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OfflineSporetacus
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Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter
    #5639610 - 05/16/06 11:34 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

IMHO there are way too many posts saying it doesn't 'really' matter if Christ raised people from the dead or Castaneda jumped off a cliff. It is ALL allegory.

If these things were unimportant then they would not have been mentioned. If they were false then they should not have been mentioned and comingling fact with fiction puts the entire account into question.

The TRUTH (not The FICTION) shall set you free.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639635 - 05/16/06 11:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Who can tell us the truth? and why will we believe them?


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HELP!!!!!!!!!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639743 - 05/16/06 11:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Da troot shal set you fee. :thumbup:

Sorry I was eating when I wrote this. :blush:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639791 - 05/17/06 12:07 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nothing really matters
Anyone can see
Nothing really matters - nothing really matters to me.


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639802 - 05/17/06 12:09 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Your getting the hang of this....if it is philosophy physical facts do not matter....the philosophy is the meat of it. I have found much valid philosophy in The Lord of the Rings which is admitted fiction. If we are talking science...give me fact. So why are there too many posts with this view? Is there a legal limit? I suppose you could call 911 and report it. In the end I do not care if Jesus ever got laid or if Castaneda tried BASE jumping without a chute.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5639821 - 05/17/06 12:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)



--------------------
HELP!!!!!!!!!


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Icelander]
    #5639880 - 05/17/06 12:20 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Da troot shal set you fee.




*Spore gently wipes crumbs from Icey's lips*

Bedderer?


--------------------
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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5639895 - 05/17/06 12:22 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What about a book labeled NON-FICTION or biography or autobigraphy or history?


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5639948 - 05/17/06 12:32 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

There are many books on science that purport to be objective fact, that bear little resemblance to it. Much history that is taught in schools is patently false. Our world leaders lie to their populations and change stories and no one even notices. I see these as more important issues than the validity of philosophy books. At least Castaneda's books were later labeled as fiction by his publisher to minimize controversy.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5640026 - 05/17/06 12:47 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

To teach about navigating reality, why not include an actual story unless it is to boost one's ego or make the story more intriguing? This shows weakness on the author's part.

Telling me a fictional story points to nothing at all.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


Edited by Sporetacus (05/17/06 01:16 AM)


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OfflineEquilibriuM
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5640074 - 05/17/06 12:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Whos to say whats real or fake?


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InvisibleHuehuecoyotl
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5640079 - 05/17/06 12:55 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

"Telling me a fictional story points to nothing at all."
That is because you are an individual. I am not made this way. I see truth in many obviously declared works of fiction. Fiction can make one think.


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"A warrior is a hunter. He calculates everything. That's control. Once his calculations are over, he acts. He lets go. That's abandon. A warrior is not a leaf at the mercy of the wind. No one can push him; no one can make him do things against himself or against his better judgment. A warrior is tuned to survive, and he survives in the best of all possible fashions." ― Carlos Castaneda


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5640160 - 05/17/06 01:08 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
The TRUTH (not The FICTION) shall set you free.



fact =/= truth


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Huehuecoyotl]
    #5640166 - 05/17/06 01:09 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Huehuecoyotl said:
"Telling me a fictional story points to nothing at all."
That is because you are an individual. I am not made this way. I see truth in many obviously declared works of fiction. Fiction can make one think.



Indeed. Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy was a revelation to me, and it certainly doesn't matter that Arthur Dent doesn't exist.


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OfflineSkeptikos
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Silversoul]
    #5640178 - 05/17/06 01:11 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

What does =/= mean? I am familiar with != (not equal).


--------------------
Sincerely,

Skeptikos


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Skeptikos]
    #5640185 - 05/17/06 01:12 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Skeptikos said:
What does =/= mean? I am familiar with != (not equal).



Different ways of expressing the same symbol, which is not found in its true form on a keyboard.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: EquilibriuM]
    #5640576 - 05/17/06 02:54 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Nimis?


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5640586 - 05/17/06 02:58 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
...
The TRUTH (not The FICTION) shall set you free.




That might be true. But, in relation to the rest of your post and the other posts: truth never was, is nor shall be "fact" or "facts". What is true extends and lies beyond that which is corroborated by mere facts.

