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OfflineSkeptikos
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Registered: 01/15/06
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Why Do We Need Government?
    #5645506 - 05/18/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Why Do We Need Government?
By Joseph Sobran
May 2, 2006

web page
Quote:

About twenty years ago a very intelligent man, whom I’ll call Robert (he’s actually a sort of composite of several men), told me he was an anarchist. He didn’t believe in any government, period.

At the time I considered myself a conservative, with libertarian leanings. Much as I respected Robert, I believed in limited government under the U.S. Constitution — but none at all? That was taking a good idea too far, I thought.

Notice the illogic of my reaction. I was thinking of a philosophy as a matter of personal taste, as if you could draw an arbitrary line and stop there. “Would you prefer a little bit of government, a moderate amount, or a lot of it?”

After a while (years, actually) it sank in that Robert wasn’t just telling me what quantity of government he’d prefer. He was saying that the whole idea of it was wrong in principle — no matter whether it was democratic, Communist, monarchist, Christian, or something else. He would agree that some are worse than others, but he insisted that all were wrong. Any government is a monopoly of organized force, inherently unjustifiable; and once accepted, it’s bound to get out of control sooner or later.

This notion is hard for Americans to grasp, let alone assent to. After all, we have what looks like a solid rationale for government in our Declaration of Independence, plus a practical plan for keeping it within due limits in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. True, American government has become a staggering tangle of laws, powers, regulations, and taxes, with recurrent wars, public debt, debased money, and countless other evils, but couldn’t this be cured by returning to the Constitution?

That’s what I used to think. Besides, what would we replace the government with? Who would protect us from violent crime and foreign enemies? Who would coin the money? Who would pave the streets and fix the potholes? Others would ask who would feed the destitute, care for the sick and elderly, protect minorities, and cope with myriad other crises, emergencies, and easily imaginable disasters — most of which, by the way, didn’t use to be thought of as responsibilities of government. Everyone has a horrible fantasy that makes the actual horror seem (to him) worth putting up with.

Read the label on a can of soup, and think how many laws and regulations the vendor has to comply with. The rationale for these is that the public has to be protected — from what? Unhealthy ingredients of some sort, I suppose. But would we really be in any peril if there were no government enforcing these costly restrictions? Would it be in the seller’s interest to poison his customers, even if there were no legal penalty for doing so? How often did that happen before all these laws were imposed? Roadside fruit stands are still unregulated. Are these dangers to the purchaser?

The other day I was ticketed, and my car briefly impounded, when a policeman noticed that I was driving with a cracked windshield. My car had passed the required safety inspection and had the required sticker before some vandal had thrown rocks at it, so I thought I was legal. I wasn’t hurting or threatening anyone; I posed no danger I could see. The cop was as polite as a man with a pistol can be, but as he ordered the car towed away I asked him quietly, “Just who are you protecting from me?” The answer was a vague mumble about “the public.”

Later I joked to friends that I’d been “carjacked.” An armed man had seized my car, I explained. Of course he had a badge, a uniform, and some sort of “law” on his side, so I, not he, was the criminal. Heaven help me if I’d tried to defend my property. Self-defense would have been an even more serious offense. By submitting to force, I confined the evil to a mere nuisance. This time.

Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader.

Do you smell a fault? No wonder Frédéric Bastiat described government as “organized plunder.”

Yet for most of my life, I believed that social order depended on government. That is, I believed that freedom depended on force, and ultimately that a great good depended on a great evil. I’m afraid most people believe such things, and accept armed men in uniforms as their benefactors.




--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5645571 - 05/18/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

nice read, but incredibly short sighted.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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OfflineSkeptikos
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Registered: 01/15/06
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Rono]
    #5645640 - 05/18/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Incredibly short sighted? Do you mean that a condition of anarchy in a society would most likely (based upon human history and human nature) lead inevitably to the people either coming under the control of a state from 'outside' or the establishment of a state by certain individuals within their own group seeing the opportunity of a power vacuum and establishing a state anyway? In this case I agree and see anarchy being a temporary condition which would open up a people to the possibility of a worse state than that which they abandon. Though I can imagine that I personally would prefer the uncertainties of anarchy to such things as Nazi or Communist dictatorships.

