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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656108 - 05/21/06 12:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I don't really see what else handouts are going to be able to support. Certainly not rent, doctor bills, etc.




You might be surprised. A local "homeless" (they live in a nice hotel) couple recently admitted to earning $300 per day panhandling. They have three kids & support their family by telling people that they lost their home, have no money, and were forced to move into a fleabag motel while they try to save enough to rent a house. They have been doing this for years.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: hot48yearolds]
    #5656109 - 05/21/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

hot48yearolds said:
If alcahol and crack give them pleasure than they may be just as important as food is to us.




Indeed, and yet importance is simply a self-inflated notion. The question of what is beneficial and sustaining is an entirely different one.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656113 - 05/21/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We are not responsible for their pleasure or meeting their basic needs.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656135 - 05/21/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Certainly. Life requires providing for one's existance, and it lessens our ability to life our own life if we must carry another on our back. Nature's solution to the problem should be our own, within reason. Obviously, we all need some help every once and awhile, but there is a marked difference between that and sustaining another's existance, which is why we shouldn't simply hand out money.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656146 - 05/21/06 12:38 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm saying that we are no more responsible to keep another human fed than we are to provide him with a portable DVD player and a bong.

If we choose to sustain his life, or increase his pleasure in being alive, we can do so with no strings attached, or with the idea that he should be grateful & only ask for what he needs to survive. The latter reason is just an ego trip.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656157 - 05/21/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well certainly. I am simply promoting a practical approach to giving others the energy that you have engaged yourself in earning, if one chooses to do so at all. :wink:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


Edited by fireworks_god (05/21/06 12:41 PM)


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656178 - 05/21/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, you went beyond the practical when you attempted to qualify the difference between basic necessities and pleasure-promoting commodities.

If you are freely donating your energy, in the form of food or currency, it would not matter whether the donee flushed the food down the toilet or purchased drugs with the cash.

If you are giving money grudgingly, or out of a sense of moral superiority, it will matter what happens to your donation. You will desire control or authority over what has been given. That is the ego trip.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656219 - 05/21/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah exactly. That's why i give without asking the person what it's needed for. It's really none of my business. I give out of principle. If you need something, and i can give it to you, then i'll give. I don't need to know the reason why. It could be for food, shelter, clothes, alcohol, crack cocaine, a new TV, a visit to a massage parlor, whatever.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: moog]
    #5656225 - 05/21/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In your case, you are giving in exchange for the intrinsic reward of living according to your principles.

When someone gives with strings attached, they are exchanging their gift for the extrinsic reward of control and authority over another.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656228 - 05/21/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
No, you went beyond the practical when you attempted to qualify the difference between basic necessities and pleasure-promoting commodities.




Incorrect. It is one's conscious decision how one wishes to distribute one's energy. Thus, one maintains a sense of practicality in doing so. I do not understand how discerning the difference between a necessity for life and an endeavor which is an arbitrary want means that I went beyond the practical. :wtf:

Quote:


If you are freely donating your energy, in the form of food or currency, it would not matter whether the donee flushed the food down the toilet or purchased drugs with the cash.




Exactly. To me, and my life situation, freely donating my energy is not practical. If I were to assist another person with my energy, I would assess the situation and make a decision as to whether or not it would be worth my doing so.

Quote:


If you are giving money grudgingly, or out of a sense of moral superiority, it will matter what happens to your donation.  You will desire control or authority over what has been given.  That is the ego trip.




Nowhere has it been hinted that this is what I am referring to. Again, I fail to see how I have went beyond practicality with this. :confused:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656245 - 05/21/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, you misunderstand. i'm giving because they asked.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: moog]
    #5656249 - 05/21/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, and you gave because you choose to live by that principle. You are rewarded within yourself, by yourself, when you make this choice.


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Invisiblemoog
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656258 - 05/21/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well it appears you know my motivations and mind better than myself, so what more can i say?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656271 - 05/21/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If you are genuinely poor, a free meal and some clothes would be what you would need the most in the immediate moment, and that is what should be offered. If they need money for transportation, give them a bus pass. I remember someone saying once that they'll never give out money, but will more than gladly hook 'em up with stuff like what I mentioned.