With facts we can enable knowing, but we cannot know the origin of facts through facts. To think that we can know the origin of facts (i.e. the grounds of truth) through facts is to rely on the most naive presuppositions of knowing -- this is equivalent to thinking that science can understand itself or question itself, which it cannot because it presupposes its own plausibility just as facts invoke a way of thinking and presuppose their own plausability.

With truth we can understand the origin of facts and, even, the origin of truth itself. At this point the revelations of fiction and fact are blurred, transcended and DIScovered.


Edited by Lakefingers (05/17/06 03:05 AM)


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5640903 - 05/17/06 07:40 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

thanks to science we have found that simply discussing something, or being "philisophical" usually leads you far away from the path.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5640911 - 05/17/06 07:50 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
thanks to science we have found that simply discussing something, or being "philisophical" usually leads you far away from the path.




I disagree with your statement. Being philosophical opens one to the foundations of science, facts, truth, concepts, activities, etc.

Science is methodologically incapable of understanding what motivates and enables its ability to produce facts and is therefore blind to its own foundationalist worldview.

Science presupposes an entire rationalism (a presupposition of the justification of *fact*, or the cult of fact) which leads one exponentially farther away from the truth the more one readily one believes that the methods of science reveal some essential truth (i.e. something beyond the factual).

To illustrate: your statement about science cannot be analyzed through science or fact, because the statement presupposes the rationalistic framework where science and fact are legitimized means of reasoning. Therefore your statements says nothing about the nature of science, but only invokes it. E.g.: any narcissist can say something nice about himself/herself, but no narcissist can speak about himself/herself free from their narcissism.


Edited by Lakefingers (05/17/06 07:59 AM)


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Lakefingers]
    #5640947 - 05/17/06 08:21 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

I disagree with your statement. Being philosophical opens one to the foundations of science, facts, truth, concepts, activities, etc.




heh, you can disagree, but I'm not trying to state opinion. I can't argue about philosophy, because I agree. Philosophy is one of the most important things to us as humans, even those ignorant to the process.

Quote:

Science is methodologically incapable of understanding what motivates and enables its ability to produce facts and is therefore blind to its own foundationalist worldview.




now this i can debate. Philosophy is a precursor to science in many ways. The "problem" (for lack of a better word at 8am) with philosophy is that the entire process takes place within the minds, ears and mouths of people, coming upon "findings" and even "solutions" all through mental process. Philosophy is always in theory, it does not always apply in the same way science does, regardless of culture, environment or etc. Science is simply the ability to take a philisophical idea, and put it into physical terms; being able to test the theory and turn it into something that can be observed by anyone.

Quote:

Science presupposes an entire rationalism (a presupposition of the justification of *fact*, or the cult of fact) which leads one exponentially farther away from the truth the more one readily one believes that the methods of science reveal some essential truth (i.e. something beyond the factual).




this is an personal problem, not a problem with science. When you say it "leads one away," you are really saying "those who don't understand get confused." It's somewhat obvious, and should not be associated with science, while at the same time you must recognize that you cannot really dismiss anyone from being a philosopher.. because again, its physical theory vs metaphysical theory in many situations. To those who do understand real science, it is not something that provides "facts." If anything, it simply reveals what is most unlikely in a given situation, provided you also know what factors are in play.

Quote:

any narcissist can say something nice about himself/herself, but no narcissist can speak about himself/herself free from their narcissism




maybe its just early, but i have no idea what you are talking about.

this all really reflects the topic of this thread. To me, fiction vs non-fiction DOES matter. If you spend your entire life reading and fantasizing about unicorns and making wishes and etc. I would argue that after 30-40 years of that mentality, you will in fact, be less reasonable when interacting with an "average" person. Again, lack of a better word.. think average in the context of a bell curve).

I'll also add here that those who have no imagination at all, are also at fault in some ways, because they may also fall into a mindset where certain things just aren't possible, when scientific theories can be incomplete most of the time. I actually see many connections between philosophy and scientific theory, in fact they use the same mental processes, regardless of the intended result. It's only the application and intention of ideas that set the two apart.


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


Edited by kotik (05/17/06 08:24 AM)


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5641336 - 05/17/06 11:57 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

It doesn't matter when you pan out the view.

Everything that will happen in the world today was fiction yesterday.

Today, it is non fiction and much will be recorded as facts of what came to be true on the day may 14, 2006.

