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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5660755 - 05/22/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ahhh...so only aesthetically repugnant, poorly composed photos chosen for their shock value are spiritual?
A will to Nothingness at it's finest.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Quote:
So then you are spiritually inspired by focusing only on artistic beauty and keeping the darker aspects of life out of view?
Hmmm...let's see, there is death and disease all around me, all the time, so I should seek it out. Perhaps I could even catch some deadly disease, just so that I am not out of balance with nature. Yes, that's an excellent idea!
And I should start eating food which has spoiled, because decay is part of life, too. I'll just leave all my food on the kitchen counters in the sun, because that is more natural. If I get sick from eating it, that will help my spiritual growth, because pain and suffering are the hallmarks of spiritual maturity.
I should not seek to promote my physical and emotional health, because that would deny the unhealthy aspects of existence, and make me a spiritual Pollyanna.
Quote:
I've personally found that the greatest spiritual growth often comes from pain and struggle.
This is glorifying the alarm system instead of pouring water on the fire.
What were you struggling for? More pain? Or relief?
Why were you hurting? Because everything was OK, because you were emotionally healthy and spiritually aligned? Or because you were unhealthy and misaligned?
Let's not get caught up in enjoying the throbbing pain in our foot whilst gangrene sets in...the pain is the call for healing, not the healing itself.
Edited by Veritas (05/22/06 03:55 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5660788 - 05/22/06 03:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You're not getting me at all. Of course you should put out the fire, but you shouldn't simply ignore the fire and focus on the pretty trees instead. Pain is, by definition, not something to be enjoyed. But it is beautiful in calling our attention to those things which must be fixed.
This is exactly what I hate about so many of the hippies. You bring up stuff like this and they're like "Whoa! Negativity, man! Not cool!" But pain is useful. There is a reason why so many cultures have rites of passage that involve pain. Life is not a bed of roses, or if it is, it comes with the thorns attached. We must first recognize it for what it is, learn to deal with it, and be thankful for the opportunities it presents to us. I will leave you here with a bumper sticker slogan:
"Oh no! Not another learning experience!"
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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But should you light a fire just so that you can appreciate the darker, more destructive aspects of existence? Do you deliberately seek out pain in order to promote growth, or do you deal with it when it occurs?
Deliberately viewing gory, violent images is NOT the same as courageously facing the grim aspects of your own life.
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5660813 - 05/22/06 03:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've decided to help along those who haven't entirely detached themselves from the suffering of other human beings by posting some more beautiful pictures. Remember, it is beautiful. They may be suffering, but think of how much you can learn from distantly observing these wonderful spectacles.

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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5660843 - 05/22/06 04:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: But should you light a fire just so that you can appreciate the darker, more destructive aspects of existence? Do you deliberately seek out pain in order to promote growth, or do you deal with it when it occurs?
Deliberately viewing gory, violent images is NOT the same as courageously facing the grim aspects of your own life.
Deliberately causing and deliberately viewing are two different things. We must be exposed to those things which are not so pretty in order to deal with them.
Remember the story of Siddhartha, who grew up in a palace with all the world's pleasures available to him. Should he not have gone out to see sickness, old age, and death? It was, afterall, a deliberate move on his part. Should he have continued his sheltered, hedonistic existance and not set out to find enlightenment?
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SneezingPenis
ACHOOOOOOOOO!!!!!111!

Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 15,427
Last seen: 6 years, 8 months
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I hit reply to silversoul because there are about 20 posts I wish to reply to and don't have the time (im at work right now) to address them individually.
Here is a picture that I think needs no explanation, but encompasses this entire discussion and holds great relevance to my previous picture.
I think it will now adhere to Veritas "objective standards and guidelines of Beauty". It is a well focused picture, and has good quality, atleast for the time it was taken. For those of you who know it only from the cover of the RATM album, it is Quang Duc, who set himself on fire (not the only one) as a protest against the Vietnamese Presidents treatment of Buddhists. For something like 23 minutes he sat there in immolation never once moving a muscle. Just as you all may have wept at a certain time at the beauty of something such as a new born child, a serene lake sunset, I too have wept from the beauty of this picture and all the meaning/understanding held within it.
For the sake of this argument, there is no difference between this picture, and my first one. They are "gruesome" portrayals of suicide, yet I am willing to bet that many of you will not have as much of a problem with this picture, and will find your arguments and counterclaims of subjective beauty will fall short when trying to defend your shortsighted position.
Veritas: the quality of a picture does help show portray beauty better, but on the same token, sometimes the grainy, out of focus, or poor lighting can help emphasize this "gruesome beauty" I am talking about, just as much as perfectly balanced, lighted, and focused pictures of rainbows and frogs can help emphasize their "natural beauty". I think your entire argument stems from personal bias towards me, and how you think you have me pegged as a devil's advocate. Sorry, but you are dead wrong in this instance. We are delving into the realm of aesthetics, which is closely tied if not a synonym for art. Beauty can be better defined as an affinity or appreciation for the aesthetics of an event/picture/sculpture/song (any perceptual avenue). What you are arguing is that all art should be of a nice fluffy nature, and should only portray a very lopsided part of life/existence... Sorry Mr. Geiger, your art isn't beautiful, because you have no frogs or Rainbows in them.
I am not incapable of appreciating or finding the beauty in all of the other pictures posted on here, even the ones Mushthemanic has posted. Life just IS, be it orgasms, fluffy bunnies, KKK rallies, or calm midnight lagoon scenes, and your perception of it as good, bad, ugly, or wrong, doesn't make it universally so. I am no sadist, I am just a Realist, and I appreciate the infinite beauty of existence, and I am not willing to put emotional blinders on due to my socially conditioned judgement so as to block out reality.
Veritas, I don't always agree with you, and that is one of the things I enjoy about you, but your hubris on this subject is laughable.
To whomever claimed that I did not get the philosophy I had put forth: I think you need to go back and reread my post, it was worded in such a way as to not derail this thread on the semantics of the soul vs brain debate. I had written "tangible and corporeal" for a reason.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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How many of us are living in a palace? My town is very nice, green, low crime rate, etc...but disease and death are still as close as the next door neighbor who blew his head off in his parked RV in our driveway.
My point was never that a sheltered existence is preferable, but rather that (for most of us) is impossible. The balance which needs to be restored is that towards beauty, towards love, towards cherishing life and pleasure and excellence. We are all already tipped too far in the direction of ugliness and despair.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Speaking of KKK rallies:

