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Offlinewilshire
free radical
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650169 - 05/19/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So it is human nature, eh? How many "evil" people are there in the world? You can ballpark it for me, or at least provide some evidence to prove your point.

as long as there is more than one, there cannot be anarchy. i don't think it's necessary to provide evidence that there are people who exist who would kill and steal. nor is it necessary to provide evidence that there are people who exist who would form governments: governments exist.

Not true. Serial killers will exist long after government is gone.

um... you cannot have anarchy with serial killers running about. if there are people commiting violence or fraud against eachother, someone is claiming and enforcing a monopoly on the use of force. government exists. anarchy does not exist except where there is absolute peace.

you say that anarchy can exist... when anarchy does exist, how do you propose to prevent the establishment of government?.


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650171 - 05/19/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

nonick said:
Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.



I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.




So you don't believe in original sin, then? You're not a very good Christian if you don't...




No one has any right to tell anyone else that they are not a good "Christian". Just because he does not subscribe to a certain belief held by the established church, that does not make him any less devout. I have found that the best Christians are the ones who read the documents themselves and then make their own judgedments based on that, not the official stand of the church.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5650178 - 05/19/06 01:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

SirTripAlot said:
nonick stated:
In scenarios where I can't win, such as when the tax man comes to my door, I simply pay.



If you are so convicted of your beliefs, why violate them?





My goal in life is not to resist armed robbers. If someone holds a gun to my head and asks for my wallet, I will certainly give it to him.

My goal in life is happiness. I will not be happy if I am in jail.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
    #5650188 - 05/19/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"as long as there is more than one, there cannot be anarchy."

So if there is just one person who is evil, there can be anarchy, but if there are two, there cannot be?


"you cannot have anarchy with serial killers running about."

So if society was all anarchic, except for one serial killer, you would call him a government?

There are many ways to prevent the re-establishment of government. Educating people about the evils of government would be a nice first step. Halting anyone in his tracks who tries to re-establish government is also important.


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650196 - 05/19/06 01:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So are you happy now , since you are not in jail?


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“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650203 - 05/19/06 01:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"No one has any right to tell anyone else that they are not a good "Christian". Just because he does not subscribe to a certain belief held by the established church, that does not make him any less devout. I have found that the best Christians are the ones who read the documents themselves and then make their own judgedments based on that, not the official stand of the church. "

If someone does not take the official stand of the church, then they are not a Christian, now are they? Christianity has to be defined somewhere, and I usually go by church doctrine to define religions. If this guy doesn't believe in original sin, then he is simply some variant of Christianity.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
    #5650208 - 05/19/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well, not being in jail certainly helps me to achieve my values.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650213 - 05/19/06 01:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So if there is just one person who is evil, there can be anarchy, but if there are two, there cannot be?

i meant to say one or more, not more than one. if there is just one person who is not peaceful in 100% of situations, there cannot be anarchy.

So if society was all anarchic, except for one serial killer, you would call him a government?

yes.

Educating people about the evils of government would be a nice first step.

if that worked it would have already worked by now.

Halting anyone in his tracks who tries to re-establish government is also important

that does work. who will halt them in their tracks?


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
    #5650249 - 05/19/06 01:30 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"i meant to say one or more, not more than one. if there is just one person who is not peaceful in 100% of situations, there cannot be anarchy."

uh...So you're the one aruging that government is necessary, right? Which is a worse evil in society, one serial killer, or an entire heirarchical structure with a million man army? If government is a necessary evil, which form of it would you choose? The one with the army or the one where its just ONE serial killer? I know which one I would choose...



Halting anyone in his tracks who tries to re-establish government is also important

that does work. who will halt them in their tracks?




Well if I find out that some guy is stealing from me, I will certainly work to stop him. Wouldn't you do the same?


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650303 - 05/19/06 01:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Well if I find out that some guy is stealing from me, I will certainly work to stop him. Wouldn't you do the same?

what if he's stronger than you or he brings some help? what if you are incapable of stopping him?


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
    #5650612 - 05/19/06 03:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

wilshire said:
Well if I find out that some guy is stealing from me, I will certainly work to stop him. Wouldn't you do the same?

what if he's stronger than you or he brings some help? what if you are incapable of stopping him?




have you not heard of the police? sheesh!


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650626 - 05/19/06 03:21 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

nonick said:
Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.



I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.




So you don't believe in original sin, then? You're not a very good Christian if you don't...


...LOL. What was jesus for then?



First of all, "sin" simply means "to miss the mark." It doesn't mean we're evil, just flawed. Second, Jesus died and resurrected to show us that the material world is not as real as it seems.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5650661 - 05/19/06 03:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

So you can disobey god all you want, and you're not evil?

What is morality then?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650669 - 05/19/06 03:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
So you can disobey god all you want, and you're not evil?

What is morality then?



Why do insist on twisting my words? I must say, you are the master of the straw man.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650747 - 05/19/06 03:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

In response to wilshire's question:

"what if he's stronger than you or he brings some help? what if you are incapable of stopping him?"

nonick replies:

Quote:

have you not heard of the police? sheesh!




Umm, yeah, we minarchists have heard of the police. As a matter of fact, we hold that the judicial system (which of course includes the police) is one of the only two legitimate reasons why government is necessary; the other legitimate reason being the military.




Phred


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650871 - 05/19/06 04:35 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)


have you not heard of the police? sheesh!

Please support our sponsors.


we're talking about anarchy, where police do not exist.

how do you deal with violent people in an anarchist non-system?


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
    #5650965 - 05/19/06 05:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them? I value police, and I would certainly pay for their services if someone was offering them and I could aforrd it. Would you think that indoor plumbing wouldn't exist in the absence of the state? Come on here people, this stuff is really not that difficult!

Here is a great article about violent crime in an anarchy:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux2.html


Edited by nonick (05/19/06 05:17 PM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650981 - 05/19/06 05:22 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them?

would these police enforce a monopoly on the non-emergency use of force?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650993 - 05/19/06 05:27 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
Why in the heck would police not exist in the absence of coersive taxation to fund them? I value police, and I would certainly pay for their services if someone was offering them and I could aforrd it. Would you think that indoor plumbing wouldn't exist in the absence of the state? Come on here people, this stuff is really not that difficult!

Here is a great article about violent crime in an anarchy:

http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux2.html




That's not an article. It's a fantasy.


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InvisibleGijith
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Posts: 2,400
Loc: New York
Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5651000 - 05/19/06 05:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Read the article. I think I heard Paulie Walnuts offer an identical method of protection last week on the Sopranos.


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what's with neocons and the word 'ilk'?


Edited by Gijith (05/19/06 07:13 PM)


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