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MasFina
Snow Shredder


Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains
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Carmelized jars pissing me off
#5650628 - 05/19/06 03:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I just tried pcing some Karo LC jars and had 2 failed attempts in a row. Both times they came out yellowish. The second time I started a 15 minute timer as soon as the little nub popped up to signal that it was pressurized. I put the bobble top on at this point too. I turned the heat all the way up in the beggining (before it was pressurized)to speed things up and then dropped it to about medium. Could this initial high heat be yellowing the jars or am I still PCing too long? What is the exact order of events? I am getting really frustrated with this. please help
-------------------- A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step Timer Modification PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping
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MasFina
Snow Shredder


Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: MasFina]
#5650722 - 05/19/06 03:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Someone please help before I screw up a third time
-------------------- A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step Timer Modification PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: MasFina]
#5650834 - 05/19/06 04:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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surprise... karo doesn't carmelize in a PC.
karo is something like 96+% glucose. glucose carmelizes at 320F. PC at 15PSI is approximately 250F. not even close.
i don't doubt that it yellows, it could be something to do with whatever that other 4% is. hell it could even be rust from a hole in your lid if you're re-using a metal lid. don't know. either way its pretty normal that it turns a little yellowish, and it should still work a-o-k.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: creamcorn]
#5650910 - 05/19/06 04:48 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ah Karo does carmelize in a PC at 250F even (fact) if allowed to go too long I don't give a shit what anyone else says I know better! I go 15min. at 15lbs. no more even less. FYI camelized LC if only slightly carmelized still works alright but overly carmelized retards growth.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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MasFina
Snow Shredder


Registered: 05/08/06
Posts: 788
Loc: Mountains
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: hyphae]
#5650920 - 05/19/06 04:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Ok, I was worried about it because of the liquid tek in the wiki. It said carmelization is real bad. I did it a third time at much lower temp and it was at 15psi for only about 5 out of 15 minutes(was heating up the rest of the time). Well, hopefully it doesn't have bacteria left in it. Thanks for the replies
-------------------- A Good Substrate: Poo With Extras Good Liquid Culture, Step by Step Timer Modification PM me if you are interested in buying 140ml syringes. $6 each + $7 shipping
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: MasFina]
#5650934 - 05/19/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Even boiling for 15min will work so take that into consideration, I often start timing as soon as the steam start shooting out forcefully thru the vent. BTW I just love the weight on my 921 it allows a slightly wider range in the stove setting and lets me know everything is proper even though I'm in the other room!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: hyphae]
#5650951 - 05/19/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
hyphae said: Ah Karo does carmelize in a PC at 250F even (fact) if allowed to go too long I don't give a shit what anyone else says I know better! I go 15min. at 15lbs. no more even less. FYI camelized LC if only slightly carmelized still works alright but overly carmelized retards growth.
ahaha another disagreement glucose does not carmelize under 320... end of story. that's like saying if you hold water at a temperature of 190 long enough it will start boiling... of course it won't, you have to hit the boiling point. 320 is the bottom limit. it will be very slow at that temperature. it more readily carmelizes at temps upwards of 360 in fact.
but like i said karo isn't pure glucose. there's other ingredients. fructose being one, that will begin to carmelize at 230F. some of those other ingredients are also trace amino acids. there's another reaction similar to carmelization called a maillard reaction. a maillard reaction happens when you have three things: amino acids, sugars, and heat. (heat in the range of the low 200F's) the product of a mailiard reaction is a few things, including certain flavors, and tada - brown pigment! this reaction happens when you roast a piece of meat, or stick a piece of bread in the toaster for example. this is why your karo solution yellows. there's still all of that glucose in there ready and able to feed your mycelium, so its not a problem.
oh, and its worth adding, that that 320F figure is at atmospheric pressure. i'd assume inside a higher pressure environment, much like the boiling temperature of water goes up, so may the carmelization temperature.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: creamcorn]
#5650960 - 05/19/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
creamcorn said:
Quote:
hyphae said: Ah Karo does carmelize in a PC at 250F even (fact) if allowed to go too long I don't give a shit what anyone else says I know better! I go 15min. at 15lbs. no more even less. FYI camelized LC if only slightly carmelized still works alright but overly carmelized retards growth.
ahaha another disagreement glucose does not carmelize under 320... end of story. that's like saying if you hold water at a temperature of 190 long enough it will start boiling... of course it won't, you have to hit the boiling point. 320 is the bottom limit. it will be very slow at that temperature. it more readily carmelizes at temps upwards of 360 in fact.
but like i said karo isn't pure glucose. there's other ingredients. fructose being one, that will begin to carmelize at 230F. some of those other ingredients are also trace amino acids. there's another reaction similar to carmelization called a maillard reaction. a maillard reaction happens when you have three things: amino acids, sugars, and heat. (heat in the range of the low 200F's) the product of a mailiard reaction is a few things, including certain flavors, and tada - brown pigment! this reaction happens when you roast a piece of meat, or stick a piece of bread in the toaster for example. this is why your karo solution yellows. there's still all of that glucose in there ready and able to feed your mycelium, so its not a problem.
Whatever! You seem to know quite of bit and am probably far more experienced than I. Book knowledge will get you no where on my streets bro. GL I mean it BTW whatever it does carmelizing or not it can certainly have a major effect or at least that what I've seen over the years from many a cultivator.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: hyphae]
#5650978 - 05/19/06 05:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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haha i'm not making this stuff up nor trying to go around proving you wrong i actually checked on this whole carmelization situation a few weeks back with a friend of mine who has gone through culinary school, and is a professional pastry chef- and that was her take on it, as well as pointing me to the maillard reaction information.
i've also seen in personal experience from the mycological point of view yellowed karo jars grow thick and healthy mycelium. i got a refrigerator drawer full of them right now.
i don't mean to come across as a know-it-all, coz i know i do come across that way i'm just naturally skeptical and don't buy into a lot of the myths that float around! most of them cause undue stress, like this poor guy here PC'ing karo jars over and over ready to pull his hair out.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure


Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 42,214
Loc: Seattle
Last seen: 11 months, 3 days
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: creamcorn]
#5650985 - 05/19/06 05:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I've also seen karo carmelize, and that's a fact. It matters little whether it's glucose or fructose. It's karo and it carmelizes. Perhaps there's levels of carmelization, and the higher temps will fully carmelize the substance for candy making or some such, who knows. All I do know is if it has turned very yellow, it doesn't work well at all.
That said, I prefer brewers malt and yeast over karo by a mile. 20 grams of malt and 2 grams of yeast per liter of distilled water. Never had THAT carmelize...lol. RR
-------------------- Download Let's Grow Mushrooms semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat "I've never had a failed experiment. I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work." Thomas Edison
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: creamcorn]
#5650994 - 05/19/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Understand there is a difference between dry heat carmelization and moist heat carmelization tell your friend. I'm glad your sceptical but don't confuse that with experience.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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splifner180
Student


Registered: 03/24/06
Posts: 1,288
Loc: USA, East Coast
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: hyphae]
#5651377 - 05/19/06 07:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Forgive me for being the empiricist here but ...why doesn't someone just PC a bunch of 3% karo in water solution jars for a couple of hours.
Photograph the results.
After all, if the PC can't get even close to 320F, the pics should reveal no solids. End o debate.
splif
-------------------- First Grow: Ecuador -> LC -> HPoo/Straw -> Monotub Build a Do-It-Yourself Magnetic Stirrer in thirty minutes with no money.
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
Posts: 6,228
Loc: the rain forests
Last seen: 12 years, 8 months
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: splifner180]
#5651610 - 05/19/06 09:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
splifner180 said: Forgive me for being the empiricist here but ...why doesn't someone just PC a bunch of 3% karo in water solution jars for a couple of hours.
Photograph the results.
After all, if the PC can't get even close to 320F, the pics should reveal no solids. End o debate.
splif
There wouldn't be any solids either way.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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fastfred
Old Hand



Registered: 05/17/04
Posts: 6,899
Loc: Dark side of the moon
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Re: Carmelized jars pissing me off [Re: hyphae]
#5651999 - 05/20/06 12:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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This reminds me of an argument from years ago! I thought that the issue was long settled.
People like to jump in and say "carmelization only happens at such and such temp, blah, bla, blah." They seem to have such specific details on exactly what does what. Well it's all BS. It's just info from home candy makers rephrased as if it were scientific fact.
Here is the nut of the argument. "Carmelization" is not a named reaction. There is no specific "carmelization" reaction. Carmelization is simply discoloration caused by heating sugars. As such, anytime you heat a sugar and it changes to a darker color "carmelization" has occurred.
It is a problem at normal sterilization temperatures and it can cause poor growth. It's the main reason scientists use the minimum sterilization time when preparing media. If it weren't a problem media preparation guides would say "15min@20 psi, awww... what the hell just go for 1 hour to be safe." In fact, they always warn about overcooking potentially causing carmelization problems.
-FF
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