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nonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
Last seen: 16 years, 11 months
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: DoctorJ]
#5646176 - 05/18/06 12:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
DoctorJ said: because people are dumb
duh
If people are dumb by nature, then we certainly don't want a government, for the dumb people will be present in it. I certainly don't want dumb people having a monopoly on the use of force in society...just sounds really dangerous to me.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 7,460
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646188 - 05/18/06 12:41 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick stated:If it is good for people in blue uniforms to use guns against you and then provide you with something, then to be morally consistent, it must also be good for you to use guns to steal from people, so long as you provide them with something in return. So I ask, why do you not practice what you preach?
Anyone understand the above?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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nonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Redstorm]
#5646197 - 05/18/06 12:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
Quote:
If the government is so good, I wonder why the force us all to attend their indoctrination camps from age 5-18?
They don't. You have the option to be home-schooled or to attend private schools.
OK I'll be more precise...If the government is so good, I wonder why they use force to collect tax money and create so called "public schools"? If public schools are a real value, then they will exist without the need for people to use guns to collect money to build them. Can you imagine how people would feel if wal-mart hired an army of men to collect taxes to build places where kids went to learn all of the great things about wal-mart. HEHEHE
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646202 - 05/18/06 12:44 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nonick seems to be implying that no one can have authority to use force with others. Of course, there will always be people who do use force, whether it is an initiation of force such as murder or theft, or retaliatory force. Even in the absence of government, there would have to be vigilante groups to enforce justice. While they may not be paid in tax dollars, I see little reason why they might not commit other abuses of power.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646203 - 05/18/06 12:45 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"coerced to give" is a contradiction in terms. This is classic doublespeak.
No it's not. It was a negative statement painted (obviously) in a negative light. Anyone who views the word "coerce" in a positive light needs to go back and retake remedial English. Same with "forced investment".
You are not understanding my position. I am not saying that this system of gov't is good for everyone. Hell, I don't care about everyone. This system of gov't has been good for me and most of the people I love. What vested interest do I have in a system where my current comfort is not guaranteed? I don't care if anarchy would be good for most people (which I still don't believe it would be). It wouldn't be good for me.
While I could do with less gov't, no gov't would not be in my best interest.
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nonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
Posts: 537
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646237 - 05/18/06 12:51 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: nonick stated:If it is good for people in blue uniforms to use guns against you and then provide you with something, then to be morally consistent, it must also be good for you to use guns to steal from people, so long as you provide them with something in return. So I ask, why do you not practice what you preach?
Anyone understand the above?
When trying to come up with scientific theories, consistency is always key. If relativity is to be accurate, it must apply to all matter at all times and all places. The same is true for theories of morality. To have any meaning at all, they must be consistent for all people, times and places. If it is wrong for you to steal from me, it must be wrong for all people to steal from me. And vice versa, if it is wrong for me to steal from you, it must be wrong for all people to steal from you.
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nonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646255 - 05/18/06 12:53 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Hell, I don't care about everyone."
If you don't care about everyone, then why are you having this conversation? It seems rather pointless, and totally arbitrary to care about X number of people, but not X+1.
This statement alone is an end to this conversation. You have basically just said "I don't care about you". So understanding that, I really don't care to discuss this topic anymore with you.
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs



Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,175
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646263 - 05/18/06 12:55 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Too bad. I'm here to stay.
I will continue to debate topics like this, because they affect my well-being. Whether you decide to ignore my posts does not concern me in the slightest.
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646277 - 05/18/06 12:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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In order to determine what is stealing, one must first determine what belongs to whom. Thus, one must define property rights within a system. As much as libertarians and anarcho-capitalists like to pretend that modern western-style property rights are objective and universal, this simply isn't the case. Property rights are a social construct, as is government.
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646289 - 05/18/06 01:01 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Nonick seems to be implying that no one can have authority to use force with others. Of course, there will always be people who do use force, whether it is an initiation of force such as murder or theft, or retaliatory force. Even in the absence of government, there would have to be vigilante groups to enforce justice. While they may not be paid in tax dollars, I see little reason why they might not commit other abuses of power."
So there will always be threats of violence in society. Big deal. To answer your question, I refer you to this article: http://www.lewrockwell.com/orig6/molyneux5.html While I recommend that you read the whole thing, question number 2, which deals with how a stateless society would protect itself from "foriegn" invasion, is the one which addresses your above stated concerns.
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646296 - 05/18/06 01:04 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Property rights are a social construct, as is government."
Do you think that rape is immoral? If yes: If two men outvote one women that they should rape her, is the rape which will ensue OK with you?
Edited by nonick (05/18/06 01:09 PM)
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646317 - 05/18/06 01:09 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Let's just say that I wouldn't consider it to be a very healthy society. Now, I'm not entirely a cultural relativist. I think there are some things that are just plain wrong. Wait, scratch that. "Right" and "wrong" aren't the kind of terms to be thinking in. "Constructive" and "destructive" are much more useful terms, and a much better way of measuring social norms. A society in which rape is considered ok is obviously going to be a self-destructive and unstable society.
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646330 - 05/18/06 01:13 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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You didn't answer my question. Is rape immoral?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646339 - 05/18/06 01:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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"Morality" is also a social construct, as well as a very loaded term. It is therefore not useful in discussions of government and society.
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nonick
Stranger

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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646359 - 05/18/06 01:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Um...there is no such thing as "government" or "society". There are only people.
Would you be friends with a rapist? Why or why not?
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Silversoul
Rhizome


Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 23,576
Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646374 - 05/18/06 01:25 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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nonick said: Um...there is no such thing as "government" or "society". There are only people.
False
Quote:
Would you be friends with a rapist? Why or why not?
No. Because I find their actions reprehensible. One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions.
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nonick
Stranger

Registered: 09/14/05
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Silversoul]
#5646428 - 05/18/06 01:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
nonick said: Um...there is no such thing as "government" or "society". There are only people.
False
Quote:
Would you be friends with a rapist? Why or why not?
No. Because I find their actions reprehensible. One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions.
Show me your family without showing me individuals, and I will believe you that government exists.
So you think that a rapists actions are reprehensible. What does that mean? Why do you think that?
"One does not need to appeal to "morality" to disagree with certain actions." False. Morality is the study of preferred human behavior.
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Skeptikos
GeneticallyEngineeredBonobo

Registered: 01/15/06
Posts: 145
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: SirTripAlot]
#5646498 - 05/18/06 02:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
SirTripAlot said: 3 accepted definitions of anarchy:
Absence of any form of political authority.
Political disorder and confusion.
Absence of any cohesive principle, such as a common standard or purpose
Sketipos: Please look at the third definition really hard. Anarchy, is much more then a stateless society. With all of your blabber about this subject, one would think you would have known that.
SirTripAlot, please learn to read and go back over my posts. It would also be helpful if you were to familiarize yourself with constructing logical arguments. I was quite clear that this post is (as was Mr Sobran's article) about anarchy as the absence of the state. I cannot be more clear. You're response cannot be more blatantly muddled. You are guilty of the fallacy of equivocation, using a different meaning of the word in an attempt to... to... well what are you attempting?
-------------------- Sincerely, Skeptikos
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gettinjiggywithit
jiggy


Registered: 07/20/04
Posts: 7,469
Loc: Heart of Laughter
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: Phred]
#5646503 - 05/18/06 02:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
The answer to the question "why do we need government" is "to assist the peaceful in protecting themselves from the non-peaceful." That is the only justification for the existence of government. Anything the government does which exceeds that mandate is necessarily an usurpation of power.
-------------------- Ahuwale ka nane huna.
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SirTripAlot
Semper Fidelis


Registered: 01/11/05
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Re: Why Do We Need Government? [Re: nonick]
#5646510 - 05/18/06 02:23 PM (17 years, 8 months ago) |
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Why is the giving of tax money considered stealing? I hate paying taxes, however,there is a reason for them.
Private property, is essential to all basic rights in my opinion.
Do you think we would have the current type of infrastructure in the United States if it were anarchist?
-------------------- “I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.”
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