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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660471 - 05/22/06 02:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ugliness and beauty are not the same...that is the whole point. They are opposites. Pain and pleasure, dark and light, happiness and grief...will you now try to say that all opposites are the same? Is this doublespeak? Slavery is freedom...


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
Stranger

Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660485 - 05/22/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I refuse to think something is beautiful merely because it exists.
If you believe everything is beautiful, "beauty" becomes a useless concept.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5660487 - 05/22/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Great, fine, then go watch "Faces of Death" or some other gore-mongering film.  Your spiritual maturity will certainly benefit from it.  After all, the millions who watch people get blown up, hacked apart, strangled, etc...on their TV's every night are incredibly spiritually mature, right??

There is certainly nothing ghoulish about wanting to see beauty in the death and pain of others...or enjoying it...or causing it.  IT'S ALL BEAUTIFUL!!  GOD MADE IT ALL!  WE MUST ALL LOVE IT AND THINK IT IS BEAUTIFUL!  :rolleyes:

Your premise is fatally flawed.



There is an eerie kind of beauty to death.  We all will die someday, and watching such gory deaths is a reminder of our own mortality.  In the new Tool album, Maynard sings "Vicariously I live will the whole world dies."  Life feeds on death.  There is no creation without destruction.  There is no beauty without ugliness.  We consume food which gives us life, and it comes out as feces.  Yet these feces help fertilize plants and continue the cycle of life.  All is connected.  All is one.  :yinyang:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660516 - 05/22/06 02:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

There is an eerie kind of beauty to death.

Yeah, cus seeing the tearful faces of the family members of the deceased is a pleasureful sight to our eyes....
:thumbdown:


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Loc: The Barricades
Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5660522 - 05/22/06 02:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Ugliness and beauty are not the same...that is the whole point. They are opposites. Pain and pleasure, dark and light, happiness and grief...will you now try to say that all opposites are the same? Is this doublespeak? Slavery is freedom...



I don't believe in opposites. They are a dualistic construct which ignores the oneness and interconnectedness of things. Darkness is dependent upon light. Happiness is not possible without grief. One man's slavery is another man's freedom.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Beauty [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5660532 - 05/22/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
There is an eerie kind of beauty to death.

Yeah, cus seeing the tearful faces of the family members of the deceased is a pleasureful sight to our eyes....
:thumbdown:



Grief helps bring people together.  Mourning for the dead helps us realize how important others in our life are to us.  There is indeed beauty in it, even if it's not the type of beauty you smile at.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Posts: 11,089
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660536 - 05/22/06 02:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Beauty: the quality or aggregate of qualities in a person or thing that gives pleasure to the senses or pleasurably exalts the mind or spirit.




Quote:

Ugly: offensive to the sight b : offensive or unpleasant to any sense.




OK, by a show of hands, how many viewers were pleasurably exalted by the bad quality Polaroid of a shotgun suicide?

Of those with your hands up, how many of you are now or have previously been incarcerated or involuntarily committed?

Thank you.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5660549 - 05/22/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Ah, but some words have more than one definition.

Quote:

beauty: a particularly graceful, ornamental, or excellent quality




There is certainly a graceful aspect to mortality, if only in the fact that reminds us to live our lives with purpose.


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660551 - 05/22/06 02:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

less talk, more pictures.  :heart:



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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5660565 - 05/22/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

beauty and pleasure are about ballance
ugliness and pain are about too much or too little when a mean is craved.
this is not complex, but making it part of life is very complex, especially with raging egos which cannot let go of their own mortality and mortification.


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Beauty [Re: moog]
    #5660566 - 05/22/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Are pretty pictures really more relevant to spirituality and philosophy than discussing what beauty is and where it is to be found? The suicide picture has helped spawn some useful debate, and helped us to get to the real heart of the issue. The is a perfect example of my contention about beauty in ugliness.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Beauty [Re: Veritas]
    #5660567 - 05/22/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Finding beauty in cruelty, suffering, pain, death, etc is called "sadism".


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OfflineDoctorJ
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Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
Loc: space
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
Re: Beauty [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5660569 - 05/22/06 02:57 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I want my funeral to be a big party with fine hos and clean caddillacs all line up and down the block!


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Invisiblemoog
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Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660574 - 05/22/06 02:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, but incessant debate won't help you be any more enlightened either. :smile:


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Beauty [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5660577 - 05/22/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Finding beauty in cruelty, suffering, pain, death, etc is called "sadism".



I would say that sadism is more about a preference for those things, rather than simply finding beauty in them. I certainly don't prefer those things, but I recognize the role they play in the beautiful balance of existence.


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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Re: Beauty [Re: DoctorJ]
    #5660581 - 05/22/06 02:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I want my funeral to be a big party with fine hos and clean caddillacs all line up and down the block!



I've actually heard that Mexican funerals are quite festive celebrations.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
irregular verb
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Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,534
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660582 - 05/22/06 03:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:...
is a perfect example of my contention about beauty in ugliness.



thanks, exactly the point.
you are contentious.
emphasizing some agony
and mortifying yourself
to persist in this picture
thus perverting the theme of
beauty into self self self self self.....


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:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
Re: Beauty [Re: Silversoul]
    #5660586 - 05/22/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If you think watching people suffer is beautiful... I don't know what else I can say. I thought you Gnostics valued empathy and altruism, but you seem to be peddling the philosophy of tyrannts and sociopaths.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,089
Re: Beauty [Re: moog]
    #5660592 - 05/22/06 03:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Death Valley



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InvisibleSilversoul
Rhizome
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Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Beauty [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5660602 - 05/22/06 03:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
If you think watching people suffer is beautiful... I don't know what else I can say. I thought you Gnostics valued empathy and altruism, but you seem to be peddling the philosophy of tyrannts and sociopaths.



You're missing the point. It's not that I take pleasure in suffering, or advocate the extension of it. I'm not a sadist. But I do recognize that even those aspects of reality that seem cruel and unpleasant to us are a necessary part of a more beautiful big picture. Taking everything in context is what's all about.


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