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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

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Why Do We Need Government?
#5645506 - 05/18/06 08:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why Do We Need Government? By Joseph Sobran May 2, 2006 web page Quote:
About twenty years ago a very intelligent man, whom I’ll call Robert (he’s actually a sort of composite of several men), told me he was an anarchist. He didn’t believe in any government, period.
At the time I considered myself a conservative, with libertarian leanings. Much as I respected Robert, I believed in limited government under the U.S. Constitution — but none at all? That was taking a good idea too far, I thought.
Notice the illogic of my reaction. I was thinking of a philosophy as a matter of personal taste, as if you could draw an arbitrary line and stop there. “Would you prefer a little bit of government, a moderate amount, or a lot of it?”
After a while (years, actually) it sank in that Robert wasn’t just telling me what quantity of government he’d prefer. He was saying that the whole idea of it was wrong in principle — no matter whether it was democratic, Communist, monarchist, Christian, or something else. He would agree that some are worse than others, but he insisted that all were wrong. Any government is a monopoly of organized force, inherently unjustifiable; and once accepted, it’s bound to get out of control sooner or later.
This notion is hard for Americans to grasp, let alone assent to. After all, we have what looks like a solid rationale for government in our Declaration of Independence, plus a practical plan for keeping it within due limits in our Constitution and Bill of Rights. True, American government has become a staggering tangle of laws, powers, regulations, and taxes, with recurrent wars, public debt, debased money, and countless other evils, but couldn’t this be cured by returning to the Constitution?
That’s what I used to think. Besides, what would we replace the government with? Who would protect us from violent crime and foreign enemies? Who would coin the money? Who would pave the streets and fix the potholes? Others would ask who would feed the destitute, care for the sick and elderly, protect minorities, and cope with myriad other crises, emergencies, and easily imaginable disasters — most of which, by the way, didn’t use to be thought of as responsibilities of government. Everyone has a horrible fantasy that makes the actual horror seem (to him) worth putting up with.
Read the label on a can of soup, and think how many laws and regulations the vendor has to comply with. The rationale for these is that the public has to be protected — from what? Unhealthy ingredients of some sort, I suppose. But would we really be in any peril if there were no government enforcing these costly restrictions? Would it be in the seller’s interest to poison his customers, even if there were no legal penalty for doing so? How often did that happen before all these laws were imposed? Roadside fruit stands are still unregulated. Are these dangers to the purchaser?
The other day I was ticketed, and my car briefly impounded, when a policeman noticed that I was driving with a cracked windshield. My car had passed the required safety inspection and had the required sticker before some vandal had thrown rocks at it, so I thought I was legal. I wasn’t hurting or threatening anyone; I posed no danger I could see. The cop was as polite as a man with a pistol can be, but as he ordered the car towed away I asked him quietly, “Just who are you protecting from me?” The answer was a vague mumble about “the public.”
Later I joked to friends that I’d been “carjacked.” An armed man had seized my car, I explained. Of course he had a badge, a uniform, and some sort of “law” on his side, so I, not he, was the criminal. Heaven help me if I’d tried to defend my property. Self-defense would have been an even more serious offense. By submitting to force, I confined the evil to a mere nuisance. This time.
Carjacking or impoundment? We now have two vocabularies for wrongs, depending on whether private persons or government agents commit them. This is the difference between mass murder and national defense. Between extortion and taxation. Between counterfeiting and inflation. And so on. Other examples will occur to the astute reader.
Do you smell a fault? No wonder Frédéric Bastiat described government as “organized plunder.”
Yet for most of my life, I believed that social order depended on government. That is, I believed that freedom depended on force, and ultimately that a great good depended on a great evil. I’m afraid most people believe such things, and accept armed men in uniforms as their benefactors.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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Rono
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5645571 - 05/18/06 08:50 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nice read, but incredibly short sighted.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Rono]
#5645640 - 05/18/06 09:20 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Incredibly short sighted? Do you mean that a condition of anarchy in a society would most likely (based upon human history and human nature) lead inevitably to the people either coming under the control of a state from 'outside' or the establishment of a state by certain individuals within their own group seeing the opportunity of a power vacuum and establishing a state anyway? In this case I agree and see anarchy being a temporary condition which would open up a people to the possibility of a worse state than that which they abandon. Though I can imagine that I personally would prefer the uncertainties of anarchy to such things as Nazi or Communist dictatorships.
What about his moral arguments? The idea that the principles involved in certain actions are the same, the only difference between criminality and legality is the nature of the organization (or lack of one) under which some people exercise dominance over others?
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5645670 - 05/18/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Skeptikos stated: The idea that the principles involved in certain actions are the same, the only difference between criminality and legality is the nature of the organization (or lack of one) under which some people exercise dominance over others?
Throughout of all recorded history, can you point to a society, culture, or geographical area were anarchy flourished, and produced something of value? Do you think that the reasons why organizations and institutions exist, are because they can accomplish something more?
Although it is the institution, that deems something "criminal" or "legal", it is to up to the ACT OF THE PERSON.
For example, shooting someone.
If you shot someone, because you want a kilo of coke, not only is that wrong in a moral sense, but illegal, and you will be punished.
Now if you shoot someone, because he has a knife to your wife's throat, there is nothing wrong, with trying to preserve innocent life, and that act is not illegal.
So the in above the instance, the act of shooting someone can be both criminal and legal, the only difference being the intent of the person, so is it only up to the organization to deem something criminal or legal?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Rono
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5645716 - 05/18/06 09:58 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Though I can imagine that I personally would prefer the uncertainties of anarchy to such things as Nazi or Communist dictatorships
Anarchy and Dictatorship are alot closer than you think.
In both cases, the powerful would control the weak.
-------------------- "Life has never been weird enough for my liking"
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5645777 - 05/18/06 10:27 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?
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Phred
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5645835 - 05/18/06 10:55 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?
This is the stumbling block which defeats every single anarchist who has ever put words to paper. Even Murray Rothbard (in my opinion the most intelligent of anarchists) had no realistic solution for this one.
The answer to the question "why do we need government" is "to assist the peaceful in protecting themselves from the non-peaceful." That is the only justification for the existence of government. Anything the government does which exceeds that mandate is necessarily an usurpation of power. The only power we as individuals at large possess which we can legitimately and morally grant to others (in this case "others" being the government) is the power of self defense -- specifically to assist us in defending ourselves. Note that soliciting the aid of a third party (government) does not abrogate one's inherent right to defend oneself.
Rothbard and others have proposed elaborate and ultimately contradictory schemes involving ad hoc posses, courts and judges for hire, and competing security agencies in lieu of a single over-arching group with the authority to handle the courts, the cops, and the military. It takes about five minutes of thought to recognize the flaws in these arrangements.
Given the state of human nature as it stands today (and has stood throughout all of recorded history) government is a necessary evil. The only thing left to decide is HOW MUCH government is necessary. Laissez-faire Capitalists (and the Founding Fathers of the US) say the irreducible minimum required is government-run courts, cops, and military. In my over thirty years of political discussion I have yet to come across anyone who can present a convincing argument for government involving itself in anything more than that, nor have I come across anyone who can present a convincing argument for government involving itself in anything less than that.
