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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5649681 - 05/19/06 10:45 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

He is right. It is up to one's self to make changes in the system. Of course you can't walk up to a police station and do something that is against the law. That is just silly. What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform. It's easy to sit here and bitch on an internet board. Things don't get fixed that way, though. Only by busting your ass for a cause will anything ever change.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5649760 - 05/19/06 11:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Redstorm, if you think that it's up to you how you are treated by the government, I invite you to attempt the little experiment I outlined above. If you are unsuccessful--if you are not treated as you wish to be treated by the men with the guns, then you are wrong when you say that you have a say in how you are treated by the people in government.

It's as simple as that.

"What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform."

This is also bullshit. I am arguing against "the system" entirely. If you work within the system to achieve reform, you are doing nothing but increasing its size and scope. Government always grows -- until it collapses from within, as did the Egyptian, Roman and Soviet empires, among others.

My rights don't exist because some guy in a suit somewhere write them down on a piece of paper. If you tell yourself lies such as that..then your rights can be revoked by the next guy to come along.


Edited by nonick (05/19/06 11:13 AM)


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5649768 - 05/19/06 11:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

My rights don't exist because some guy in a suit somewhere write them down on a piece of paper. If you tell yourself lies such as that..then your rights can be revoked by the next guy to come along.




...which is precisely the problem with anarchy. Anyone more powerful (or even just less moral) than yourself can violate your rights with impunity. If you object to having your rights violated, why on earth do you propose a system (anarchy) under which your rights are even less protected than they are in a minarchy?



Phred


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5649791 - 05/19/06 11:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Why do you assume that my rights wouldn't be protected without a government? Heck, the people in the government violate 750,000 drug users rights each year.


Edited by nonick (05/19/06 11:27 AM)


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5649843 - 05/19/06 11:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"should we or should we not have government" is the wrong question. we should not have government. unfortunately, government is inevitable, and it will be until every person on earth treats every other person on earth in honesty and peace. the best we can do until then is establish better government to protect us against worse government. it is a necessary evil.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5649911 - 05/19/06 12:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wilshire, when you say that government is inevitable, you are really saying is that when two people interact, it is inevitable that one will use force against the other. I do not agree with this. I do not use force in my personal relationships. But for a little hypothetical: So if I ever met you on the street and I used force against you, would you just sit there and take it, claiming that it was a "necessary evil" in your life?

As a side note, you might want to refer to your own sig banner to help you figure this stuff out a bit.


Edited by nonick (05/19/06 12:21 PM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650006 - 05/19/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That's all fine if there are only two of you of equal strength in the whole world. Reproduction might be tough, seeing as how those two are either both male or both female. But that's probably best because sooner or later one of their progeny is likely to be an asshole and enslave it's siblings


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650007 - 05/19/06 12:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Wilshire, when you say that government is inevitable, you are really saying is that when two people interact, it is inevitable that one will use force against the other.

no i am not. check my sig banner and look for "straw man fallacy".

what i am saying is that there are people in society who will violate the rights of other people. there are people who will kill and steal. as long as these people exist, government will be inevitable (and necessary).

if anarchy were possible, it would already exist. the reason it doesn't is that there are people in the world who won't let it. there probably always will be.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
    #5650040 - 05/19/06 12:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"what i am saying is that there are people in society who will violate the rights of other people."

Are you saying that it is part of human nature to be evil? If so, then we certainly don't want a government. "Government" is merely a bunch of people with a complete monopoly on the use of force in society. If people are innately evil, then we certainly don't want some people to have a monopoly on the use of force, for they will inevitably be evil themselves.

"if anarchy were possible, it would already exist. the reason it doesn't is that there are people in the world who won't let it. there probably always will be. "

It already does exist in many areas of life. Your personal relationships, for one. The internet is also an anarchy. The eBay user rating system, wikipedia..the list goes on.

You also have contradicted yourself here by saying that government is necessary AND that the only reason it exists is because people let it.

Some people let themselves get fat, does that make getting fat a necessary thing? Some people use force, does that make force a necessary thing? No, it simply means that some people choose to get fat and some choose to use force.


Edited by nonick (05/19/06 12:35 PM)


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650055 - 05/19/06 12:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No one's saying that humans are innately anything. Some people are more prone to violence than others. The great accomplishment of civilization is that it manages to keep the bullies from taking control over the weak.


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Offlinewilshire
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650092 - 05/19/06 12:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Are you saying that it is part of human nature to be evil?

i am saying that it is the nature of some human beings to initiate force against some other human beings.

f so, then we certainly don't want a government.

of course we don't want government, but as long as people exist who initiate force, there will always be government.

"Government" is merely a bunch of people with a complete monopoly on the use of force in society.

your definition needs refinement. no government has a complete monopoly on the use of force. a government claims, and is effective in enforcing, a monopoly on the non-emergency use of force in a given geographic area. as you are probably aware, government can be anything from local gangs to regional warlords to democratic states.

It already does exist in many areas of life.

of course. it exists in all areas of my life where i am not the victim or perpetrator of violence or fraud. as soon as i become one or the other, there is no more anarchy.

You also have contradicted yourself here by saying that government is necessary AND that the only reason it exists is because people let it.

did i say the only reason it exists is because people let it? no. i said that the only reason it exists is because people cause it to exist.

you do not understand my argument at all.

here is a question for you. if you can answer it satisfactorily, you get to keep being an anarchist without sticking your head in the sand. otherwise you should probably admit that your position is untenable and move on:

how do you propose to prevent the establishment of government?


