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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646534 - 05/18/06 02:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Skeptikos stated : SirTripAlot, please learn to read and go back over my posts. It would also be helpful if you were to familiarize yourself with constructing logical arguments. I was quite clear that this post is (as was Mr Sobran's article) about anarchy as the absence of the state. I cannot be more clear.
I do not need your advice on logical arguments. Just because you would like to narrowly focus on one definition of anarchy, while posing questions, doesn't mean I cannot pose the other side of the coin.
By the way, I am still waiting for your examples of successful anarchy's within pre colonial North America.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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Silversoul
Rhizome


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646569 - 05/18/06 02:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: Show me your family without showing me individuals, and I will believe you that government exists.
If government doesn't exist, then hasn't anarchy already been achieved?
Quote:
So you think that a rapists actions are reprehensible. What does that mean? Why do you think that?
I feel compassion for the woman who is raped.
Quote:
"One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions." False. Morality is the study of preferred human behavior.
If morality is simply preferred human behavior, then obviously government is moral, since the vast majority of people are not anarchists.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
Posts: 8,846
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646668 - 05/18/06 03:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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actually, I think the current administration is pretty good evidence that we don't really need government.
I mean, if we can put a monkey in the white house and the country still doesn't fall apart, that pretty much proves to me that the country runs itself no matter how inept the government is.
The sad truth is that private enterprise runs this country. Therefore, the people are responsible for their own downfall. They can't blame an inept government for that. They can blame the businesses they own and patronize, and they can blame themselves for supporting businesses that fuck shit up. But they can't blame the government, because the government is for the most part powerless.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646810 - 05/18/06 03:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"If government doesn't exist, then hasn't anarchy already been achieved?"
Government does not exist, but individuals who steal in the name of the government do exist. Its just like when people kill in the name of god. Of course god doesn't exist. Violence in the name of a false concept, whether it be America or God, is not justified. Anarchy is broken down into "a" - without, and "archy" - heirarchical power structures. We certainly have got one of those in society 
"I feel compassion for the woman who is raped."
Why?
"If morality is simply preferred human behavior, then obviously government is moral, since the vast majority of people are not anarchists."
Morality is the study of preferred human behavior. If you take a preferred action, you are being moral. If you take an unpreferred action, you are being immoral. Morality is based on facts, just as all aspects of reality are. When you go to buy a house, you are going to use facts such as its size, age, location and cost to determine if purchasing it is a preferred behavior. Buying a house is a moral decision.
And since when does the number of people who agree with a given proposition make it moral? This is what I was trying to draw out in the rape example. So I ask you again, if four men think that rape is moral, and then rape a woman, does that make the rape moral? Again, this is a yes or no question. Remember, the "vast majority" (ie. 80% of voters) obviously don't think rape is immoral in this example.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646825 - 05/18/06 03:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: Why is the giving of tax money considered stealing? I hate paying taxes, however,there is a reason for them.
Private property, is essential to all basic rights in my opinion.
Taxation is theft for the simple reason that if you don't pay, you will be sent a nasty letter, and if you continue to not pay, they will come and arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the tax men will shoot you. When I go to the store to buy a gallon of milk, it is not theft because I have voluntarily entered into a contract with the store owner. We have agreed to exchange milk for cash. I never made any such agreement with the tax collectors.
You correctly claim that private property is essential for the protection of human rights. You should easily be able to understand that taxation is a violation of private property. The same as rape is.
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 03:50 PM)
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Ancalagon
AgnosticLibertarian

