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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory
#5646207 - 05/18/06 12:46 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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There's been a bunch of questions about fuzz on the stems lately, and I made a little discovery myself just this afternoon to help explain WHY it happens.
Have seen folks give all sorts of reasons why it might happen, hearing things like high temperature and high humidity cited often. Well my neglectful "short bus" grow (2nd link in my sig) leads me to believe its air exchange. This grow was done at room temps, average of 68F. It was also done with a really ghetto humidifying method (but one that surprisingly is producing about 85%RH now that I've measured it.)
First lets think this through intuitively: CO2 is heavier than air, and therefore settles near the surface. Mycelium like higher than ambient CO2 levels. Fuzz grows on stems near the base, at the surface. Coincidence? Don't think so.
In my neglect grow the container was given no air exchange for several days. The bases of the stems were quite fuzzy. Air exchange was suddenly introduced over the past 48 hours as I was taking some pictures to post in the other thread. During that time, the mushrooms got about an inch taller. The part that was already fuzzy moved up on the stem as it grew, but no more fuzz grew at the base anymore. So now they have a ring of fuzz around them about a third of the way up, with clean looking bases. Its sort of like how you can tell the age of a tree by counting the rings inside the stump - well here we can see the time period there was no FAE by looking at the fuzz on the stem. Kinda funny looking really, I'll add a picture to the post a little later this afternoon when I get a chance so you can see what I mean more clearly.
So what's the point of knowing this? Perhaps your fuzzy stems might be taken as an indication that its time to up the FAE. 
edit - as promised, a nice closeup:
Edited by creamcorn (05/18/06 03:31 PM)
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monstermitch
Growing in Bags Doesn't Work


Registered: 02/10/06
Posts: 3,911
Loc: Arizona Bay
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5646314 - 05/18/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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good thinking.
good job.
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dog
straw dog

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 2,790
Loc: Route 66
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5646514 - 05/18/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fuzzy stems are a result of high humidity - when you increase FAE the humidity goes down and the result is less fuzz.
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Fascism (fash'izem) n. A governmental system marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls, and often belligerent nationalism. see also: the Bush Administration.
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Dragonaut

Registered: 06/24/04
Posts: 6,190
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: dog]
#5646701 - 05/18/06 03:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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He says his RH was 85%. That's not very high, is it?
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: dog]
#5646781 - 05/18/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
dog said: Fuzzy stems are a result of high humidity - when you increase FAE the humidity goes down and the result is less fuzz.
do you really KNOW its humidity? or are you simply rehashing something you've heard other people say? i think we get much of the latter on the forums. i think i've experimentally shown here its not humidity.
i didn't really "increase" FAE all that much. just a matter of opening the container a couple of times for a minute to take pictures. no fancy fanning or anything. sure RH drops for a few minutes after but goes right back. it's a very very small fruiting chamber made out of a baking pan, that was purposely neglected for almost the entire duration of the grow... and because of its small size any changes of humidity are just little blips on the radar over the big picture. giving CO2 a chance to escape all at once on the other hand seems to have played a way way way bigger role. and besides, at a max of 85%, that's not exactly high in the first place.
i'm still convinced its directly related to CO2 accumulation and has little to do with humidity or temps.
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hyphae
born to grow


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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5647056 - 05/18/06 05:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Fuzz on caps is directly relayed to high humidities but as we all know myc does veg best in high CO2 levels so you may have a point it's not out of the question IMO. Myc also veges best in nearly saturated conditions so humidities reaching close to 100% will reflect this also so IMHO both are related for sure it's not just one or the other creamcorn. It's great to see your wheels turning so early in your cultivating career just keep that mind open because all the best minds do!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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creamcorn
mad scientist


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Posts: 2,962
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: hyphae]
#5647499 - 05/18/06 07:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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well then i'm willing to compromise. i guess the real cause is less important than the effect. whether the FAE did it directly, or the lack of humidity because the FAE did it, or a cobination of both did it doesn't matter so much - its a chicken and the egg argument - but recognizing that i performed a single action (only adjusted FAE, if RH followed that action too then so be it, but i took no deliberate step to change RH), and in the future when i see the same indicator (the fuzz) i'm going to take it as a sign to perform the same action (more FAE). and its not even because i give a crap about the fuzz itself, but the pic clearly shows a huge amount of growth over a small amount of time after taking the action... and huge amounts of quick growth is what i'm all about
either way you look at it, its a simple indication that you can visually observe without the need for a hygrometer, or an even more costly CO2 meter, and a lesson that sometimes you need to listen to what your grow is saying rather than stress over specific measurements and commonly accepted guidelines so much. its like... you don't need a doctor to tell you that you have a stomach ache, you know you do when it doesn't feel right!
we all want happy mushrooms because they make us happy
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hyphae
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5647553 - 05/18/06 08:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You said you only performed a single action but in reality you performed many actions with just that one. As I've said before transpiration is a vehicle that stimulates growth. 100% RH actually retards growth when combined with inadequate FAE's. There is still an enormous amount for you to learn and understand so please keep an open mind my friend.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: hyphae]
#5647590 - 05/18/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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dont get me wrong, point extremely well taken! the wisest of men know that they know little if anything. and i'm jumping the gun a bit too i realize because anything in a science is just a hypothesis until it the results are consistently repeatable.
one of these days i should do a real grow log though. so far i've shown how to help colonize PF jars and how NOT to do a casing... but that's really just a lot of screwing around. there is much success in the other room to show why i so confidently run my mouth.
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dog
straw dog