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650096 - 05/19/06 12:50 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650112 - 05/19/06 12:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.



I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.


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OfflineRedstorm
Prince of Bugs
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650119 - 05/19/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:
Redstorm, if you think that it's up to you how you are treated by the government, I invite you to attempt the little experiment I outlined above. If you are unsuccessful--if you are not treated as you wish to be treated by the men with the guns, then you are wrong when you say that you have a say in how you are treated by the people in government.

I addressed that already. It would not work. That is why I am willing to dedicate my life to fix this stagnant hulking machine

It's as simple as that.

"What one can do, though, is attempt to work with the system to achieve reform."

This is also bullshit. I am arguing against "the system" entirely. If you work within the system to achieve reform, you are doing nothing but increasing its size and scope. Government always grows -- until it collapses from within, as did the Egyptian, Roman and Soviet empires, among others.

Incorrect. There are reformers all over the United States who's key purpose is to reduce the size of the gov't. I am one of those people.

My rights don't exist because some guy in a suit somewhere write them down on a piece of paper. If you tell yourself lies such as that..then your rights can be revoked by the next guy to come along.

I never said anyone gave you your rights. They are inherently yours; that much is certain. They were granted to you by nature. If they are restricted or revoked by someone, it is your duty as a citizen to take them back. You also fail to realize or acknowledge that you have no guarantee of freedom under an anarchic system. In anarchy, one has absolute freedom, as does everyone else. Unfortunately, this freedom, being absolute, also allows one to trespass on other's freedoms.





As long as you are willing to wallow in your self-pity and do nothing about the current political climate, you will continue to live a life of revoked rights. The only way to regain your rights is to work for them. Rights are not a privilege, they are a responsibility. Being a responsibility, you have to pay your dues to maintain them. These dues come in the form of hard work and thankless labor. If your preferred life is anarchy, what have you done to achieve it?


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 81,741
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650122 - 05/19/06 12:56 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

nonick said:

Some people let themselves get fat, does that make getting fat a necessary thing? Some people use force, does that make force a necessary thing?





Yes, unless you like being a slave to people who use force


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Offlinenonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
    #5650137 - 05/19/06 01:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

wilshire said:
Are you saying that it is part of human nature to be evil?

i am saying that it is the nature of some human beings to initiate force against some other human beings.

So it is human nature, eh? How many "evil" people are there in the world? You can ballpark it for me, or at least provide some evidence to prove your point.



f so, then we certainly don't want a government.

of course we don't want government, but as long as people exist who initiate force, there will always be government.

Not true. Serial killers will exist long after government is gone.



"Government" is merely a bunch of people with a complete monopoly on the use of force in society.

your definition needs refinement. no government has a complete monopoly on the use of force. a government claims, and is effective in enforcing, a monopoly on the non-emergency use of force in a given geographic area. as you are probably aware, government can be anything from local gangs to regional warlords to democratic states.

Sorry, government is a monopoly on order in a society. Government imposes a singular value system onto the entire society.



It already does exist in many areas of life.

of course. it exists in all areas of my life where i am not the victim or perpetrator of violence or fraud. as soon as i become one or the other, there is no more anarchy.

Ok... didn't you just say a minute ago that anarchy cannot exist in a world were people use force?

here is a question for you. if you can answer it satisfactorily, you get to keep being an anarchist without sticking your head in the sand. otherwise you should probably admit that your position is untenable and move on:

how do you propose to prevent the establishment of government?





Um..government has already been established. A more relevant question would be to ask how I propose to eliminate the force that is used against me in my own life. My answer to this is simple: I don't tollerate the use of force against me when I have the ability to stop it, such as if a bully is picking on me and I have the ability to leave the situation. In scenarios where I can't win, such as when the tax man comes to my door, I simply pay. But I call him immoral for what he is doing, and try to advocate anarchy to as many people as possible, so that we can resist government together.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5650142 - 05/19/06 01:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Quote:

nonick said:

Some people let themselves get fat, does that make getting fat a necessary thing? Some people use force, does that make force a necessary thing?






Yes, unless you like being a slave to people who use force




I'm sorry, but I don't follow. Try responding to the fat person example, that may help me understand your response.


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650154 - 05/19/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

"As long as you are willing to wallow in your self-pity and do nothing about the current political climate, you will continue to live a life of revoked rights. The only way to regain your rights is to work for them. Rights are not a privilege, they are a responsibility. Being a responsibility, you have to pay your dues to maintain them. These dues come in the form of hard work and thankless labor. If your preferred life is anarchy, what have you done to achieve it? "

Well, I am on here trying to advocate anarchy. I have done plenty to achieve anarchy in my personal life as well.

Does it not appear to you that I am working to enforce my own rights? Why do you think I am on here arguing that government is immoral?


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Offlinenonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
    #5650160 - 05/19/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Silversoul said:
Quote:

nonick said:
Speak for yourself, Silversoul. I was asking wilshire. There are many people who believe that humans are born evil, such as Christians.



I'm a Christian, and I hold no such belief.




So you don't believe in original sin, then? You're not a very good Christian if you don't...


...LOL. What was jesus for then?


Edited by nonick (05/19/06 01:09 PM)


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OfflineSirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
    #5650163 - 05/19/06 01:08 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

nonick stated:
In scenarios where I can't win, such as when the tax man comes to my door, I simply pay.



If you are so convicted of your beliefs, why violate them?


--------------------
“I must not fear.
Fear is the mind-killer.
Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration.
I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me.
And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path.
Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”


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