What about his moral arguments? The idea that the principles involved in certain actions are the same, the only difference between criminality and legality is the nature of the organization (or lack of one) under which some people exercise dominance over others?


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5645670 - 05/18/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Skeptikos stated: The idea that the principles involved in certain actions are the same, the only difference between criminality and legality is the nature of the organization (or lack of one) under which some people exercise dominance over others?



Throughout of all recorded history, can you point to a society, culture, or geographical area were anarchy flourished, and produced something of value? Do you think that the reasons why organizations and institutions exist, are because they can accomplish something more?


Although it is the institution, that deems something "criminal" or "legal", it is to up to the ACT OF THE PERSON.

For example, shooting someone.

If you shot someone, because you want a kilo of coke, not only is that wrong in a moral sense, but illegal, and you will be punished.

Now if you shoot someone, because he has a knife to your wife's throat, there is nothing wrong, with trying to preserve innocent life, and that act is not illegal.

So the in above the instance, the act of shooting someone can be both criminal and legal, the only difference being the intent of the person, so is it only up to the organization to deem something criminal or legal?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

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OfflineRonoS
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5645716 - 05/18/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Though I can imagine that I personally would prefer the uncertainties of anarchy to such things as Nazi or Communist dictatorships




Anarchy and Dictatorship are alot closer than you think.

In both cases, the powerful would control the weak.


--------------------
"Life has never been weird enough for my liking"

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5645777 - 05/18/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5645835 - 05/18/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?




This is the stumbling block which defeats every single anarchist who has ever put words to paper. Even Murray Rothbard (in my opinion the most intelligent of anarchists) had no realistic solution for this one.

The answer to the question "why do we need government" is "to assist the peaceful in protecting themselves from the non-peaceful." That is the only justification for the existence of government. Anything the government does which exceeds that mandate is necessarily an usurpation of power. The only power we as individuals at large possess which we can legitimately and morally grant to others (in this case "others" being the government) is the power of self defense -- specifically to assist us in defending ourselves. Note that soliciting the aid of a third party (government) does not abrogate one's inherent right to defend oneself.

Rothbard and others have proposed elaborate and ultimately contradictory schemes involving ad hoc posses, courts and judges for hire, and competing security agencies in lieu of a single over-arching group with the authority to handle the courts, the cops, and the military. It takes about five minutes of thought to recognize the flaws in these arrangements.

Given the state of human nature as it stands today (and has stood throughout all of recorded history) government is a necessary evil. The only thing left to decide is HOW MUCH government is necessary. Laissez-faire Capitalists (and the Founding Fathers of the US) say the irreducible minimum required is government-run courts, cops, and military. In my over thirty years of political discussion I have yet to come across anyone who can present a convincing argument for government involving itself in anything more than that, nor have I come across anyone who can present a convincing argument for government involving itself in anything less than that.



Phred


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5645872 - 05/18/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
Throughout of all recorded history, can you point to a society, culture, or geographical area were anarchy flourished, and produced something of value?



Yes, Medieval Iceland, and many societies in the Americas before the advent of the Europeans. There is ample historical evidence for this. However, I have already stated my reasoning why anarchy will most likely lead to a state, the history of both Medieval Iceland and the various stateless societies in the America's attests to this. Groups with superior technology and/or numbers can overwhelm weaker groups, or some may see within their own group an opportunity to grab power.

Quote:

Do you think that the reasons why organizations and institutions exist, are because they can accomplish something more?




I believe that states arose many times from conquests. So, in a way, you can 'accomplish' (I don't know if that is an accurate term) or get more by conquering than producing. Somewhere along the line, certain plunderers were wise enough to realize that instead of taking everything, they could just take a portion and leave their victims to produce more to be plundered again. When their source of income came under attack from other plundering groups, they now found it incumbent upon themselves to protect the source of their income and the function of protection was welded with taxation. I also think that some states arose primarily for protection in response to the aggressiveness of other groups or states.

Now of course certain groups in power determine what is criminal or legal. However, a person's actions (legal, illegal, it doesn't matter) can be examined in light of moral principles. If an action is immoral (I am assuming you are not amoral), do you still engage in it if the law says you are required to? If an action is legal but immoral and you are not legally compelled to perform it, do you engage in it anyway? If an action is illegal, but it is moral or doesn't go against your principles to perform it, do you not do it? Does wrong become right, when the law says you can or should do it? Does right or neutral become wrong when the law says you are forbidden to do it?