Phred
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5645872 - 05/18/06 11:12 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Throughout of all recorded history, can you point to a society, culture, or geographical area were anarchy flourished, and produced something of value?
Yes, Medieval Iceland, and many societies in the Americas before the advent of the Europeans. There is ample historical evidence for this. However, I have already stated my reasoning why anarchy will most likely lead to a state, the history of both Medieval Iceland and the various stateless societies in the America's attests to this. Groups with superior technology and/or numbers can overwhelm weaker groups, or some may see within their own group an opportunity to grab power.
Quote:
Do you think that the reasons why organizations and institutions exist, are because they can accomplish something more?
I believe that states arose many times from conquests. So, in a way, you can 'accomplish' (I don't know if that is an accurate term) or get more by conquering than producing. Somewhere along the line, certain plunderers were wise enough to realize that instead of taking everything, they could just take a portion and leave their victims to produce more to be plundered again. When their source of income came under attack from other plundering groups, they now found it incumbent upon themselves to protect the source of their income and the function of protection was welded with taxation. I also think that some states arose primarily for protection in response to the aggressiveness of other groups or states.
Now of course certain groups in power determine what is criminal or legal. However, a person's actions (legal, illegal, it doesn't matter) can be examined in light of moral principles. If an action is immoral (I am assuming you are not amoral), do you still engage in it if the law says you are required to? If an action is legal but immoral and you are not legally compelled to perform it, do you engage in it anyway? If an action is illegal, but it is moral or doesn't go against your principles to perform it, do you not do it? Does wrong become right, when the law says you can or should do it? Does right or neutral become wrong when the law says you are forbidden to do it?
The essence is this, legality comes down to a matter power, either it's implicit threat to be unleashed or it's actual use, coupled with people's passive acceptance and/or outright support.
As a practical matter, the state may seem to be a necessary institution for the foreseeable future. This is as I see it. As a moral matter it is in conflict with many generally accepted morals (as recorded in many religions and other non-state codes). Most people willingly ignore their stated moral standards and gloss over the incongruities of claiming a moral code and supporting and abiding by laws which upon careful examination are in direct conflict with their moral code. I do not.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5645918 - 05/18/06 11:24 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?
Do you mean in the way the government employees can come and take my belongings? Or do you mean in the way that people who are not government employees can come and take my belongings? ...or perhaps both? *** edit *** BTW, nothing is stopping that from happening now and I do not live in anarchy. What stops most people are their inherent moral sense and fear of getting caught in the act by a well armed homeowner. Most crooks only worry about the cops when they can be seen.
Please read my posts as I am not advocating anarchy as a practical matter, I see it as utopian. I posted Mr Sobran's article because it presented some ideas which (if you are willing to consider them) may stimulate discussion and the examination of the institution of the state from a different perspective.
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
Edited by Skeptikos (05/18/06 11:32 AM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5645950 - 05/18/06 11:36 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Skeptikos stated :Yes, Medieval Iceland, and many societies in the Americas before the advent of the Europeans
Show me a link, or cite some evidence, regarding successful societies in pre - America, that embraced anarchy prior to the Europeans. If you think its the Native Americans, you are grossly in error.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (05/18/06 11:38 AM)
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646084 - 05/18/06 12:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Tell me do you think that the first human ever dropped out of a womb was born into a society ruled by a state? Logic would tell you that prior to the existence of states that, there was no state (anarchy). Anarchy in the sense used in this thread, does not mean disorder or chaos. It merely means no state. The fact is that many societies in America and elsewhere did not have state institutions, they had traditions, moral codes, means of adjudicating disputes and other voluntary organizational structures. These are not the same as a state. It's amazing what YOU could find out yourself if you were willing to use Google (and open your mind to learning). Why don't you start by listing the some STATES that existed in North America prior to the advent of the Europeans. Correlate that with all the known societies and see if there's a one-to-one match. Did all societies have a state which controlled them?
A primer, Stateless societies.
Read this book, Society Against The State
Then read this book, Medieval Iceland : Society, Sagas, and Power
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646085 - 05/18/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Skeptikos, thank you for bringing up this topic. Deconverting people to anarchy is often difficult, for the simple reason that a belief in a false concept such as the state or god or whatever is merely a projection of one's childhood abuse onto the entire society.
In my experience, I have found many people who admit that they were physically abused by their parents, yet to this day, they will never judge their parents as bad people for doing that. If someone who has been beaten as a child is not able to admit to themselves that they were abused, then their relationship with their parent will continue. What this is implicitly saying is, "If I am abused, but then provided for, that is A OK by me." Well, since almost no one can see this with their own parents, they are also unable to see it with the state.
It's like this...if you are walking down the street and you see some guy beating a 3 year old, I don't think you are going to think he is a very good guy. I personally wouldn't want to be friends with someone who beat their children. But when that 3 year old grows up...he is still going to have a relationship with that man, and if you ask him why, he will inevitably say "Because he is my father." LOL..what a shitty basis for a relationship with someone. Just because someone gave you food and shelter when you were a helpless child doesn't justify their abuse of you. It's that simple.
Remember, when someone tells you about their belief in the state, they are NOT, they are NEVER, talking about the state. They ARE talking about their own families! Keeping this in mind when discussing the state with statists will make your job a lot easier.
For further information about this topic, I highly recommend Stefan Molyneux's podcast, called Freedomain Radio. www.freedomainradio.com Take your time with it, because this stuff goes deep..and if you yourself have not considered the abuse you suffered through as a child (physical, emotional, sexual, public schools, religious indoctrination of all sorts, etc) then you probably have some work ahead. Good luck.
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 12:20 PM)
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Silversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5646111 - 05/18/06 12:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: In anarchy, what would stop me (or someone more well-armed than me) from coming and taking your belongings?
Well, most anarchists I've heard from say that justice would be administered by the whole community. There would neighborhood watch types of organizations, in order to keep the peace. The problem I have with this is not that there would be no system of justice, but rather that it would be vigilante justice, with no due process.
Also, I find that there's an issue of scale. If you live in a small farming village, there's little need for government, and in fact this is how mankind subsisted for thousands of years, until developed hierarchy emerged in the Bronze Age. I doubt, however, that anarchy is feasible in modern-day urban environments.
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5646121 - 05/18/06 12:24 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I read the article. I just don't agree with it. I am incredibly open-minded, and am willing to consider anything with fairness. I just have not seen an adequate response to the question I posed above.
While I am coerced to give money involuntarily now, at least I am receiving some benefit from it. While I may not be receiving an efficient return on my forced investment, at least I am receiving something. In a anarchic (is that a word?) society, nothing would hinder the moral-lacking folks who are stopped currently by rule of law. If a group of armed bandits raided my house and stole my belongings, what do I receive in turn? At least when I am being robbed by armed bandits today, I am receiving a variety of public goods in return.