Yesterday, on May 13 2006 it was all just a pipe dream, a possibility, a probability, in the imagination of the mind-fiction.

There is no truth in believing that what is fiction today won't become non fiction, factual and true someday up the road.


Consider how fictional our world today would look to someone tens, hundreds and thousands of years back in time. What they would see is the truth of today.

Who is to say that what imagination beholds is not the probabilities of what may be in the future, showing itself to us on the screens of our minds?






The expression "The truth shall set you Free" has a different , non material meaning to me.

It's all just pure energy that has become manipulated and distorted to create all of this into shapes and forms and concepts of matter literally and figuratively which we call reality (subjective and objective).

Getting caught up into the distorted shapes and forms of reality is what binds us. The truth can set us free and that is that it is all just pure energy when you unravel the binds and it all becomes fiction once again.

There is a place in the distant future where planet earth will no longer be really truly here. To believe it was if you were elsewhere in the cosmos would be fiction. Same will happen to everything you believe to be so today. *poof* like magic, gone................

What in hell and the heavens is it anyone thinks they can pin down permanently? Nothing. There's your truth that will set you free.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5641368 - 05/17/06 12:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

this is still P&S right?  :rolleyes:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5641388 - 05/17/06 12:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

kotik said:
this is still P&S right?  :rolleyes:




If one is posting the eye rolling emoticon (symbolic of ego resistance expressed) in this case, to  a passage inspired (in spirit) of a philosophical outlook, then I would say YES! We are in the shroomeries Philosophy and Spirituality forum discussing a thoughtfull post someone put up on fiction and non fiction and the truth setting you free.

If it were to be posted in the science forum, I wonder what sort of replies it would get.

Feel free to debate against the philosophical, spiritual AND scientific truth of what I wrote Kotik.  Go ahead. Or is eye rolling the best you got to negate with? :wink:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5641504 - 05/17/06 01:11 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I think, sporetacus was more about fictions about history or about fictions that that are claimed for truth in the now, but not proved.
The whole thing for the future may be on some other page of this word 'fiction' :wink: Once my favorite in the futuristic use of that word is the science-fiction.
But if fiction is mixed with metaphors or allegories in 'history-books', then humans should be told so.
We forgot to perceive those stories even allegorically, like our ancients did and 'transported' different 'meaning' with those (mostly spoken) lines.

If one mixes, better, masks intentionally metaphorical realm with that of perceived and proved facts (one should discern there), there is a real need to question that, as the constructed or intended 'picture' must not be the beneficialiest-intended one, if it has to be 'covered' as 'fact'...

Honesty


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5642027 - 05/17/06 04:02 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That's a highly polarized view blue. Try to completely SPLIT the human psyche up into a fictional OR non fictional conscious awareness.

Trying to will only lead to utter madness within the self.

You understand the stability of cohesive, interdependent polarities. 

Rip them apart and isolate them from one another and each becomes

DE-RANGED by itself, in the view of an observer.

Ped discussed the violence of such actions in the "what makes a good teacher post" quite nicely.

Take what you wrote blue and apply it to the phrase-

The truth shall set you free

If I am not free to decide for myself, what is fiction and non fiction, regardless of a label someone else put on it,  then where does the truth come in and how will it free me to decide and discern for myself?

Don't I first have to be free myself to put things to my own exploration, experiments and discoveries before I can come to truth? If I am free to do that, then I can't allow for labels to matter much to me before.

If I am not free to do that, I am trapped and forced to believe everything someone else put a non-fiction label on and not to consider the possibilities of something someone else put a fiction label on.

How does doing that set me free? :confused:

I'm curious why you left off with the word Honesty. What did that gesture mean to you?

One can honestly be aware of decieving others and remain honest about it. Now what?  :blush:

Some people make honest mistakes because of a lack of information. It may therefore look like they are intentionally decieving others all the while, they never meant or intended to and sincerely believed they were in the truth. Now what? :blush:

Being truly honest in or about something and what is truly real can be different things. Like giving an honest opinion of something. That doesn't make it a fact.

I knew this guy going through alcohol detox who would honestly see little green men running around his house. If at that time he was seeing them and people told him that they truly were not there, that truth of physical reality would not have freed him from seeing them.