The essence is this, legality comes down to a matter power, either it's implicit threat to be unleashed or it's actual use, coupled with people's passive acceptance and/or outright support.

As a practical matter, the state may seem to be a necessary institution for the foreseeable future. This is as I see it. As a moral matter it is in conflict with many generally accepted morals (as recorded in many religions and other non-state codes). Most people willingly ignore their stated moral standards and gloss over the incongruities of claiming a moral code and supporting and abiding by laws which upon careful examination are in direct conflict with their moral code. I do not.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos

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OfflineSkeptikos
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Registered: 01/15/06
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5645918 - 05/18/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?



Do you mean in the way the government employees can come and take my belongings? Or do you mean in the way that people who are not government employees can come and take my belongings? ...or perhaps both? *** edit *** BTW, nothing is stopping that from happening now and I do not live in anarchy. What stops most people are their inherent moral sense and fear of getting caught in the act by a well armed homeowner. Most crooks only worry about the cops when they can be seen.

Please read my posts as I am not advocating anarchy as a practical matter, I see it as utopian. I posted Mr Sobran's article because it presented some ideas which (if you are willing to consider them) may stimulate discussion and the examination of the institution of the state from a different perspective.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos

Edited by Skeptikos (05/18/06 11:32 AM)

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5645950 - 05/18/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Skeptikos stated :Yes, Medieval Iceland, and many societies in the Americas before the advent of the Europeans



Show me a link, or cite some evidence, regarding successful societies in pre - America, that embraced anarchy prior to the Europeans. If you think its the Native Americans, you are grossly in error.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (05/18/06 11:38 AM)

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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5646084 - 05/18/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Tell me do you think that the first human ever dropped out of a womb was born into a society ruled by a state?  Logic would tell you that prior to the existence of states that, there was no state (anarchy). Anarchy in the sense used in this thread, does not mean disorder or chaos.  It merely means no state.  The fact is that many societies in America and elsewhere did not have state institutions, they had traditions, moral codes, means of adjudicating disputes and other voluntary organizational structures.  These are not the same as a state.  It's amazing what YOU could find out yourself if you were willing to use Google (and open your mind to learning).  Why don't you start by listing the some STATES that existed in North America prior to the advent of the Europeans.  Correlate that with all the known societies and see if there's a one-to-one match.  Did all societies have a state which controlled them?

A primer, Stateless societies.

Read this book, Society Against The State

Then read this book, Medieval Iceland : Society, Sagas, and Power


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos

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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5646085 - 05/18/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Skeptikos, thank you for bringing up this topic. Deconverting people to anarchy is often difficult, for the simple reason that a belief in a false concept such as the state or god or whatever is merely a projection of one's childhood abuse onto the entire society.

In my experience, I have found many people who admit that they were physically abused by their parents, yet to this day, they will never judge their parents as bad people for doing that. If someone who has been beaten as a child is not able to admit to themselves that they were abused, then their relationship with their parent will continue. What this is implicitly saying is, "If I am abused, but then provided for, that is A OK by me." Well, since almost no one can see this with their own parents, they are also unable to see it with the state.

It's like this...if you are walking down the street and you see some guy beating a 3 year old, I don't think you are going to think he is a very good guy. I personally wouldn't want to be friends with someone who beat their children. But when that 3 year old grows up...he is still going to have a relationship with that man, and if you ask him why, he will inevitably say "Because he is my father." LOL..what a shitty basis for a relationship with someone. Just because someone gave you food and shelter when you were a helpless child doesn't justify their abuse of you. It's that simple.

Remember, when someone tells you about their belief in the state, they are NOT, they are NEVER, talking about the state. They ARE talking about their own families! Keeping this in mind when discussing the state with statists will make your job a lot easier.

For further information about this topic, I highly recommend Stefan Molyneux's podcast, called Freedomain Radio. www.freedomainradio.com
Take your time with it, because this stuff goes deep..and if you yourself have not considered the abuse you suffered through as a child (physical, emotional, sexual, public schools, religious indoctrination of all sorts, etc) then you probably have some work ahead. Good luck.

Edited by nonick (05/18/06 12:20 PM)

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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5646111 - 05/18/06 12:22 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?