Don't get me wrong, I am a staunch Libertarian, but I just can't see anarchy as working. I am in agreement with you, though, that if anarchy did occur, it would eventually develop (or degrade?) into a form of government.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646127 - 05/18/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"The answer to the question "why do we need government" is "to assist the peaceful in protecting themselves from the non-peaceful." That is the only justification for the existence of government. "
OK I'll defeat this one quickly for you... If I need to be protected from bad guys, why do people put on fancy clothes and badges and threaten me with jail if I don't pay them...and god forbid I actually try and defend myself against them when they come to my house...
If the point of government is to protect me from harmful people, then they wouldn't steal money from me in the first place to do so. Remember, the target of any government is not some foreign enemy, the real target of a government is its own captive population. The creation of the foreign war is just that..a creation, a fiction, a fabrication, a justification after the fact.
If the government is so good, I wonder why the force us all to attend their indoctrination camps from age 5-18? HEHEHEHE
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646137 - 05/18/06 12:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
If the government is so good, I wonder why the force us all to attend their indoctrination camps from age 5-18?
They don't. You have the option to be home-schooled or to attend private schools.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646141 - 05/18/06 12:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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3 accepted definitions of anarchy:
Absence of any form of political authority.
Political disorder and confusion.
Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose
Sketipos: Please look at the third definition really hard. Anarchy, is much more then a stateless society. With all of your blabber about this subject, one would think you would have known that.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
Edited by SirTripAlot (05/18/06 12:31 PM)
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646157 - 05/18/06 12:31 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Also, I find that there's an issue of scale. If you live in a small farming village, there's little need for government, and in fact this is how mankind subsisted for thousands of years, until developed hierarchy emerged in the Bronze Age. I doubt, however, that anarchy is feasible in modern-day urban environments.
Quoted for truth.
I agree 100%. I am not an opponent of the feasability of anarchy in all cases; just in the case of today's urban, technological centers. I think small farming communities could exist like this easily. I do believe that these communities would eventually evolve into some sort of government, though, even if it is a simple one.
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DoctorJ


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5646158 - 05/18/06 12:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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because people are dumb
duh
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5646168 - 05/18/06 12:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: While I am coerced to give money involuntarily now, at least I am receiving some benefit from it. While I may not be receiving an efficient return on my forced investment, at least I am receiving something. In a anarchic (is that a word?) society, nothing would hinder the moral-lacking folks who are stopped currently by rule of law. If a group of armed bandits raided my house and stole my belongings, what do I receive in turn? At least when I am being robbed by armed bandits today, I am receiving a variety of public goods in return.
"coerced to give" is a contradiction in terms. This is classic doublespeak.
"forced investment" More doublespeak.
OK so your condition for accepting robbery as moral is that you recieve something in return? This is rediculous. If you want to live in such a world, fine, go right ahead. Just don't advocate that the same people who steal from you come and steal from me. If the use of force is an acceptable way to interact with people, why advocate the state anyway? If it is good for people in blue uniforms to use guns against you and then provide you with something, then to be morally consistent, it must also be good for you to use guns to steal from people, so long as you provide them with something in return. So I ask, why do you not practice what you preach? (Or am I assuming too much when I assume that you don't use guns in your personal relationships?)
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5646176 - 05/18/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: because people are dumb
duh
If people are dumb by nature, then we certainly don't want a government, for the dumb people will be present in it. I certainly don't want dumb people having a monopoly on the use of force in society...just sounds really dangerous to me.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646188 - 05/18/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated:If it is good for people in blue uniforms to use guns against you and then provide you with something, then to be morally consistent, it must also be good for you to use guns to steal from people, so long as you provide them with something in return. So I ask, why do you not practice what you preach?
Anyone understand the above?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5646197 - 05/18/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
If the government is so good, I wonder why the force us all to attend their indoctrination camps from age 5-18?
They don't. You have the option to be home-schooled or to attend private schools.
OK I'll be more precise...If the government is so good, I wonder why they use force to collect tax money and create so called "public schools"? If public schools are a real value, then they will exist without the need for people to use guns to collect money to build them. Can you imagine how people would feel if wal-mart hired an army of men to collect taxes to build places where kids went to learn all of the great things about wal-mart. HEHEHE
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Silversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646202 - 05/18/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nonick seems to be implying that no one can have authority to use force with others. Of course, there will always be people who do use force, whether it is an initiation of force such as murder or theft, or retaliatory force. Even in the absence of government, there would have to be vigilante groups to enforce justice. While they may not be paid in tax dollars, I see little reason why they might not commit other abuses of power.
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Redstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646203 - 05/18/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
"coerced to give" is a contradiction in terms. This is classic doublespeak.
No it's not. It was a negative statement painted (obviously) in a negative light. Anyone who views the word "coerce" in a positive light needs to go back and retake remedial English. Same with "forced investment".
You are not understanding my position. I am not saying that this system of gov't is good for everyone. Hell, I don't care about everyone. This system of gov't has been good for me and most of the people I love. What vested interest do I have in a system where my current comfort is not guaranteed? I don't care if anarchy would be good for most people (which I still don't believe it would be). It wouldn't be good for me.
While I could do with less gov't, no gov't would not be in my best interest.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646237 - 05/18/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: nonick stated:If it is good for people in blue uniforms to use guns against you and then provide you with something, then to be morally consistent, it must also be good for you to use guns to steal from people, so long as you provide them with something in return. So I ask, why do you not practice what you preach?
Anyone understand the above?
When trying to come up with scientific theories, consistency is always key. If relativity is to be accurate, it must apply to all matter at all times and all places. The same is true for theories of morality. To have any meaning at all, they must be consistent for all people, times and places. If it is wrong for you to steal from me, it must be wrong for all people to steal from me. And vice versa, if it is wrong for me to steal from you, it must be wrong for all people to steal from you.
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646255 - 05/18/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Hell, I don't care about everyone."
If you don't care about everyone, then why are you having this conversation? It seems rather pointless, and totally arbitrary to care about X number of people, but not X+1.
This statement alone is an end to this conversation. You have basically just said "I don't care about you". So understanding that, I really don't care to discuss this topic anymore with you.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646263 - 05/18/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Too bad. I'm here to stay.
I will continue to debate topics like this, because they affect my well-being. Whether you decide to ignore my posts does not concern me in the slightest.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646277 - 05/18/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In order to determine what is stealing, one must first determine what belongs to whom. Thus, one must define property rights within a system. As much as libertarians and anarcho-capitalists like to pretend that modern western-style property rights are objective and universal, this simply isn't the case. Property rights are a social construct, as is government.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646289 - 05/18/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Nonick seems to be implying that no one can have authority to use force with others. Of course, there will always be people who do use force, whether it is an initiation of force such as murder or theft, or retaliatory force. Even in the absence of government, there would have to be vigilante groups to enforce justice. While they may not be paid in tax dollars, I see little reason why they might not commit other abuses of power."
