's picture is beautiful.




That isn't the exact definition I had in mind. "Exciting intellectual admiration" is much closer, although aspects of your definition, such as"truthfulness", pertain as well.

I did not find the picture beautiful in the sense that the scene was visually, aesthetically pleasing, and this is not the only conception of beauty that is around.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Beauty [Re: Sinbad]
    #5663427 - 05/23/06 09:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sinbad said:
The action of the suicide is not the issue of this argument. The picture of the end result however, is striking, and filled with meaning. But beauty is always in the eye of the beholder.  :wink:




Its great to see a reasonable, sensible perspective on the matter. :wink:

The color arrangement of the picture is not appealing. The scenery isn't remarkable. The object of interest isn't pleasing.

A picture is said to be a thousand words, and words represent meaning. Meaning is what we are dealing with, and it is from meaning that beauty is derived.

The fact that meaning itself is beautiful doesn't make it any easier. :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleDisco Cat
iS A PoiNdexteR

Registered: 09/15/00
Posts: 2,601
Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5663494 - 05/23/06 09:57 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
Quote:

Disco Cat said:


so how can you claim that I have no point regarding the picture I have posted if you have yet to read my post, as well as have yet to see the picture? YOU ARE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT DONNIE!.

......
what exactly makes suicide unnatural? If I were to show a video of Lemmings commiting suicide en masse, would it not have been a picture of Beauty? If I were to show the part of Alice in Wonderland where the clams were being led to slaughter, would that be grotesque?

I think you need to first become aware of your social conditioning which forces you to be revolted by certain scenes or pictures, and then overcome those feelings so that you can be appreciative of all things.

Commiting suicide is a part of life, a part of existence. For you to claim that it is "unnatural" or whatever, like some bible thumping christian making all their claims based on a book of morals, that is just laughable.... honestly.

People have committed suicide for thousands upon thousands of years, it isn't some new "fad", it is a part of existence.

I have given a very detailed reason as to why I believe that picture to be beautiful, yet you have yet to give any reason why it isn't beautiful besides the fact that it is "socially unacceptable".... which is complete bullshit, and if that is all the foundation of your argument, then please do yourself a favor and walk away from your keyboard.



You're wacked out. I never said you have no point, I suggested you end the argument by discussion the point of beauty which you find in the photo. And I have seen it now, actually I saw it 30 seconds after I made that post yesterday.
"Social conditioning" is one of the cheapest excuses you could have made on the topic. You clearly do not know the meanin of "natural" and so nobodys going to listen to you when you try to claim that this picture represents anything that fits the description "natural." You need to spend less time smoking and more time thinking.
Here are some definitions of "natural" from dictionary.com:
Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned
Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
Faithfully representing nature or life.

So before you pretend to know what you're talking about try spending some time first with your nose in a book, educating yourself, mmm k?



Commiting suicide is not a part of life, because it is in definition death. That one didn't even start of with a bit of logic.

This shit you post about "People have committed suicide for thousands upon thousands of years, it isn't some new "fad", it is a part of existence" a failed attempt to prove something. People have been having wars just as long - but that doesn't prove that murdering someone is now a life-bringing act, meant to be done harmoniously with the universe all at one.



Wait... I'm not going to bother continuing with your post, it is just too lacking in common intelligence. If you retort so will I, but if you don't have the capacity to do a good job of it then leave it alone, please.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5663672 - 05/23/06 10:48 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, my beef with your picture was based on my personal preferences and biases.

I wanted a thread based on pleasurable images and inspiration, and I did not get it.

I apologize for my temper tantrum. Not as an excuse, but as an explanation--I was not feeling well yesterday.

Certainly you are just as entitled to your definition of beauty as I am to mine. I will look elsewhere for the images and discussion I desired, rather than attempting to create something here which does not naturally exist.

Carry on.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5663736 - 05/23/06 11:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
wanted a thread based on pleasurable images and inspiration, and I did not get it.