Telling him a medical truth that he was hallucinating them would still not have freed him from the experience of seeing them running around. He really experienced it and that's the honest truth also. :shrug: Its all true at the same time.

What does honesty mean relative to this topic?

To imply that anything currently fiction can never become realized or materialized is being potentially dishonest.

If one tries to keep the non fiction and fiction isolated from each other, nothing will ever become of anything.

My home was once fiction and now here it is. My being a parent was once fiction and now, here it is real as life I am one. :shrug:

We see this transitioning and morphing between the two happening naturally around us all of the time. Like it or not, IT'S a fact of life and evolution. The once not real is made real every day. The once really so, is no longer at some point as well.

The lines that separate and divide all blur when you begin to see the big picture more clearly.


:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5642703 - 05/17/06 07:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

let's have at it, only because I really think there is something to be debated here.

Quote:

It doesn't matter when you pan out the view.



This statement pretty much explains a difference in perspective.  To me, this statement is too generic and abstract to contain any meaningful truths or information.  The same reason I see paint splattered on a canvas and I don't recognize art sometimes I guess.

Quote:

Everything that will happen in the world today was fiction yesterday.



I disagree.  Tomorrow is simply today's anticipations. Yesterday is a memory of an experience.  Nothing mentioned is fiction, I would like you to explain that further.

Quote:

Today, it is non fiction and much will be recorded as facts of what came to be true on the day may 14, 2006.



still, 100% lost.  Perhaps you could explain your own personal definition of "fiction" for me.  To me, fiction means fabrication, abstraction, fantasy, actually, something much like the very first statement I quoted above.  To me, that represents fiction more than past or future events.

Quote:

Yesterday, on May 13 2006 it was all just a pipe dream, a possibility, a probability, in the imagination of the mind-fiction.



Again, I would beg to differ on this.  Your views are now turning more metaphysical than physical.  A problem I have with that is metaphysics represents poetry compared to writing a dictionary.  The dictionary clearly outlines facts.  A poem can use the same words, but depending on context they can transform meaning completely.

Quote:

There is no truth in believing that what is fiction today won't become non fiction, factual and true someday up the road.



correct, there is no truth in believing anything whatsoever.  Truth does not depend on its believability.  It doesn't depend on anything.

Quote:

Consider how fictional our world today would look to someone tens, hundreds and thousands of years back in time. What they would see is the truth of today.



you mention it would appear fictional.  that is much different from what IS fictional, like your own take on what people thousands of years ago would be thinking.  You fabircated that mentality, so it is infinitely more fictional than the actual perspective on a futuristic society.

Quote:

Who is to say that what imagination beholds is not the probabilities of what may be in the future, showing itself to us on the screens of our minds?



i agree.  imagination = future.  however that doesnt mean any kid with fingerpaints and a positive attitude is going to cure cancer.  you need to understand your tools.

Quote:

*poof* like magic



not a very factual statement.

Quote:

If one tries to keep the non fiction and fiction isolated from each other, nothing will ever become of anything.



generic, false statement.  always avoid absolutes.

:rolleyes:


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineminijimiRRR
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5642713 - 05/17/06 07:13 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

fiction or non fiction doent matter with religion. all that matters is that people believe it and that what keeps em in line, BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE NEED IT. But some of us dont need those things like religion and see the real truth------ (just something to think about when ur blasted)


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OfflineminijimiRRR
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: minijimiRRR]
    #5642731 - 05/17/06 07:18 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

nm what i said it leads to more un-answered questions.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5642831 - 05/17/06 07:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Should we stop reading Shakespeare?


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5643153 - 05/17/06 08:56 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

i have no idea what either of your replies were in reference to. Obviously you cannot survive off your left or right brain alone. Everything requires a certain degree of creativity and likewise, logic.

If I have any point to my comments, it would be this: The world needs more scientists than philosophers. Everyone is a philosopher, because it is arguably much easier than being a scientist.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5643261 - 05/17/06 09:17 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Should we stop reading Shakespeare?



Interestingly enough, I heard a theory that Shakespeare might not have written any of the works attributed to him. Obviously we should throw all those frauds in the garbage dump where they belong.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5643369 - 05/17/06 09:39 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

:lol: I'm trying to figure out how to reply to all of these little boxes. I'll re-box, bolding your replies in each.