So there will always be threats of violence in society. Big deal. To answer your question, I refer you to this article: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux5.html While I recommend that you read the whole thing, question number 2, which deals with how a stateless society would protect itself from "foriegn" invasion, is the one which addresses your above stated concerns.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646296 - 05/18/06 01:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Property rights are a social construct, as is government."
Do you think that rape is immoral? If yes: If two men outvote one women that they should rape her, is the rape which will ensue OK with you?
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 01:09 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646317 - 05/18/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Let's just say that I wouldn't consider it to be a very healthy society. Now, I'm not entirely a cultural relativist. I think there are some things that are just plain wrong. Wait, scratch that. "Right" and "wrong" aren't the kind of terms to be thinking in. "Constructive" and "destructive" are much more useful terms, and a much better way of measuring social norms. A society in which rape is considered ok is obviously going to be a self-destructive and unstable society.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646330 - 05/18/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You didn't answer my question. Is rape immoral?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646339 - 05/18/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Morality" is also a social construct, as well as a very loaded term. It is therefore not useful in discussions of government and society.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646359 - 05/18/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Um...there is no such thing as "government" or "society". There are only people.
Would you be friends with a rapist? Why or why not?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646374 - 05/18/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Um...there is no such thing as "government" or "society". There are only people.
False
Quote:
Would you be friends with a rapist? Why or why not?
No. Because I find their actions reprehensible. One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646428 - 05/18/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
nonick said: Um...there is no such thing as "government" or "society". There are only people.
False
Quote:
Would you be friends with a rapist? Why or why not?
No. Because I find their actions reprehensible. One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions.
Show me your family without showing me individuals, and I will believe you that government exists.
So you think that a rapists actions are reprehensible. What does that mean? Why do you think that?
"One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions." False. Morality is the study of preferred human behavior.
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646498 - 05/18/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: 3 accepted definitions of anarchy:
Absence of any form of political authority.
Political disorder and confusion.
Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose
Sketipos: Please look at the third definition really hard. Anarchy, is much more then a stateless society. With all of your blabber about this subject, one would think you would have known that.
SirTripAlot, please learn to read and go back over my posts. It would also be helpful if you were to familiarize yourself with constructing logical arguments. I was quite clear that this post is (as was Mr Sobran's article) about anarchy as the absence of the state. I cannot be more clear. You're response cannot be more blatantly muddled. You are guilty of the fallacy of equivocation, using a different meaning of the word in an attempt to... to... well what are you attempting?
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Phred]
#5646503 - 05/18/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The answer to the question "why do we need government" is "to assist the peaceful in protecting themselves from the non-peaceful." That is the only justification for the existence of government. Anything the government does which exceeds that mandate is necessarily an usurpation of power.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646510 - 05/18/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why is the giving of tax money considered stealing? I hate paying taxes, however,there is a reason for them.
Private property, is essential to all basic rights in my opinion.
Do you think we would have the current type of infrastructure in the United States if it were anarchist?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646534 - 05/18/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Skeptikos stated : SirTripAlot, please learn to read and go back over my posts. It would also be helpful if you were to familiarize yourself with constructing logical arguments. I was quite clear that this post is (as was Mr Sobran's article) about anarchy as the absence of the state. I cannot be more clear.
I do not need your advice on logical arguments. Just because you would like to narrowly focus on one definition of anarchy, while posing questions, doesn't mean I cannot pose the other side of the coin.
By the way, I am still waiting for your examples of successful anarchy's within pre colonial North America.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646569 - 05/18/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Show me your family without showing me individuals, and I will believe you that government exists.
If government doesn't exist, then hasn't anarchy already been achieved?
Quote:
So you think that a rapists actions are reprehensible. What does that mean? Why do you think that?
I feel compassion for the woman who is raped.
Quote:
"One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions." False. Morality is the study of preferred human behavior.
If morality is simply preferred human behavior, then obviously government is moral, since the vast majority of people are not anarchists.
--------------------
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646668 - 05/18/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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actually, I think the current administration is pretty good evidence that we don't really need government.
I mean, if we can put a monkey in the white house and the country still doesn't fall apart, that pretty much proves to me that the country runs itself no matter how inept the government is.
The sad truth is that private enterprise runs this country. Therefore, the people are responsible for their own downfall. They can't blame an inept government for that. They can blame the businesses they own and patronize, and they can blame themselves for supporting businesses that fuck shit up. But they can't blame the government, because the government is for the most part powerless.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646810 - 05/18/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"If government doesn't exist, then hasn't anarchy already been achieved?"
Government does not exist, but individuals who steal in the name of the government do exist. Its just like when people kill in the name of god. Of course god doesn't exist. Violence in the name of a false concept, whether it be America or God, is not justified. Anarchy is broken down into "a" - without, and "archy" - heirarchical power structures. We certainly have got one of those in society 
"I feel compassion for the woman who is raped."
Why?
"If morality is simply preferred human behavior, then obviously government is moral, since the vast majority of people are not anarchists."
Morality is the study of preferred human behavior. If you take a preferred action, you are being moral. If you take an unpreferred action, you are being immoral. Morality is based on facts, just as all aspects of reality are. When you go to buy a house, you are going to use facts such as its size, age, location and cost to determine if purchasing it is a preferred behavior. Buying a house is a moral decision.
And since when does the number of people who agree with a given proposition make it moral? This is what I was trying to draw out in the rape example. So I ask you again, if four men think that rape is moral, and then rape a woman, does that make the rape moral? Again, this is a yes or no question. Remember, the "vast majority" (ie. 80% of voters) obviously don't think rape is immoral in this example.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646825 - 05/18/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Why is the giving of tax money considered stealing? I hate paying taxes, however,there is a reason for them.
Private property, is essential to all basic rights in my opinion.
Taxation is theft for the simple reason that if you don't pay, you will be sent a nasty letter, and if you continue to not pay, they will come and arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the tax men will shoot you. When I go to the store to buy a gallon of milk, it is not theft because I have voluntarily entered into a contract with the store owner. We have agreed to exchange milk for cash. I never made any such agreement with the tax collectors.
You correctly claim that private property is essential for the protection of human rights. You should easily be able to understand that taxation is a violation of private property. The same as rape is.
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 03:50 PM)
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Ancalagon
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Phred]
#5646916 - 05/18/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sorry if these issues have been dealt with in subsequent posts, don't have time to read this thread in its totality at the moment.
Quote:
Rothbard and others have proposed elaborate and ultimately contradictory schemes involving ad hoc posses, courts and judges for hire, and competing security agencies in lieu of a single over-arching group with the authority to handle the courts, the cops, and the military. It takes about five minutes of thought to recognize the flaws in these arrangements.
It was always my understanding in reading Rothbard that he was not attempting to say what would or should be in an Anarcho-Capitalist society, but rather what might be. He always seemed to take care to note that 'this legal system' or 'that system of private roads' or 'that system of national defense' *might* arise in the kind of society he envisioned, but it also might not. Just a minor quibble but I feel the need to point it out.