I was inspired, on a variety of levels. 

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5664314 - 05/23/06 12:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, my beef with your picture was based on my personal preferences and biases.

I wanted a thread based on pleasurable images and inspiration, and I did not get it.

I apologize for my temper tantrum. Not as an excuse, but as an explanation--I was not feeling well yesterday.

Certainly you are just as entitled to your definition of beauty as I am to mine. I will look elsewhere for the images and discussion I desired, rather than attempting to create something here which does not naturally exist.

Carry on.




I wouldn't have posted it if you only wanted nice landscape/frogs/rainbows type pictures.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5664382 - 05/23/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Now who's reading minds?  :lol:

Quote:

Post the most inspiring photo of natural beauty you can find.




Does this equal only frogs and rainbows?  No.  Has anyone posted photos of frogs OR rainbows?  No.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Beauty [Re: Disco Cat]
    #5664454 - 05/23/06 01:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Disco Cat said:

You're wacked out. I never said you have no point,




let me stop you right there and give you a quote from your last post since you forget so easily.....

Quote:

Not to fuel an argument, but if you've seen beauty in that picture (which I have not looked at. By what I've read of it is sounds like the kind of thing which is undesireable for me) then can you not explain the beauty you see, point to what concept it's coming from and it's overall message?







Quote:


"Social conditioning" is one of the cheapest excuses you could have made on the topic. You clearly do not know the meanin of "natural" and so nobodys going to listen to you when you try to claim that this picture represents anything that fits the description "natural." You need to spend less time smoking and more time thinking.




I don't think you even understand the term "social conditioning" nor did you even come close to grasping the context in which it was used.

Also, you have still yet to give any reason as to why suicide is unnatural as well as why it isn't beautiful. What is unnatural about suicide? it is like trying to say that masturbation is unnatural, and then you just start sounding like a cross-waving, christian fundamentalist. Do you really think that humans are above nature? that we are not a part of nature? everything we do, therefor, is natural, from suicide to riding ponies.



Quote:

Here are some definitions of "natural" from dictionary.com:
Not produced or changed artificially; not conditioned
Not altered, treated, or disguised: natural coloring; natural produce.
Faithfully representing nature or life.




AND? so how does that prove my picture is unnatural?

Quote:

So before you pretend to know what you're talking about try spending some time first with your nose in a book, educating yourself, mmm k?




amazing how after three posts, no actual points to an argument, basically everything being an ad hominem or an attempt to divert the discussion towards semantics, you finally decide to end it with the 4th grade equivalent of "get a brain".



Quote:

Commiting suicide is not a part of life, because it is in definition death. That one didn't even start of with a bit of logic.




depends on how your spirituality is, most people who "have a brain" (lol) would say that the opposite of death would be birth, not life. Death is a part of life, because as we all look at that picture, it is not us who is dead.... get it? maybe you should abandon your logic, because it isn't helping you in any way.

Quote:

This shit you post about "People have committed suicide for thousands upon thousands of years, it isn't some new "fad", it is a part of existence" a failed attempt to prove something. People have been having wars just as long - but that doesn't prove that murdering someone is now a life-bringing act, meant to be done harmoniously with the universe all at one.




why did you even post this? what is this in rebuttal to? this is starting to become very funny, the way that you have yet to make any points, debate or counterclaim anything but with personal statements. What is all this side tracking BS about wars and harmonious, universal living?



Quote:

Wait... I'm not going to bother continuing with your post, it is just too lacking in common intelligence. If you retort so will I, but if you don't have the capacity to do a good job of it then leave it alone, please.




isn't this exactly what I told you in my last post? yet you continued to spout an entire page of blather with only one or two sentences with actual substance regarding this discussion.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5664526 - 05/23/06 01:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

psilocyberin said:
isn't this exactly what I told you in my last post? yet you continued to spout an entire page of blather with only one or two sentences with actual substance regarding this discussion.