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Phred]
#5646916 - 05/18/06 04:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sorry if these issues have been dealt with in subsequent posts, don't have time to read this thread in its totality at the moment.
Quote:
Rothbard and others have proposed elaborate and ultimately contradictory schemes involving ad hoc posses, courts and judges for hire, and competing security agencies in lieu of a single over-arching group with the authority to handle the courts, the cops, and the military. It takes about five minutes of thought to recognize the flaws in these arrangements.
It was always my understanding in reading Rothbard that he was not attempting to say what would or should be in an Anarcho-Capitalist society, but rather what might be. He always seemed to take care to note that 'this legal system' or 'that system of private roads' or 'that system of national defense' *might* arise in the kind of society he envisioned, but it also might not. Just a minor quibble but I feel the need to point it out.
For me the moral arguments of libertarianism are completely compelling and I am simply unable to shake them. I believe the initiation of force is wrong absolutely. Whether an individual initiates force or a group of plunderers styling themselves as a government initiates the force they are both initiating force. That having been said, I happen to reject Rothbard's call for nothing less than Anarcho-Capitalism and instead side with the late Harry Browne in his calling for as little government as is possible -- if Anarcho-Capitalism is feasible, that's excellent, but if it's not, Minarchy would be an unbelievable improvement over the current sorry state of affairs.
TO BE CONTINUED..
-------------------- ?When Alexander the Great visted the philosopher Diogenes and asked whether he could do anything for him, Diogenes is said to have replied: 'Yes, stand a little less between me and the sun.' It is what every citizen is entitled to ask of his government.? -Henry Hazlitt in 'Economics in One Lesson'
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646934 - 05/18/06 04:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
nonick said: "If government doesn't exist, then hasn't anarchy already been achieved?"
Government does not exist, but individuals who steal in the name of the government do exist. Its just like when people kill in the name of god. Of course god doesn't exist. Violence in the name of a false concept, whether it be America or God, is not justified. Anarchy is broken down into "a" - without, and "archy" - heirarchical power structures. We certainly have got one of those in society 
Government is a system. Do you believe that something must be a physical object to exist?
Quote:
"I feel compassion for the woman who is raped."
Why?
Because I'm a compassionate person.
Quote:
"If morality is simply preferred human behavior, then obviously government is moral, since the vast majority of people are not anarchists."
Morality is the study of preferred human behavior. If you take a preferred action, you are being moral. If you take an unpreferred action, you are being immoral. Morality is based on facts, just as all aspects of reality are. When you go to buy a house, you are going to use facts such as its size, age, location and cost to determine if purchasing it is a preferred behavior. Buying a house is a moral decision.
And since when does the number of people who agree with a given proposition make it moral? This is what I was trying to draw out in the rape example. So I ask you again, if four men think that rape is moral, and then rape a woman, does that make the rape moral? Again, this is a yes or no question. Remember, the "vast majority" (ie. 80% of voters) obviously don't think rape is immoral in this example.
You're not making sense. Preference is subjective. It may be based on objective factors, but those factors must be interpreted subjectively. You talk about location as an objective variable in buying a house, and yet the value of one location versus another is subjective(one could say "inter-subjective," since the housing market is based on the preferences of the majority). In any case, if morality is the study of "preferred behavior," then whose preference are we talking about, if not society's? Apparently you don't believe in God, so that can't be the measure. Are we talking about your individual preferences?
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646981 - 05/18/06 04:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated : Taxation is theft for the simple reason that if you don't pay, you will be sent a nasty letter, and if you continue to not pay, they will come and arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the tax men will shoot you
The above statement is not true.
nonick stated: You correctly claim that private property is essential for the protection of human rights. You should easily be able to understand that taxation is a violation of private property. The same as rape is.
Taxation makes private property tangible. Although how disgusting it is to pay a property tax, there are several guarantees that the property you own will stay yours until you sell it.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5647035 - 05/18/06 05:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"nonick stated : Taxation is theft for the simple reason that if you don't pay, you will be sent a nasty letter, and if you continue to not pay, they will come and arrest you, and if you resist arrest, the tax men will shoot you
The above statement is not true."
BWAHAHAHAHHAHAH How can you even say that? How can you not realize that if you don't pay your taxes, you will have force used against you? Wow is all I can really say...
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5647064 - 05/18/06 05:11 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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OK OK I am sorry, I'll stop laughing now. Please explain why my statement is not true.
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 05:11 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5647070 - 05/18/06 05:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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I'd personally like to know your position on traffic violations. If I run a stop sign, is the cop stealing from me by writing a ticket?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5647182 - 05/18/06 06:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Don't feed the trolls
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5647280 - 05/18/06 06:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated : OK OK I am sorry, I'll stop laughing now. Please explain why my statement is not true
Unless you are the CFO for a major corporation, not paying your taxes will not land you in jail.Your typical citizen might have to pay back taxes when they file, but it would take an exorbitant amount of money to land in prison.
also,
The "tax man" will not shoot you. Unless you can prove the IRS has recently acquired come .44's.....that statement is in fact, not true.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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wilshire
free radical