For me the moral arguments of libertarianism are completely compelling and I am simply unable to shake them. I believe the initiation of force is wrong absolutely. Whether an individual initiates force or a group of plunderers styling themselves as a government initiates the force they are both initiating force. That having been said, I happen to reject Rothbard's call for nothing less than Anarcho-Capitalism and instead side with the late Harry Browne in his calling for as little government as is possible -- if Anarcho-Capitalism is feasible, that's excellent, but if it's not, Minarchy would be an unbelievable improvement over the current sorry state of affairs.
TO BE CONTINUED..
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646934 - 05/18/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: "If government doesn't exist, then hasn't anarchy already been achieved?"
Government does not exist, but individuals who steal in the name of the government do exist. Its just like when people kill in the name of god. Of course god doesn't exist. Violence in the name of a false concept, whether it be America or God, is not justified. Anarchy is broken down into "a" - without, and "archy" - heirarchical power structures. We certainly have got one of those in society 
Government is a system. Do you believe that something must be a physical object to exist?
Quote:
"I feel compassion for the woman who is raped."
Why?
Because I'm a compassionate person.
Quote:
"If morality is simply preferred human behavior, then obviously government is moral, since the vast majority of people are not anarchists."
Morality is the study of preferred human behavior. If you take a preferred action, you are being moral. If you take an unpreferred action, you are being immoral. Morality is based on facts, just as all aspects of reality are. When you go to buy a house, you are going to use facts such as its size, age, location and cost to determine if purchasing it is a preferred behavior. Buying a house is a moral decision.
And since when does the number of people who agree with a given proposition make it moral? This is what I was trying to draw out in the rape example. So I ask you again, if four men think that rape is moral, and then rape a woman, does that make the rape moral? Again, this is a yes or no question. Remember, the "vast majority" (ie. 80% of voters) obviously don't think rape is immoral in this example.
You're not making sense. Preference is subjective. It may be based on objective factors, but those factors must be interpreted subjectively. You talk about location as an objective variable in buying a house, and yet the value of one location versus another is subjective(one could say "inter-subjective," since the housing market is based on the preferences of the majority). In any case, if morality is the study of "preferred behavior," then whose preference are we talking about, if not society's? Apparently you don't believe in God, so that can't be the measure. Are we talking about your individual preferences?
--------------------
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646981 - 05/18/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated : Taxation is theft for the simple reason that if you don't pay, you will be sent a nasty letter, and if you continue to not pay, they will come and arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the tax men will shoot you
The above statement is not true.
nonick stated: You correctly claim that private property is essential for the protection of human rights. You should easily be able to understand that taxation is a violation of private property. The same as rape is.
Taxation makes private property tangible. Although how disgusting it is to pay a property tax, there are several guarantees that the property you own will stay yours until you sell it.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5647035 - 05/18/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"nonick stated : Taxation is theft for the simple reason that if you don't pay, you will be sent a nasty letter, and if you continue to not pay, they will come and arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the tax men will shoot you
The above statement is not true."
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAH How can you even say that? How can you not realize that if you don't pay your taxes, you will have force used against you? Wow is all I can really say...
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5647064 - 05/18/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK OK I am sorry, I'll stop laughing now. Please explain why my statement is not true.
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 05:11 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5647070 - 05/18/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd personally like to know your position on traffic violations. If I run a stop sign, is the cop stealing from me by writing a ticket?
--------------------
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5647182 - 05/18/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't feed the trolls
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5647280 - 05/18/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated : OK OK I am sorry, I'll stop laughing now. Please explain why my statement is not true
Unless you are the CFO for a major corporation, not paying your taxes will not land you in jail.Your typical citizen might have to pay back taxes when they file, but it would take an exorbitant amount of money to land in prison.
also,
The "tax man" will not shoot you. Unless you can prove the IRS has recently acquired come .44's.....that statement is in fact, not true.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5647317 - 05/18/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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government is inevitable.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5647331 - 05/18/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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the absence of government is not inevitable, but highly probable in the near future
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5647344 - 05/18/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Richard Hatch, who won $1 million in the debut season of "Survivor," has been sentenced to more than four years in prison for failing to pay taxes on his reality TV prize and other income."
"On June 16, 1931, Al Capone pled guilty to tax evasion and prohibition charges. He then boasted to the press that he had struck a deal for a two-and-one-half year sentence, but the presiding judge informed him he, the judge, was not bound by any deal. Capone then changed his plea to not guilty.
On October 18, 1931, Capone was convicted after trial, and on November 24, was sentenced to eleven years in Federal prison, fined $50,000 and charged $7,692 for court costs, in addition to $215,000 plus interest due on back taxes. The six-month Contempt of Court sentence was to be served concurrently."
I am not bothering to supply links because this shit is common knowledge.
--------------------
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5647402 - 05/18/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Like I said...try to resist the tax collector when he comes to your door. You will end up shot.
If any masked robber comes to your door and trys to take 40% of your money, you are going to shoot the fucker and thats that. But try to shoot the tax men when they come..well well well..you're in for a whole world of hurtin'. They have all the guns they want, and you can only get off so many rounds before they just blow your house up or burn you out. ...And they say that anarchists like to set fires and blow stuff up... HA!
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 07:05 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5647806 - 05/18/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion
By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means. Tax evasion usually entails taxpayers deliberately misrepresenting or concealing the true state of their affairs to the tax authorities to reduce their tax liability, and includes, in particular, dishonest tax reporting (such as declaring less income, profits or gains than actually earned; or overstating deductions).
Tax evasion is a crime in almost all countries and subjects the guilty party to fines or imprisonment.
Like I said, if you are a CFO dodging taxes for a corporation or someone in an extremely high tax bracket, yes those are punishable by time in prison.
BUT
For your typical citizen within the USA, you will get a letter in the mail from the IRS stating what you owe. If you don not pay it will accrue in the form of back taxes.....no one will come to your house and imprison you, or shoot at you.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


Registered: 05/25/05
Posts: 1,074
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5648986 - 05/19/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In order for anarchy to work, no one could organise and take power by force. Everyone would have to agree to be peaceful and work harmoniously. But this will never happened. There will always be a people that will organise and take over, feeding off the majority of the people, sometimes they will treat the people better than other times, but it all depends on the people. If we really don't like something, since we support the government with there taxes, we have our ways of changing the governments mind. We can stop working. We storm buildings. We can march in great crowds in order to get the attention of even greater crowds. They can't just use there army to kill us all if we disobey, they NEED us. They depend on you and me. It is up to US how they treat US.
In order to have a true, great democracy, full cooperation and attendance of the people must be REQUIRED. It must be law. The journalists have an important role in not being bribed by the power, in reporting the full story. The people have a great responsibility of going out of there way to organise and respond to unfair laws. There will always be an organised crime that takes power, the Bush Administration is a great example, but in the end the people will be the "deciders."
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
Edited by beatnicknick (05/19/06 02:56 AM)
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: beatnicknick]
#5649644 - 05/19/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"It is up to US how they treat US."