Well, most anarchists I've heard from say that justice would be administered by the whole community. There would neighborhood watch types of organizations, in order to keep the peace. The problem I have with this is not that there would be no system of justice, but rather that it would be vigilante justice, with no due process.

Also, I find that there's an issue of scale. If you live in a small farming village, there's little need for government, and in fact this is how mankind subsisted for thousands of years, until developed hierarchy emerged in the Bronze Age. I doubt, however, that anarchy is feasible in modern-day urban environments.


--------------------

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5646121 - 05/18/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

I read the article. I just don't agree with it. I am incredibly open-minded, and am willing to consider anything with fairness. I just have not seen an adequate response to the question I posed above.

While I am coerced to give money involuntarily now, at least I am receiving some benefit from it. While I may not be receiving an efficient return on my forced investment, at least I am receiving something. In a anarchic (is that a word?) society, nothing would hinder the moral-lacking folks who are stopped currently by rule of law. If a group of armed bandits raided my house and stole my belongings, what do I receive in turn? At least when I am being robbed by armed bandits today, I am receiving a variety of public goods in return.

Don't get me wrong, I am a staunch Libertarian, but I just can't see anarchy as working. I am in agreement with you, though, that if anarchy did occur, it would eventually develop (or degrade?) into a form of government.

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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5646127 - 05/18/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

"The answer to the question "why do we need government" is "to assist the peaceful in protecting themselves from the non-peaceful." That is the only justification for the existence of government. "

OK I'll defeat this one quickly for you... If I need to be protected from bad guys, why do people put on fancy clothes and badges and threaten me with jail if I don't pay them...and god forbid I actually try and defend myself against them when they come to my house...

If the point of government is to protect me from harmful people, then they wouldn't steal money from me in the first place to do so. Remember, the target of any government is not some foreign enemy, the real target of a government is its own captive population. The creation of the foreign war is just that..a creation, a fiction, a fabrication, a justification after the fact.

If the government is so good, I wonder why the force us all to attend their indoctrination camps from age 5-18? HEHEHEHE

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5646137 - 05/18/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

If the government is so good, I wonder why the force us all to attend their indoctrination camps from age 5-18?




They don't. You have the option to be home-schooled or to attend private schools.

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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5646141 - 05/18/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

3 accepted definitions of anarchy:

Absence of any form of political authority.

Political disorder and confusion.

Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose



Sketipos: Please look at the third definition really hard. Anarchy, is much more then a stateless society. With all of your blabber about this subject, one would think you would have known that.


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”

Edited by SirTripAlot (05/18/06 12:31 PM)

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5646157 - 05/18/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Also, I find that there's an issue of scale. If you live in a small farming village, there's little need for government, and in fact this is how mankind subsisted for thousands of years, until developed hierarchy emerged in the Bronze Age. I doubt, however, that anarchy is feasible in modern-day urban environments.




Quoted for truth.

I agree 100%. I am not an opponent of the feasability of anarchy in all cases; just in the case of today's urban, technological centers. I think small farming communities could exist like this easily. I do believe that these communities would eventually evolve into some sort of government, though, even if it is a simple one.

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OfflineDoctorJ
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5646158 - 05/18/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

because people are dumb

duh

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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
    #5646168 - 05/18/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
While I am coerced to give money involuntarily now, at least I am receiving some benefit from it. While I may not be receiving an efficient return on my forced investment, at least I am receiving something. In a anarchic (is that a word?) society, nothing would hinder the moral-lacking folks who are stopped currently by rule of law. If a group of armed bandits raided my house and stole my belongings, what do I receive in turn? At least when I am being robbed by armed bandits today, I am receiving a variety of public goods in return.





"coerced to give" is a contradiction in terms. This is classic doublespeak.

"forced investment" More doublespeak.

OK so your condition for accepting robbery as moral is that you recieve something in return? This is rediculous. If you want to live in such a world, fine, go right ahead. Just don't advocate that the same people who steal from you come and steal from me. If the use of force is an acceptable way to interact with people, why advocate the state anyway? If it is good for people in blue uniforms to use guns against you and then provide you with something, then to be morally consistent, it must also be good for you to use guns to steal from people, so long as you provide them with something in return. So I ask, why do you not practice what you preach? (Or am I assuming too much when I assume that you don't use guns in your personal relationships?)

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