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OfflineEdgekrusher
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mycelium "piss"
    #5645597 - 05/18/06 09:04 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So i've come to understand that mycelium lets loose a metabolic waste. I'm also under the impression that this waste product is an anti-bacterial liquid created to help ward off contams. I haven't found a ton of solid information about such, but was wondering if anyone could verfiy my knowledge.

I'm not overly concerned, just interested. My last bulk spawn run left about half an inch of the stuff on top of its fully colonized self. I left it there, and it soaked up into the casing layer when it was applied.

What do you guys think about this. There was a large puddle of it on the substrate for days before casing. Do yall just leave it, like I did, or suck it up?


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: Edgekrusher]
    #5645639 - 05/18/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You don't want puddles of anything on your substrate... probably works out if your casing mix soaks it up, but you're also probably better off dabbing a bit of it up first if there's that much of it.

I believe it pisses more when it is in the presence of contams, but I'm not sure if the piss itself is an antibiotic... I do know that it has an acidic pH, which is a bad thing. You want your casing to be around neutral, and some buffer it to be slightly basic to actually cancel out the acidity of the myc piss as it happens. You can imagine what happens when your casing sucks up a bunch of acidic liquid then. Molds actually favor a slightly acidic environment... so perhaps the piss fights bacteria, but leaves you open to mold contams? Will need somebody else to confirm as I said I don't know for sure if it fights bacteria per se, or is just the "result" of fighting it. I can tell you for certain to try and keep that casing at a neutral pH.


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OfflineEdgekrusher
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: creamcorn]
    #5645660 - 05/18/06 09:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The tub in question is already in the FC and I expect pins soon. I figured the reason I had an excess of piss, was due to messed up depth ratios. Maybe 1sq foot of fruiting space for 9-10in of h/poo substrate. Perhaps thats normal, but its more than I've done in previous grows.

But I see where you're coming from with the presence of contams. Although incubated in the dark, the area it was at had constant flow of air. That would deffinitely introduce some nasties.


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: Edgekrusher]
    #5645665 - 05/18/06 09:39 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is sort of deep... so that's totally reasonable, lots of myc = lots of piss. :smile:


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Invisiblecreamcorn
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: creamcorn]
    #5645799 - 05/18/06 10:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Back near my trusty copy of TMC, here's a quote for you:

"Mushroom mycelium exudes a yellowish liquid metabolite that collects as droplets around the myceliated kernels of grain. As the culture ages and the kernels are digested, more metabolic wastes are secreted. Although this secretion is mostly composed of alcohols (ethanol and acetone), in time acids are produced that cause the lowering of The substrate's pH. These waste products are favorable to the propagation of bacteria that thrive in aqueous environments. Small amounts of this fluid do not endanger the culture; excessive waste fluids (where the culture takes on a yellowish hue) are definitely detrimental. If this fluid collects in quantities, the mycelium sickens and eventually dies in its own wastes. Such excessive "sweating" is indicative of one or a combination of the following conditions:

1. Incubation at too high a temperature for the species being cultivated. Note that the temperature within a spawn jar is several degrees higher than the surrounding air temperature.

2. Over-aging of the cultures; too lengthy an incubation period.

3. Lack of gas exchange, encouraging anaerobic contamination."

So if the excretions are actually alcohols, they would have some antibiotic properties... any contam spores that land in the piss would either be dehydrated, or their cell wall breached and broken open effectively killing them.  But it also touches on the acidity aspect I was explaining... so it explains why you'd have an excess of piss, and you see for those reasons its not great to have lots of it laying around.  If you left it and it worked, I wouldn't get all worried about it, its just a little less than ideal to have it all sitting around like that.  Don't let your myc die in a puddle of its own piss, that's not a good way for anybody to go  :cool:


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: creamcorn]
    #5645946 - 05/18/06 11:35 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is what I've been saying for years from experience I do not believe it has anything to do with bacteria present and all to do with lack of gas exchange as well as aged cultures IME. I would say internal jar temps may be as high as a couple of degrees higher than ambient I wouldn't say several at has been my experience anyway. Paul may have changed thoughts here I have not. Any alcohols produced is simply fermintation at it's first stages IMHO.


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OfflineEdgekrusher
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: hyphae]
    #5646006 - 05/18/06 11:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Alright, well the ambient incubation temperature of the tray was about 75-79. It was pretty deep though, so I figured it was generating mid 80s temperatures.