This is patently false. Anyone who would say such a thing is just demonstrating that they have fallen victim to the lies of the indocrination camps where this bullshit is propaganized every day for 12 years of a young person's life.
I'd like you to prove that it's up to you how you are treated by the government by going to your local police station and smoking a joint right outside the front door, and when they break out the handcuffs, all you have to do to prove your point is politely ask them to put the cuffs away and leave you alone. Post the video after you do this, please. I really would like to see this done.
Stop believing the lies. Think for yourself for a change, please. All of us will be for the better.
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 10:35 AM)
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5649681 - 05/19/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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He is right. It is up to one's self to make changes in the system. Of course you can't walk up to a police station and do something that is against the law. That is just silly. What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform. It's easy to sit here and bitch on an internet board. Things don't get fixed that way, though. Only by busting your ass for a cause will anything ever change.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5649760 - 05/19/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Redstorm, if you think that it's up to you how you are treated by the government, I invite you to attempt the little experiment I outlined above. If you are unsuccessful--if you are not treated as you wish to be treated by the men with the guns, then you are wrong when you say that you have a say in how you are treated by the people in government.
It's as simple as that.
"What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform."
This is also bullshit. I am arguing against "the system" entirely. If you work within the system to achieve reform, you are doing nothing but increasing its size and scope. Government always grows -- until it collapses from within, as did the Egyptian, Roman and Soviet empires, among others.
My rights don't exist because some guy in a suit somewhere write them down on a piece of paper. If you tell yourself lies such as that..then your rights can be revoked by the next guy to come along.
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 11:13 AM)
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Phred
Fred's son


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5649768 - 05/19/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
My rights don't exist because some guy in a suit somewhere write them down on a piece of paper. If you tell yourself lies such as that..then your rights can be revoked by the next guy to come along.
...which is precisely the problem with anarchy. Anyone more powerful (or even just less moral) than yourself can violate your rights with impunity. If you object to having your rights violated, why on earth do you propose a system (anarchy) under which your rights are even less protected than they are in a minarchy?
Phred
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5649791 - 05/19/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why do you assume that my rights wouldn't be protected without a government? Heck, the people in the government violate 750,000 drug users rights each year.
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 11:27 AM)
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5649843 - 05/19/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"should we or should we not have government" is the wrong question. we should not have government. unfortunately, government is inevitable, and it will be until every person on earth treats every other person on earth in honesty and peace. the best we can do until then is establish better government to protect us against worse government. it is a necessary evil.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5649911 - 05/19/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wilshire, when you say that government is inevitable, you are really saying is that when two people interact, it is inevitable that one will use force against the other. I do not agree with this. I do not use force in my personal relationships. But for a little hypothetical: So if I ever met you on the street and I used force against you, would you just sit there and take it, claiming that it was a "necessary evil" in your life?
As a side note, you might want to refer to your own sig banner to help you figure this stuff out a bit.
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 12:21 PM)
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650006 - 05/19/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's all fine if there are only two of you of equal strength in the whole world. Reproduction might be tough, seeing as how those two are either both male or both female. But that's probably best because sooner or later one of their progeny is likely to be an asshole and enslave it's siblings
--------------------
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650007 - 05/19/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wilshire, when you say that government is inevitable, you are really saying is that when two people interact, it is inevitable that one will use force against the other.
no i am not. check my sig banner and look for "straw man fallacy".
what i am saying is that there are people in society who will violate the rights of other people. there are people who will kill and steal. as long as these people exist, government will be inevitable (and necessary).
if anarchy were possible, it would already exist. the reason it doesn't is that there are people in the world who won't let it. there probably always will be.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5650040 - 05/19/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"what i am saying is that there are people in society who will violate the rights of other people."
Are you saying that it is part of human nature to be evil? If so, then we certainly don't want a government. "Government" is merely a bunch of people with a complete monopoly on the use of force in society. If people are innately evil, then we certainly don't want some people to have a monopoly on the use of force, for they will inevitably be evil themselves.
"if anarchy were possible, it would already exist. the reason it doesn't is that there are people in the world who won't let it. there probably always will be. "
It already does exist in many areas of life. Your personal relationships, for one. The internet is also an anarchy. The eBay user rating system, wikipedia..the list goes on.
You also have contradicted yourself here by saying that government is necessary AND that the only reason it exists is because people let it.
Some people let themselves get fat, does that make getting fat a necessary thing? Some people use force, does that make force a necessary thing? No, it simply means that some people choose to get fat and some choose to use force.
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 12:35 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650055 - 05/19/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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No one's saying that humans are innately anything. Some people are more prone to violence than others. The great accomplishment of civilization is that it manages to keep the bullies from taking control over the weak.
--------------------
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650092 - 05/19/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you saying that it is part of human nature to be evil?
i am saying that it is the nature of some human beings to initiate force against some other human beings.
f so, then we certainly don't want a government.
of course we don't want government, but as long as people exist who initiate force, there will always be government.
"Government" is merely a bunch of people with a complete monopoly on the use of force in society.
your definition needs refinement. no government has a complete monopoly on the use of force. a government claims, and is effective in enforcing, a monopoly on the non-emergency use of force in a given geographic area. as you are probably aware, government can be anything from local gangs to regional warlords to democratic states.
It already does exist in many areas of life.
of course. it exists in all areas of my life where i am not the victim or perpetrator of violence or fraud. as soon as i become one or the other, there is no more anarchy.
You also have contradicted yourself here by saying that government is necessary AND that the only reason it exists is because people let it.
did i say the only reason it exists is because people let it? no. i said that the only reason it exists is because people cause it to exist.
you do not understand my argument at all.
here is a question for you. if you can answer it satisfactorily, you get to keep being an anarchist without sticking your head in the sand. otherwise you should probably admit that your position is untenable and move on:
how do you propose to prevent the establishment of government?
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650096 - 05/19/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650112 - 05/19/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.
I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.
--------------------
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650119 - 05/19/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Redstorm, if you think that it's up to you how you are treated by the government, I invite you to attempt the little experiment I outlined above. If you are unsuccessful--if you are not treated as you wish to be treated by the men with the guns, then you are wrong when you say that you have a say in how you are treated by the people in government.
I addressed that already. It would not work. That is why I am willing to dedicate my life to fix this stagnant hulking machine
It's as simple as that.
"What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform."
This is also bullshit. I am arguing against "the system" entirely. If you work within the system to achieve reform, you are doing nothing but increasing its size and scope. Government always grows -- until it collapses from within, as did the Egyptian, Roman and Soviet empires, among others.
Incorrect. There are reformers all over the United States who's key purpose is to reduce the size of the gov't. I am one of those people.
My rights don't exist because some guy in a suit somewhere write them down on a piece of paper. If you tell yourself lies such as that..then your rights can be revoked by the next guy to come along.