Quote:

It doesn't matter when you pan out the view.
This statement pretty much explains a difference in perspective.  To me, this statement is too generic and abstract to contain any meaningful truths or information.  The same reason I see paint splattered on a canvas and I don't recognize art sometimes I guess.




That statement only served to explain why and how some see the difference not to matter so much.  When your face is two feet away from a door, a little nick in it at eye level matters. When you are 100 feet back from the door, you don't even notice the nick anymore When 10,000 feet away from the door, the door itself becomes pretty insignificant to the grander view of things.

Just because a door has a nick/flaw in it doesn't mean the whole door is useless.

Do you want to spend your life anally nitpicking at minor nicks and flaws while missing out on the grander view of thingsor kicking back relaxed enjoying the grander view of things missing out on the tiny nicks and flaws that really don't matter from there?

Yes, it was about perspective and choice and why some choose the latter related to this topic.

Spore wants to nit pick over if a book was properly labeled, non fiction, fiction, or autobiography.  :confused: Does  a nick in a door render it useless? NO. Neither does the subject category a book is labeled under make the contents of a book useless.

What are you going to do if you find a bit of fiction in a book categorized under non fiction by the publisher. Are you going to say, "OH! :mad2: This author is being dishonest and is now uncredible and not worth reading. I advise everyone not to buy the book and if you already have it, throw it in the trash."

That's ridiculous. If you want to argue in defence of mental neurosis and extreme irrational behavior go right ahead.  :smile::thumbup:

Quote:

Everything that will happen in the world today was fiction yesterday.
I disagree.  Tomorrow is simply today's anticipations. Yesterday is a memory of an experience.  Nothing mentioned is fiction, I would like you to explain that further.




Anything that you believe will happen tomorrow is all in your imagination at this point. Same stuff fiction is made of.

Yesterdays happenings in the physical world were already realized-non fiction.

Yesterday was the tomorrow of two days ago.

And just because something was realized yesterday, doesn't mean it's forever etched in concrete. I realized a new flower bloom yesterday. It was really truly and honestly there. I even have a picture of it to prove it to you.

Now today, its gone. :shrug: Does that mean I must've photo shopped a fake picture of a flower? Does it mean I was lying about seeing and smelling it? Did I just make up the experience in my imagination?

Quote:

Today, it is non fiction and much will be recorded as facts of what came to be true on the day may 14, 2006.
still, 100% lost.  Perhaps you could explain your own personal definition of "fiction" for me.  To me, fiction means fabrication, abstraction, fantasy, actually, something much like the very first statement I quoted above.  To me, that represents fiction more than past or future events.




We are using the same definition of fiction. Prove tomorrow to me? You can't. If you tried too today, your attempt at it would fall somewhere under what you described as fiction.

Prove to me what you ate for lunch last Thursday. Whatever you ate was really there and you really ate it and its a fact of truth to you. Prove it to me. Any attempt you make at doing so I could say falls somewhere under your definition of fiction and you can't defend yourself with the truth because it's already gone.

Is it honest or truthful of me to call you a liar and fraud because you can't prove it to me now?

Again, try to pin every cliam down as fact or fiction, true or false, with absolute permanence and assuredly, to stand for all of time, and you will go mad or at least appear mad crazy to others.

Quote:

Yesterday, on May 13 2006 it was all just a pipe dream, a possibility, a probability, in the imagination of the mind-fiction.
Again, I would beg to differ on this.  Your views are now turning more metaphysical than physical.  A problem I have with that is metaphysics represents poetry compared to writing a dictionary.  The dictionary clearly outlines facts.  A poem can use the same words, but depending on context they can transform meaning completely.




Are you sure of what forum you read the original post in? Philosophy and Spirituality. The post was about books of Philosophical/Spiritual teachings such as those of Castaneda (which I know is what spawned this post).

We're not talking about literature like Popular Mechanics Magazine or Medical Journals on how to perform Neurosurgery. If we were, and spore said he read an article claiming that grape jelly could be substituted for motor oil, I would understand his post. If he said he read an article that claimed you can ram a kitchen fork into the back of your head to cure Parkinson's disease, I would understand his post.

We are talking about books people read to enhance and empower their lives philosophically and spiritually.

