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Offlinekrnfan145970
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sterilizing in a roaster oven?
    #5640554 - 05/17/06 12:47 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

i Have a turkey roaster oven that is adjustable from 150-450 degrees. Is it possible to sterilize jars or bags of grain (millet) in a roaster oven. I suspect it is not but 450 degrees is pretty hot. Anybody tried this?


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InvisibleMrMaddHatter
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: krnfan145970]
    #5640614 - 05/17/06 01:11 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That won't work. It'll dry out before its even close to sterilized. You need a PC for consistent results with whole grain.

They're not that expensive. Check out ebay.


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Invisiblecappa
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: MrMaddHatter]
    #5641030 - 05/17/06 07:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No, but I hear they can be used for PASTUERIZING bulk substrates at that 150F setting!  :smile:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: cappa]
    #5641051 - 05/17/06 07:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

No you can't use an oven to sterilize. Water can not exist in a liquid state above 212F/100C. If you heated the interior of your jars to 250F, the grains would be drier than they were at the store when you bought them.

Air is a terrible conductor of heat. Water will transfer heat into a substrate for pasteurizing much faster than air will.
RR


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Offlinejohnuk
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5641386 - 05/17/06 10:21 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've used our kitchen oven to sterilise things. If I'm sterilising a jar I set it to about 120C; once it goes too far over the filters and things start to melt and the nutrient can caramelise or just burn, so you have to keep an eye on that. The temperature sensor in your oven might not be very accurate, specially if it's a gas oven, so it might be worth picking up one or two oven thermometers to check the temperatures. Or try melting something with a specific melting point in it.

I always thought oven sterilising would be a bad idea because of drying. But I actually tried measuring it with some jars. I foiled the lids of the jars and weighed them. Then baked them at 120C for half an hour (preheated) and left them to cool. When they came out I couldn't measure a single gram of difference on them, seriously! :wink: I could actually tell the jars apart just by their weights

Seems 99.9% of the water just recondenses inside the jar. The sides and bottom might look dry when you take them out, but just shake 'em up and the moisture reappears.

I have two jars incubating right now that I've oven sterilised. The third did get contaminated, but only because I melted the filter during baking and tried to replace it in a less than sterile manner.

Oven baking is also great for all metal or glass objects. For example, if I'm making some liquid up for a culture or agar, I'll just put it in a conical flask, foil it and put it in the oven at 230C until the liquid's boiling. Remove, and you're clean!

The only benefit to PC is that the water vapour will increase the rate of heat transmission. You could probably do something similar by just putting a tray full of water in the oven as it preheats to get the jars heated quickly once they go in. (Edit: I mean, stand the jars in a tray of hot water to heat them up more quickly, not to simulate the pressure effect. And, RR is right that the pressure in a PC will ensure a higher water temperature)

But yeah, just have to be careful with the temperatures.


Edited by johnuk (06/23/06 08:29 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: johnuk]
    #5641517 - 05/17/06 11:17 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry friend, but you're mistaken on all counts.

Let me say it again, "water can NOT exist in a liquid state at a temperature above 100c without being under pressure". 30 minutes in a 120c oven will NOT heat the jars to beyond 100c and that is why you still had moisture, and also why you had contamination in one jar so far, and the other two are soon to follow.

The water will NOT recondense into the jar. If the jar and grains were heated to a temperature above 100c, the jar would be totally dry unless you had a non-vented lid on it, in which case you're cooking a bomb.

If you're making liquid culture, why would you want to use the oven to boil the liquid? Without pressure you can't get the liquid to exceed 100c, and that isn't enough to sterilize the malt.

You can not put a tray of water in the oven to simulate the effects of a pc.

PC'ing jars does NOT force water into the jar. We use lids with holes and filters on our jars, so the pressure inside the jar is the same as the pressure outside the jars. One additional thing the steam does besides heat transfer is provide 100% humidity during the sterilization process so that our grains don't dry out.
RR


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Offlinemajlo
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5641718 - 05/17/06 12:14 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

RogerRabbit you are wrong.....

watter can exist at 212F/100Cin liquid state!!!!! HELLO!
I am an ing. and believe me.........IT CAN!

the catch is the pressure..... and yes... you can sterilize things in an owen......it wil take a bit longer....maybe he'll loose some of the watter but it will be sterilized.

Get a book and read about it and you'll see....

If you put watter in the jar and seal it your basicly doing the same as the PC....

COOKING AT PRESSURE IN THE JAR (if the jar is not seal with foil)

Just wanted to clear things.

Finaly the damn university payed off!!! :smile: :smile:


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Offlinemajlo
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: majlo]
    #5641726 - 05/17/06 12:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

by rasing the pressure you raise the boiling point

that's the catch RogerRabbit

don't get me wrong, glad we all accept comments as adults :smile:


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: majlo]
    #5641859 - 05/17/06 01:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

lol. Good, so let me point out where you're missing the point. Water will NOT exist in a liquid state above 100C without being under pressure. Don't give me the silly little 'distilled water in a pyrex glass in the microwave thingie', because I've already seen that trick. We're talking water that has rye or brf in it. That is hardly distilled.

That being said, mason jars are meant to hold vacume, not pressure. The lids will vent no matter how tight you make them because they will warp to let the steam out. This is done to make the jars safe for little old ladies who tighten the lids too much when making jam. You can't sterilize in the oven. If you think so, do it and show us the mushrooms you grow.

By the way, read my original post. The part that is in italics. I have no idea what an ing is, but as an engineer, I know water can't exist in a liquid state without pressure. What about that is wrong and what book do I need to read?
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #5641949 - 05/17/06 01:33 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

that's all correct. missed the part without being under pressure

my bad

jas ar not all the same :smile:


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Offlinejohnuk
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: majlo]
    #5645268 - 05/18/06 05:52 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I've sterilised things like agar this way and had the dishes remain clear for weeks before I finally emptied them out (and they were still okay).


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OfflineIGnosticAbhorI
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: johnuk]
    #5645284 - 05/18/06 06:06 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Your Agar would come out dry.

-Gnostic


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Offlinejohnuk
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: IGnosticAbhorI]
    #5649216 - 05/19/06 06:26 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Even if it was in a foil capped flask? It didn't seem dry when I was pouring it out into the dishes.

The boiling point of a solution changes depending on what's dissolved in it, as I'm aware of things it usually goes up. I'm also not aware of a whole lot of life that can survive past temperatures even below the boiling point of pure water due to the problem of enzymes denaturing. If I remember right, kitchens have to hold their food at 70C to keep it germ free, not 130C.

I've actually done this, weighed jars for water loss (which is none existent) and kept the results clean. It does work. PC'ing probably is the better option, but it's not the only one.


Edited by johnuk (05/19/06 06:31 AM)


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: sterilizing in a roaster oven? [Re: johnuk]
    #5649231 - 05/19/06 06:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If your agar wasn't completly dry, it was unsterilized. It requires a temperature in excess of boiling to effect sterilization. This is not even a point to argue. I've seen lots of people over the years try oven sterilization, with a 100% failure rate. I've never seen one single proponent post a picture of a mushroom grown on grains that were 'sterilized'in the oven. If you weighed 'jars' and they were the same as before the oven, you didn't even heat them to 100c, and they will contaminate.
RR


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