I never said anyone gave you your rights. They are inherently yours; that much is certain. They were granted to you by nature. If they are restricted or revoked by someone, it is your duty as a citizen to take them back. You also fail to realize or acknowledge that you have no guarantee of freedom under an anarchic system. In anarchy, one has absolute freedom, as does everyone else. Unfortunately, this freedom, being absolute, also allows one to trespass on other's freedoms.
As long as you are willing to wallow in your self-pity and do nothing about the current political climate, you will continue to live a life of revoked rights. The only way to regain your rights is to work for them. Rights are not a privilege, they are a responsibility. Being a responsibility, you have to pay your dues to maintain them. These dues come in the form of hard work and thankless labor. If your preferred life is anarchy, what have you done to achieve it?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650122 - 05/19/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
Some people let themselves get fat, does that make getting fat a necessary thing? Some people use force, does that make force a necessary thing?
Yes, unless you like being a slave to people who use force
--------------------
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5650137 - 05/19/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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wilshire said: Are you saying that it is part of human nature to be evil?
i am saying that it is the nature of some human beings to initiate force against some other human beings.
So it is human nature, eh? How many "evil" people are there in the world? You can ballpark it for me, or at least provide some evidence to prove your point.
f so, then we certainly don't want a government.
of course we don't want government, but as long as people exist who initiate force, there will always be government.
Not true. Serial killers will exist long after government is gone.
"Government" is merely a bunch of people with a complete monopoly on the use of force in society.
your definition needs refinement. no government has a complete monopoly on the use of force. a government claims, and is effective in enforcing, a monopoly on the non-emergency use of force in a given geographic area. as you are probably aware, government can be anything from local gangs to regional warlords to democratic states.
Sorry, government is a monopoly on order in a society. Government imposes a singular value system onto the entire society.
It already does exist in many areas of life.
of course. it exists in all areas of my life where i am not the victim or perpetrator of violence or fraud. as soon as i become one or the other, there is no more anarchy.
Ok... didn't you just say a minute ago that anarchy cannot exist in a world were people use force?
here is a question for you. if you can answer it satisfactorily, you get to keep being an anarchist without sticking your head in the sand. otherwise you should probably admit that your position is untenable and move on:
how do you propose to prevent the establishment of government?
Um..government has already been established. A more relevant question would be to ask how I propose to eliminate the force that is used against me in my own life. My answer to this is simple: I don't tollerate the use of force against me when I have the ability to stop it, such as if a bully is picking on me and I have the ability to leave the situation. In scenarios where I can't win, such as when the tax man comes to my door, I simply pay. But I call him immoral for what he is doing, and try to advocate anarchy to as many people as possible, so that we can resist government together.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5650142 - 05/19/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
Quote:
nonick said:
Some people let themselves get fat, does that make getting fat a necessary thing? Some people use force, does that make force a necessary thing?
Yes, unless you like being a slave to people who use force
I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Try responding to the fat person example, that may help me understand your response.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650154 - 05/19/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"As long as you are willing to wallow in your self-pity and do nothing about the current political climate, you will continue to live a life of revoked rights. The only way to regain your rights is to work for them. Rights are not a privilege, they are a responsibility. Being a responsibility, you have to pay your dues to maintain them. These dues come in the form of hard work and thankless labor. If your preferred life is anarchy, what have you done to achieve it? "
Well, I am on here trying to advocate anarchy. I have done plenty to achieve anarchy in my personal life as well.
Does it not appear to you that I am working to enforce my own rights? Why do you think I am on here arguing that government is immoral?
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5650160 - 05/19/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
nonick said: Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.
I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.
So you don't believe in original sin, then? You're not a very good Christian if you don't...
...LOL. What was jesus for then?
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 01:09 PM)
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650163 - 05/19/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated: In scenarios where I can't win, such as when the tax man comes to my door, I simply pay.
If you are so convicted of your beliefs, why violate them?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650169 - 05/19/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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So it is human nature, eh? How many "evil" people are there in the world? You can ballpark it for me, or at least provide some evidence to prove your point.
as long as there is more than one, there cannot be anarchy. i don't think it's necessary to provide evidence that there are people who exist who would kill and steal. nor is it necessary to provide evidence that there are people who exist who would form governments: governments exist.
Not true. Serial killers will exist long after government is gone.
um... you cannot have anarchy with serial killers running about. if there are people commiting violence or fraud against eachother, someone is claiming and enforcing a monopoly on the use of force. government exists. anarchy does not exist except where there is absolute peace.
you say that anarchy can exist... when anarchy does exist, how do you propose to prevent the establishment of government?.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650171 - 05/19/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
nonick said: Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.
I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.
So you don't believe in original sin, then? You're not a very good Christian if you don't...
No one has any right to tell anyone else that they are not a good "Christian". Just because he does not subscribe to a certain belief held by the established church, that does not make him any less devout. I have found that the best Christians are the ones who read the documents themselves and then make their own judgedments based on that, not the official stand of the church.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5650178 - 05/19/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: nonick stated: In scenarios where I can't win, such as when the tax man comes to my door, I simply pay.
If you are so convicted of your beliefs, why violate them?
My goal in life is not to resist armed robbers. If someone holds a gun to my head and asks for my wallet, I will certainly give it to him.
My goal in life is happiness. I will not be happy if I am in jail.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5650188 - 05/19/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"as long as there is more than one, there cannot be anarchy."
So if there is just one person who is evil, there can be anarchy, but if there are two, there cannot be?
"you cannot have anarchy with serial killers running about."
So if society was all anarchic, except for one serial killer, you would call him a government?
There are many ways to prevent the re-establishment of government. Educating people about the evils of government would be a nice first step. Halting anyone in his tracks who tries to re-establish government is also important.
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650196 - 05/19/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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So are you happy now , since you are not in jail?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650203 - 05/19/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"No one has any right to tell anyone else that they are not a good "Christian". Just because he does not subscribe to a certain belief held by the established church, that does not make him any less devout. I have found that the best Christians are the ones who read the documents themselves and then make their own judgedments based on that, not the official stand of the church. "
If someone does not take the official stand of the church, then they are not a Christian, now are they? Christianity has to be defined somewhere, and I usually go by church doctrine to define religions. If this guy doesn't believe in original sin, then he is simply some variant of Christianity.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5650208 - 05/19/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well, not being in jail certainly helps me to achieve my values.
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650213 - 05/19/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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So if there is just one person who is evil, there can be anarchy, but if there are two, there cannot be?
i meant to say one or more, not more than one. if there is just one person who is not peaceful in 100% of situations, there cannot be anarchy.
So if society was all anarchic, except for one serial killer, you would call him a government?
yes.
Educating people about the evils of government would be a nice first step.
if that worked it would have already worked by now.
Halting anyone in his tracks who tries to re-establish government is also important
that does work. who will halt them in their tracks?
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5650249 - 05/19/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"i meant to say one or more, not more than one. if there is just one person who is not peaceful in 100% of situations, there cannot be anarchy."
uh...So you're the one aruging that government is necessary, right? Which is a worse evil in society, one serial killer, or an entire heirarchical structure with a million man army? If government is a necessary evil, which form of it would you choose? The one with the army or the one where its just ONE serial killer? I know which one I would choose...