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Skeptikos]
#5647317 - 05/18/06 06:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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government is inevitable.
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DoctorJ


Registered: 06/30/03
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: wilshire]
#5647331 - 05/18/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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the absence of government is not inevitable, but highly probable in the near future
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5647344 - 05/18/06 06:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"PROVIDENCE, R.I. - Richard Hatch, who won $1 million in the debut season of "Survivor," has been sentenced to more than four years in prison for failing to pay taxes on his reality TV prize and other income."
"On June 16, 1931, Al Capone pled guilty to tax evasion and prohibition charges. He then boasted to the press that he had struck a deal for a two-and-one-half year sentence, but the presiding judge informed him he, the judge, was not bound by any deal. Capone then changed his plea to not guilty.
On October 18, 1931, Capone was convicted after trial, and on November 24, was sentenced to eleven years in Federal prison, fined $50,000 and charged $7,692 for court costs, in addition to $215,000 plus interest due on back taxes. The six-month Contempt of Court sentence was to be served concurrently."
I am not bothering to supply links because this shit is common knowledge.
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: zappaisgod]
#5647402 - 05/18/06 07:03 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Like I said...try to resist the tax collector when he comes to your door. You will end up shot.
If any masked robber comes to your door and trys to take 40% of your money, you are going to shoot the fucker and thats that. But try to shoot the tax men when they come..well well well..you're in for a whole world of hurtin'. They have all the guns they want, and you can only get off so many rounds before they just blow your house up or burn you out. ...And they say that anarchists like to set fires and blow stuff up... HA!
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 07:05 PM)
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SirTripAlot
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5647806 - 05/18/06 09:15 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_evasion
By contrast tax evasion is the general term for efforts by individuals, firms, trusts and other entities to evade taxes by illegal means. Tax evasion usually entails taxpayers deliberately misrepresenting or concealing the true state of their affairs to the tax authorities to reduce their tax liability, and includes, in particular, dishonest tax reporting (such as declaring less income, profits or gains than actually earned; or overstating deductions).
Tax evasion is a crime in almost all countries and subjects the guilty party to fines or imprisonment.
Like I said, if you are a CFO dodging taxes for a corporation or someone in an extremely high tax bracket, yes those are punishable by time in prison.
BUT
For your typical citizen within the USA, you will get a letter in the mail from the IRS stating what you owe. If you don not pay it will accrue in the form of back taxes.....no one will come to your house and imprison you, or shoot at you.
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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beatnicknick
The Innovator


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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5648986 - 05/19/06 02:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In order for anarchy to work, no one could organise and take power by force. Everyone would have to agree to be peaceful and work harmoniously. But this will never happened. There will always be a people that will organise and take over, feeding off the majority of the people, sometimes they will treat the people better than other times, but it all depends on the people. If we really don't like something, since we support the government with there taxes, we have our ways of changing the governments mind. We can stop working. We storm buildings. We can march in great crowds in order to get the attention of even greater crowds. They can't just use there army to kill us all if we disobey, they NEED us. They depend on you and me. It is up to US how they treat US.
In order to have a true, great democracy, full cooperation and attendance of the people must be REQUIRED. It must be law. The journalists have an important role in not being bribed by the power, in reporting the full story. The people have a great responsibility of going out of there way to organise and respond to unfair laws. There will always be an organised crime that takes power, the Bush Administration is a great example, but in the end the people will be the "deciders."
-------------------- I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.
Edited by beatnicknick (05/19/06 02:56 AM)
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nonick
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: beatnicknick]
#5649644 - 05/19/06 10:31 AM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"It is up to US how they treat US."
This is patently false. Anyone who would say such a thing is just demonstrating that they have fallen victim to the lies of the indocrination camps where this bullshit is propaganized every day for 12 years of a young person's life.
I'd like you to prove that it's up to you how you are treated by the government by going to your local police station and smoking a joint right outside the front door, and when they break out the handcuffs, all you have to do to prove your point is politely ask them to put the cuffs away and leave you alone. Post the video after you do this, please. I really would like to see this done.
Stop believing the lies. Think for yourself for a change, please. All of us will be for the better.
Edited by nonick (05/19/06 10:35 AM)
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