If only people walked the streets handing poor people free alcohol and crack...



(emphasis added)

This is where you detoured from the practical into the imperative/moral advice. Saying that we should only offer basic necessities to those in need implies that we should not offer non-necessities, and those in need perhaps should not ask for help to attain these non-necessities.


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: moog]
    #5656280 - 05/21/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I am not saying that I can read your mind, I am describing human psychology. We perform actions based upon perceived rewards. Actions which are never rewarded cease to be performed.

As you stated that your actions were based on principle, I said that your reward was the sense of living according to your principles.


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656305 - 05/21/06 01:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Perhaps you should have also emphasized the word if. :wink:

If someone was genuinely poor, then they would not be able to provide for the basic necessities which they need to continue living their life. Yes, or no?

If so, then would you first give them some food, or a new watch?

"Should" was not employed in a moral sense, but a practical one. For example, if one has a gaping wound from which blood is pouring out, should one take steps to bandage it up and prevent any more blood loss, or should one spark up a cigarette?

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656337 - 05/21/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If you offer someone food, and they decline, and ask you for cash instead, should you impose your standards upon them? 

If they do not want food, does this mean they are NOT genuinely poor, but employed in a scheme to defraud hard-working department store employees of part of their weekly paycheck?

:grin:

Yes, of course being genuinely poor will mean that you cannot afford basic necessities.  However, you could find someone who is poor, yet receiving food stamps or gleaning food, who desperately needs cash for non-food necessities.

My point was that people may ask for money for a variety of wants, as well as basic needs.  If it is important to you that your donation be used for a specific purpose, then your reward involves control.

(And just so you know, I don't give food or money to beggars.  I think they should get off their lazy asses and get a job, or accept the consequences of their choices.  :wink:)


Edited by Veritas (05/21/06 01:24 PM)


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656371 - 05/21/06 01:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
If you offer someone food, and they decline, and ask you for cash instead, should you impose your standards upon them?




It has nothing to do with imposing standards, and everything to do with making a personal choice as to how one wishes to expend one's energies if one chooses to do so.

Quote:


If they do not want food, does this mean they are NOT genuinely poor, but employed in a scheme to defraud hard-working department store employees of part of their weekly paycheck?




I am contemplating possible situations in which someone would be begging on the streets for money, but would have basic necessities covered. Can't really think of any.

Quote:


Yes, of course being genuinely poor will mean that you cannot afford basic necessities.  However, you could find someone who is poor, yet receiving food stamps or gleaning food, who desperately needs cash for non-food necessities.




Such as... clothing? Transportation? A job application? :grin:

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: fireworks_god]
    #5656388 - 05/21/06 01:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Such as... clothing? Transportation? A job application?




Yes, clothing and transportation, plus shelter, medical care, toiletries.  There are basic necessities besides food, you know.

A job application would be a great gift.  :grin:


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Offlinefireworks_godS
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Re: do you give to the poor and if so how much? [Re: Veritas]
    #5656405 - 05/21/06 01:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Veritas said:
Yes, clothing and transportation, plus shelter, medical care, toiletries.  There are basic necessities besides food, you know. 




I am aware of this, which is why I state that it preferable to offer these necessities themselves instead of simply money. I fully acknowledge that my list was not all-inclusive.

One thing that is to be kept in mind is that, if the person is to the point that they are in the streets, begging for charity of those who pass by in order to fufill some need or wish, then they are, most possibly, unable to properly conduct their life and their resources in a manner that would help them and their situation.

If one is truly interested in providing help, then one isn't going to simply toss money at their feet.

:earth: :sun: :headbang: :satansmoking:
Peace. :mushroom2:


--------------------
:redpanda:
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you

:heartpump: :bunnyhug: :yinyang:

:yinyang: :levitate: :earth: :levitate: :yinyang:


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