Halting anyone in his tracks who tries to re-establish government is also important
that does work. who will halt them in their tracks?
Well if I find out that some guy is stealing from me, I will certainly work to stop him. Wouldn't you do the same?
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650303 - 05/19/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Well if I find out that some guy is stealing from me, I will certainly work to stop him. Wouldn't you do the same?
what if he's stronger than you or he brings some help? what if you are incapable of stopping him?
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5650612 - 05/19/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
wilshire said: Well if I find out that some guy is stealing from me, I will certainly work to stop him. Wouldn't you do the same?
what if he's stronger than you or he brings some help? what if you are incapable of stopping him?
have you not heard of the police? sheesh!
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650626 - 05/19/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
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nonick said: Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.
I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.
So you don't believe in original sin, then? You're not a very good Christian if you don't...
...LOL. What was jesus for then?
First of all, "sin" simply means "to miss the mark." It doesn't mean we're evil, just flawed. Second, Jesus died and resurrected to show us that the material world is not as real as it seems.
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5650661 - 05/19/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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So you can disobey god all you want, and you're not evil?
What is morality then?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650669 - 05/19/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: So you can disobey god all you want, and you're not evil?
What is morality then?
Why do insist on twisting my words? I must say, you are the master of the straw man.
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Phred
Fred's son


Registered: 10/18/00
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650747 - 05/19/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In response to wilshire's question:
"what if he's stronger than you or he brings some help? what if you are incapable of stopping him?"
nonick replies:
Quote:
have you not heard of the police? sheesh!
Umm, yeah, we minarchists have heard of the police. As a matter of fact, we hold that the judicial system (which of course includes the police) is one of the only two legitimate reasons why government is necessary; the other legitimate reason being the military.
Phred
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650871 - 05/19/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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have you not heard of the police? sheesh!
Please support our sponsors.
we're talking about anarchy, where police do not exist.
how do you deal with violent people in an anarchist non-system?
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5650965 - 05/19/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them? I value police, and I would certainly pay for their services if someone was offering them and I could aforrd it. Would you think that indoor plumbing wouldn't exist in the absence of the state? Come on here people, this stuff is really not that difficult!
Here is a great article about violent crime in an anarchy:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux2.html
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 05:17 PM)
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wilshire
free radical


Registered: 05/11/05
Posts: 2,421
Loc: SE PA
Last seen: 14 years, 3 days
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650981 - 05/19/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them?
would these police enforce a monopoly on the non-emergency use of force?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5650993 - 05/19/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them? I value police, and I would certainly pay for their services if someone was offering them and I could aforrd it. Would you think that indoor plumbing wouldn't exist in the absence of the state? Come on here people, this stuff is really not that difficult!
Here is a great article about violent crime in an anarchy:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux2.html
That's not an article. It's a fantasy.
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Gijith
Daisy Chain Eater

Registered: 12/04/03
Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5651000 - 05/19/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Read the article. I think I heard Paulie Walnuts offer an identical method of protection last week on the Sopranos.
-------------------- what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?
Edited by Gijith (05/19/06 07:13 PM)
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Gijith]
#5651317 - 05/19/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I am sure a police for hire system, would end all oppression and corruption!!!
What a fucking pipe dream!!!
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5651837 - 05/19/06 11:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them? I value police, and I would certainly pay for their services if someone was offering them and I could aforrd it. Would you think that indoor plumbing wouldn't exist in the absence of the state? Come on here people, this stuff is really not that difficult!
Here is a great article about violent crime in an anarchy:
http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux2.html
So, if you can not afford police protectiom you are shit out of luck?
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kaiowas
lest we baguette


Registered: 07/14/03
Posts: 5,501
Loc: oz
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5652492 - 05/20/06 07:18 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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If one wants something totally different from the system at hand, then I think they might be barking up the wrong tree. On a philisophical level, I agree with the author, on a practical level I do not. If this question were asked literally thousands of years ago in certain countries, then on a practical level I would say go for it.
The fact of the matter is this; there are too many people in the world with a system that has been evolving since man starting developing steady agriculture and 'civilisation' to go from government to no government. If you want change, it needs to be gradual, meaning that anything that you think should be, really shouldn't. It needs to be partiall spontaneous, not some set idea of what 'should be' In common sense terms what seems right to you is not necessarily right for me.
Mentally, our collective have instilled in our consciousness that some sort of government is needed. No matter how much you disagree, going totally against the grain is counterproductive at best. What should go on is to redevelope the system slowly and steady. Fine tune it if you will, but one key thing is missing and it has to deal with the way society acts as a collective.
What I referring to is the way we view each other. as long as we lack compassion for each other and the environment, and as long as we contnue to distrust in each other, nothing remotely close to change can come about.
why does the government even attempt to listen to their citizens...its because they want to stay in power, not because they care about those in need, not because they try to understand suffering. That's why aid organizations such as world vision will never have the impact they claim they will have, cause they are business, about making money first and people second.
Anarchy in its purest and most beautiful form won't happen until humanity is mentally ready for it. until the majority can look past our own noses can we begin to view and focus on utopia.
The author asks, "But would we really be in any peril if there were no government enforcing these costly restrictions? Would it be in the seller’s interest to poison his customers, even if there were no legal penalty for doing so? How often did that happen before all these laws were imposed? Roadside fruit stands are still unregulated. Are these dangers to the purchaser?"
The restictions are there because people forced the governments on some level to have them. many times it is in the best interests for a company to poisen their customers if its profitable. its ridiculous to not trust governments and yet instill any kind of faith in companies. Both companies and governments run on the same principle, two selfish sides of the same coin. I'm sure there are good companies and bad ones, but the same can be said for governments. what matters if those running it have compassion for people.
how dare the author base his argument on the grounds of for taking his car, when millions of people die every year unnecessarily because of famine. again, people need to look past their own noses before any real change can be seen.
-------------------- Annnnnnd I had a light saber and my friend was there and I said "you look like an indian" and he said "you look like satan" and he found a stick and a rock and he named the rock ooga booga and he named the stick Stick and we both thought that was pretty funny. We got eaten alive by mosquitos but didn't notice til the next day. I stepped on some glass while wading in the swamp and cut my foot open, didn't bother me til the next day either....yeah it was a good time, ended the night by buying some liquor for minors and drinking nips and going to he diner and eating chicken fingers, and then I went home and went to bed.
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5653072 - 05/20/06 11:46 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said: He is right. It is up to one's self to make changes in the system. Of course you can't walk up to a police station and do something that is against the law. That is just silly. What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform. It's easy to sit here and bitch on an internet board. Things don't get fixed that way, though. Only by busting your ass for a cause will anything ever change.
It's not going to happen with one person. If all of America went out and smoked a joint in front of a cop station the reaction of the police would be a little different.
However, if we cannot get the support of a great majority of the country, then either educate the other half or accept defeat in the marijuana law area.
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
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