That's Disco Cat for you. :grin:

What's even better is when he makes comments about you like the one I just made about him. :smirk:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5664598 - 05/23/06 01:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:


Post the most inspiring photo of natural beauty you can find.




the only word that is even somewhat objective is "natural". inspiring and beauty are completely subjective.

Quote:

Has anyone posted photos of frogs OR rainbows? No.




actually, yes, both frogs and rainbows have been posted. I suggest you go back and look.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5664630 - 05/23/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Typo, that should have read "had anyone posted photos of frogs or rainbows." I was referring to the fact that you included that mocking description of this thread in your explanation of your photo choice, at a time when no such images had been posted.

(I believe that David vs. Goliath added the rainbow and frogs later.)

Regardless, you were snide about the photos which others had posted, and implied that it was superior to view your photo as beautiful.

I didn't appreciate the post or the explanation, and I expressed that in my posts.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5664656 - 05/23/06 01:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/5657720/page/0/fpart/2/vc/1

seriously, I don't want to derail this thread any more than it has been, or argue about this stupid semantic bullshit, but when you are wrong, you are just really wrong.

Pictures of frogs and rainbows were both posted before I even posted on this thread.

edit to veritas edit: no he didn't add that later, that is the exact same post I was looking at when i made my first post, why do you think I used the term rainbows coming out of frogs asses?


Edited by psilocyberin (05/23/06 02:00 PM)


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Beauty [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5664658 - 05/23/06 01:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Thank you Disco Cat :thumbup:

Death, destruction etc is not really enclosed in natural beauty. It is only a mirror which perhaps ends and founds live. I can show enough pictures of the destruction of nature, as it is too common these days (so one can see the opposite what is meant by this thread imho):
http://www.greenpeace.org/international/photosvideos/photos?related_item_id=89363

The real beauty of death is a very abstract one, so not really natural and not really understandable.
Click on my sig.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (05/23/06 02:05 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5664673 - 05/23/06 02:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

As I said, regardless of who posted what when, your comments about it were snide and condescending. I did not and do not like your photo, based both on content AND technical AND artistic qualities, and I would have preferred it not be posted in a thread about beauty.

That's it, that's all. I'm done.


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OfflineSneezingPenis
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5664705 - 05/23/06 02:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:


Regardless, you were snide about the photos which others had posted, and implied that it was superior to view your photo as beautiful.

I didn't appreciate the post or the explanation, and I expressed that in my posts.




once again, it is just personal bias which propels you to so vehemently disagree with me. I was sincere, and all you are really left with now to keep reciting is how "snide" I was about it?

I never invalidated anyones pictures, I found all of their pictures beautiful as well. I didn't think my picture was "better", I just thought it showed a very different aspect of beauty.

Like I have said before, it is the social conditioning which has forced many of the objectors to my photo to claim that a picture of a brain splattered wall isn't beautiful.

let me ask you this.... what if it was a very well done anime film, and the realism of a shotgun suicide was so detailed and well drawn, would it still not be beautiful? of course it wouldn't be natural, but that is why I didn't post that.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Beauty [Re: SneezingPenis]
    #5664716 - 05/23/06 02:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

*sigh*  Fine, you did not intend to be snide.  I completely misinterpreted the "rainbows shining out of frog's asses" comment, and it was meant only to factually describe the preceding photos.

I've already said that it was personal bias, personal preference, etc...and apologized for my temper tantrum over it.  I was being very neurotic, expecting reality to conform to my preferences.  I was feeling bad, wanted to give and receive a little inspiration and enjoyment, and instead got involved in a shitstorm of debate over a stupid photo.

:thumbdown: on the whole episode.

(P.S. Nah, I don't like anime, either.  :grin:)

Here's a morgue photo of Marilyn Monroe, just to say "no hard feelings."  :wink:



Edited by Veritas (05/23/06 02:22 PM)


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