As for incubation length. I probably cut it a day short, since I had to leave town on business. There were very few small spots of poo still poking through before casing. Hasn't posed a problem, and none is expected.

Gas Exchange shouldn't have been a problem. So perhaps my guesstimations of temps in the mid 80s was off. How much extra heat does a bulk tray of similar depth usually emit? As in, should the ambient room temperature be lowered when doing such large trays?

Not to get extremely nit-picky or anything. I just figure if it's not necessary and not beneficial for such an excess; hopefully it can be prevented. If not, it's removal is sound enough advice.


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OfflineDr_Weird
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: Edgekrusher]
    #5646332 - 05/18/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Very interesting indeed...my 1st B+ BRF jars colonized VERY slowly in the incubator kept at 80 F then I moved them to a drawer at about
75 F and they finished. They also produced some mycelial piss in places (which seemed to have led to one getting green mold). Could it be that the orange piss signaled that B+ needs a lower incubation temp than other strains?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: Dr_Weird]
    #5646573 - 05/18/06 02:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The quote above from TMC is outdated and incorrect. The mycelium does exude the metabolytes, which is probably not the best term for them either. 20+ years ago when Paul wrote TMC, he was using the most accurate information he had at the time. That information has changed, and his latest work reflects that, as well as the work of lots of other researchers in the field.

I recently drained about an inch of metabolyte from a colonized jar of rye that was left for several months at a high temperature specifically to produce metabolytes. The metabolytes were placed on a petri dish that had been purposely inoculated with bacteria, so that the metabolytes covered the bacteria. After 36 hours, the bacteria was dead, and mycelial fibers that exist within the metabolytes had begun to grow. Within 10 days the entire dish was colonized with healthy mycelium.

Definitely the presence of bacteria in cultures causes an increase in metabolyte production. The International Journal of Medicinal Mushrooms has some interesting articles on this, but so far they've ignored my requests for permission to post the articles online, so I haven't. I did listen to several speakers at the medicinal mushroom conference last October who are doing research using the metabolytes not only to control contaminants in commercial operations, but as an anti-viral and anti-microbial drug for animals, and soon for humans.

I think as we learn more, we'll find they are not a waste product at all as paul wrote in tmc, but rather medicine being produced by the mycelium itself.

I also make no attempt to soak up the metabolytes when applying a casing layer. The peat/verm soaks it up, and it then spreads out in the casing layer, offering protection. Ever see a spore germinate or bacteria reproduce in the presence of ethanol and acetone? They can't. However, you can see from the microscope pictures below, mycelium colonizes and grows within the secretions themselves. I fail to see how this crystal clear liquid with mycelial fibers growing within could be confused with urination. So far, I've never observed a bladder in mushroom mycelium. Please don't call it 'piss', because that's an inaccurate analogy and it confuses people.

I can't wait to learn more. This is a field of study that is wide open.
RR


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Offlinehyphae
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5647111 - 05/18/06 05:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

We know often times myc will overgrow contams and win and it may be possible that is a direct response to these metabolytes. If these are the first signs of fermenting these alcohols will also kill bacteria quite quickly. I have done G2G's where these metabolytes were present and never had any bacterial infections mute point I know but I would really like to see a controlled comprehensive analysis of this fluid, do you have a link RR by any chance? Also could this be simply water precipitating through the myc from the substrate within as myc will grow in the presence of water. This is definitely open in my book to. :wink:


--------------------
Getting the most out of your casings!, A pinning strategy.
Oyster Shell "Flour" $2 for 1lb. a hell of a deal :wink:
Not what is overlay but rather what overlay is
Gas Exchange vs. FAE

"We all have priorities. I used a closet once setup a nice little lab trouble was all the shit that was in there ended up in the bedroom that pissed off the GF then I ended up dumping her as she was getting in the way of my sterile culture technique! Ya I got priorities too!!!"


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OfflineJonnyDeformed

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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: hyphae]
    #5649134 - 05/19/06 04:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)



Hows that for mycelia metabolyte....


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OfflineEdgekrusher
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Re: mycelium "piss" [Re: Dr_Weird]
    #5651027 - 05/19/06 05:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Dr_Weird said:
Could it be that the orange piss signaled that B+ needs a lower incubation temp than other strains?




The project that brought this thread up was over the B+ strain, but I still wouldn't go that far in your assumptions. I wish I would have took some pictures. I had standing pools of it an inch deep.


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