Isn't the burning cross a beautiful sight? And look at their long, flowing, white sheets. Truly an awe-inspiring spectacle.
Moral of the story: Looks aren't everything.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Make up your mind. Should we seek out and appreciate the ugly beauty in those hate-mongering, murderous bastards, or should we condemn them and curse their burning crosses for the ugly symbols of hatred they are??
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5660997 - 05/22/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Veritas said: Make up your mind. Should we seek out and appreciate the ugly beauty in those hate-mongering, murderous bastards, or should we condemn them and curse their burning crosses for the ugly symbols of hatred they are??
Both. We should appreciate the lessons that we learn from them, and try to teach those lessons to others. They provide a great example of how not to live your life, and we should be thankful for such an opportunity to learn.
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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I agree. So what does that have to do with their pretty burning crosses and freshly-bleached hoods? Will I learn more about the KKK by looking at pictures of the people they have tortured and hanged? Can I truly grasp the depths of their bigotry, fear & hatred of those who are different without gazing upon the mutilated bodies of their victims?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5661007 - 05/22/06 05:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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My point is that beauty is not about looks. We are repulsed by the picture of a burning cross, even though it is aesthetically quite pleasing to the eye? Why? Because of what it represents. Meaning is what truly counts, and when you see how things are interconnected, you will understand how they are beautiful.
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Cherk
Fashionable


Registered: 10/25/02
Posts: 46,493
Loc: International
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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it is not the lessons we learn from gore, but rather the gore itself that is beautiful
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I have considered such matters. SIKE
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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I had to skim through the majority of the posts because I feel compelled to make my reply, and do not want to lose my line of thought. 
I personally appreciated the picture of the man with the shotgun. It was certainly the one that caught my attention the most. I couldn't help but analyze it and look it over.
First off, I don't buy the attitude that "this stuff is everywhere and that it is not appropriate here, that the media propagates this kind of stuff and etc. etc. etc.". That picture was raw, it was a straight-forward glimpse of an aspect of life, and I highly doubt that you are going to see something that graphic in the media.
It was provoking. It made me think. It expressed a lot. It is truly sickening, but one has to ask oneself why. One begins to ponder the specific situation that was responsible for that outcome. Why is it that life, filled with so much beauty, resulted in that?
The same can be asked about the picture of the black man hanging from a tree. It is all about perspective. Someone who has to consciously process an image such as that and its ramifications is going to come to different conclusionss and decide to behave differently than a young man brought up in a society of rednecks who simply do not identify with the result of their actions agansit others.
What is beauty? Beauty isn't the same thing as "pretty", most certainly. It isn't simply just something that is aesthetically appealing. Beauty is representation, conveyance of some aspect of nature and reality... beauty is contrast. Beauty implies awareness.
Beauty equates with reality, I'd dare say. 
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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Ahhh...I see, so it is the meaning behind the lame polaroid of a shotgun suicide which makes it inspiring and beautiful. 
You're all over the place on this one, buddy. Either it is all beautiful because it is all part of the oneness of existence, and what the fuck is MY problem if I can't appreciate the beauty of exploded brain tissue on a wall, OR it is the meaning behind what we see which makes it beautiful or ugly.
If the meaning behind the shotgun pic is that he was so overcome with despair and self-loathing that he decided to chomp on a gun barrel, then the photo is ugly, regardless of how much we could appreciate the image. If it is ALL beautiful, then the flaming cross would be just as inspiring and magical as the gore.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5661032 - 05/22/06 05:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
You're all over the place on this one, buddy.
No I'm not. My point is the same as it ever was. The meaning behind the shotgun pic is not just that he ended his life out of despair, but that it disturbs us because of how it reminds us of our own mortality. It is an opportunity to grow, and that is a beautiful thing.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5661041 - 05/22/06 05:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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here is what I think is truly beautiful:













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Veritas

Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
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You're confusing the meaning with the potentially-provoked reaction. The meaning of that image is not how we personally react to it, as each of our reactions is different. One person might be sickened, another saddened, another excited, another annoyed (me.)
The meaning of a burning cross would not exist without the context of the KKK using it as their "calling card." If we were ignorant of the KKK's existence, the image you posted would not necessarily be perceived as evil or ugly.
The meaning of someone with their head blown to bits is fairly self-evident, however. You can call it an opportunity to grow if you wish, and even use it that way if you can, but the image is not changed by your actions. Nor is the intention of the one who posted it.
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fireworks_god
Sexy.Butt.McDanger


Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,855
Loc: Pandurn
Last seen: 1 year, 12 days
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
#5661052 - 05/22/06 05:34 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Since when is beauty not in the eye of the beholder?
Beauty is nothing without meaning, which is nothing without awareness.
 Peace.
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If I should die this very moment I wouldn't fear For I've never known completeness Like being here Wrapped in the warmth of you Loving every breath of you
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