Registered: 06/20/02
Posts: 2,790
Loc: Route 66
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5648553 - 05/19/06 12:07 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
do you really KNOW its humidity?
I've run enough of my own experiments to be certain that humidity plays a major role, though other factors contribute as well.
Quote:
at a max of 85%, that's not exactly high in the first place.
Unless you're using a very expensive hygrometer, odds are that you have little idea what your actual humidity is. The cheaper hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate.
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Fascism (fash'izem) n. A governmental system marked by a centralized dictatorship, stringent socioeconomic controls, and often belligerent nationalism. see also: the Bush Administration.
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: dog]
#5649804 - 05/19/06 11:29 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I , myself , have to tend to disagree with this theory .
I have 2 green houses running right now . Plenty of FAE in both . Cool mists running close to 24/7.
One has the humidity around 92%, its full of cased bulk trays , some of you may have seen a thread on it , the other is kept at around 97% as most of the trays are uncased .
The fruits in the 97% environment are covered in mycelium . And not just the bases . They're covered all the way to the caps . The fruits in the 92$ aren't.
My hygrometer isn't super expensive,$40 , but very reliable and accurate.
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: HippieChick]
#5649908 - 05/19/06 12:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well first off thank you as well for input, it is really appreciated to here the experienced folks chime in and give me more food for thought.
But that being said, if you have similar setups that vary in their RH, how can you say for certain that the FAE is exactly the same?
I've also seen your cases, fabulous as they are, they're really tightly packed. Isn't it possible that the sheer volume of mushrooms is producing more CO2, and their bunching leads to stagnant air pockets?
Now that I'm looking out for it, I've noticed it on cakes as well... I've got an old perlite humidified FC that I keep around for a few cakes here or there, different experiments, or growing to full maturity for prints and what have you... and curiously I notice the mushrooms that form from the bottoms of the cake get fuzzy, while the ones that sprout from the top of it don't. I understand we can still point to humidity and that doesn't prove much, because I'd assume a humidity gradient with rising altitude and ones near the bottom are really close to the source of that humidity. I also know of the natural tendancy to seek out evidence that only confirm's ones beliefs so I'm trying to be careful here 
Its too bad that devices to measure gas concentrations are so expensive.
No matter what, the moral of the thread is that its wishful thinking to assume something can be so convienient as relating an observation to a single parameter, when you really need to consider all of them as a group. I don't think anybody can disagree with that.
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IGnosticAbhorI
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5650067 - 05/19/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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hey Cream...
You should do several of these tests...And see where it goes.
Look like you've got yourself a theory, and it's going to get smashed a lot...Unless you do a lot more grows and maybe add a control and such for further testing to see what it actually is. You're second guessing the same as everyone else (to some extent) 
-Gnostic
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creamcorn
mad scientist


Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 2,962
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
#5650132 - 05/19/06 12:59 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'm second guessing myself because they make good points!
Unfortunately I can't come up with any ideas as to how I could regulate air exchange without effecting humidity, and vice versa. They're interrelated... as well as a temperature drop with fresh air, and that's changes RH! Its a big circle. To control it would either require a meter to measure CO2 like I mentioned (and I think they're about 400 bucks?... I'm not concerned THAT much about the fuzz haha), or another way might be to artificially inflate the amounts of CO2 by pumping it in with a tank full of the stuff, but again that costs $$ that I'm not willing to spend just to determine why there's fuzz on the stems. 
Shold I ever happen to fall ass backwards onto such items in the future I'll go for it, or if anybody already has access to such things and wants to let me know how it turns out, all the better (Pot growers use CO2 tanks don't they? I know some of you out there are growin' more than just shrooms hahaha)
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IGnosticAbhorI
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5650158 - 05/19/06 01:06 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Which was my point 
It's something very hard to test, and soooo much easier to guess.
But I'm glad someone tried to think(or thought) of other causes of something 

-Gnostic
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HippieChick
Chicks can do it too!


Registered: 02/20/05
Posts: 5,958
Loc: Midwest
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: creamcorn]
#5650366 - 05/19/06 01:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well , yes they are quite packed in that green house . It is larger and has only one cool mist hooked up to it . Good observation . The other smaller one has the same cool mist and half as many casings .
Unfortunately , your observation doesn't favor your theory as the green house with the most casings , and hence as you suggest more CO2 , is the one without the fuzz and lower humidity . The smaller one with less casings and higher humidity has the fuzziness .
Just food for thought .
Peace,Love,Happiness and Harmony Hippie Chick
-------------------- Peace,Love and Happiness HC Freedoms just another word for nothing left to lose.............. I LUV My Greenhouse http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5545848#5545848 My First Pans http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6212058#6212058
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hyphae
born to grow


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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: HippieChick]
#5650708 - 05/19/06 03:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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FAE and RH go hand in hand, higher humidities create heavier air and most always less fresh air (except in natures open environment). I'm not totally convinced HC that your lower humidity GH has less CO2 unless you've measured it maybe. I have manual CO2 syringes that are priced reasonable for sampling not as consistant as meters but way cheaper!
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Anno [Re: hyphae]
#5650969 - 05/19/06 05:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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hyphae
born to grow


Registered: 12/13/02
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: ]
#5650983 - 05/19/06 05:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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FAE= fresh air exchange. RH= relative humidity. GH= greenhouse. Co2= carbon dioxide.
-------------------- Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy. Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is Gas Exchange vs. FAE "We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"
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KaptKid
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Re: Fuzz on your stems... some info and a theory [Re: hyphae]
#5651260 - 05/19/06 06:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Can you give a link to the CO2 syringes that you are talking about.
Thanks
-------------------- Child of the 60's, Tripping ever since.
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