Quote:

Consider how fictional our world today would look to someone tens, hundreds and thousands of years back in time. What they would see is the truth of today.
you mention it would appear fictional.  that is much different from what IS fictional, like your own take on what people thousands of years ago would be thinking.  You fabricated that mentality, so it is infinitely more fictional than the actual perspective on a futuristic society.




How so? I wasn't talking about bringing someone from 1000 years ago into today. I was talking about being able to go back in time and tell someone about what todays world looks like. I don't have to fabricate the mentality. If some dude on the street walked up to you and said, "I am from the future year 3025. We have blah blah and can do blah blah" It would all sound like science fiction to you and it would also really be science fiction to you today. Not for the guy from the year 3025.


Quote:

Who is to say that what imagination beholds is not the probabilities of what may be in the future, showing itself to us on the screens of our minds?
i agree.  imagination = future.  however that doesn't mean any kid with fingerpaints and a positive attitude is going to cure cancer.  you need to understand your tools.




Your analogy doesn't fit. Someone who in their imagination happens to see a way for preventing the formation of cancer cells with their understanding of biology could bring the cure to realization in the future with what he saw and realized in his imaginative mind first. I'm thinking of how Einstien imagined riding on a light particle and new insight and discoveries came to him.

Quote:

If one tries to keep the non fiction and fiction isolated from each other, nothing will ever become of anything.
generic, false statement.  always avoid absolutes.




Ding Ding Ding Ding in the end, he gets it! :laugh: :thumbup: :thumbup:

Non fiction and fiction should not be treated like two isolated absolutes if you want to keep with the truths of reality. That's the whole point of all I have been saying here. Yeesh!:rolleyes:  j/k:lol:

:peace: :heart:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Silversoul]
    #5643428 - 05/17/06 09:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Interestingly enough, I heard a theory that Shakespeare might not have written any of the works attributed to him. Obviously we should throw all those frauds in the garbage dump where they belong.




I find it interesting too. The most convincing argument is that Francis Bacon wrote most of the material (among other people) and that the actual William S. was illiterate, and could not write legibally.

jiggy: give me a minute to work on that.. haha. Your approach is very akward, and I have problems putting your comments into a reasonable context for my own understanding.


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Edited by kotik (05/17/06 09:56 PM)


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5643479 - 05/17/06 10:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Seems then you probably agree with the administration that the fiction put out regarding psychedelics and cannabis is not damaging and should be labeled as facts.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5643532 - 05/17/06 10:24 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Kotik said:

The world needs more scientists than philosophers. Everyone is a philosopher, because it is arguably much easier than being a scientist.




Are you kidding with us? Every child and human being is a natural scientist. Watch a 3 year old at play. He will be exploring, testing, discovering, and asking shit loads of curious questions.

I suppose you consider the herds and drones running around in the rat race and getting into debt to keep up with the Joneses, living under the sound philosophy and spiritual insight they are easily innovating for themselves?  :confused:

Humans dropped atomic bombs unto thousands of children and you say the world needs more scientists and less philosophers? :what:

How are scientists going to solve the conflict and mess in the middle east?

Do you really think we need more scientists figuring out how to make more prescription drugs to mask symptoms while adding undesirable side effects to the original problem? :foreheadslap:

If I see one more commercial asking me if I am tired when I wake up and then telling me, I need to take newly formulated zortax for it , I'm going to.........laugh as usual, when they read off,
"side effects may include, dizziness, nausea, diarrhea, fatigue:what: and erectile dysfunction."

This world has gone lop sided dude and its not in favor of sound philosphies and insighting into non invasive problem resolution.


:peace: :heart:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5643544 - 05/17/06 10:26 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

had to bold a few things instead of quoting:

Quote:

When your face is two feet away from a door, a little nick in it at eye level matters. When you are 100 feet back from the door, you don't even notice the nick anymore When 10,000 feet away from the door, the door itself becomes pretty insignificant to the grander view of things.

Just because a door has a nick/flaw in it doesn't mean the whole door is useless.




again, wonderful insight, but this does not apply.  you are describing perspective in the same reality.  lets bring this discussion to the assumption we are in the 3rd dimension, and proven scientific "facts" outweight what I would personally call wishes / fantasy.

Quote:

Do you want to spend your life anally nitpicking at minor nicks and flaws while missing out on the grander view of thingsor kicking back relaxed enjoying the grander view of things missing out on the tiny nicks and flaws that really don't matter from there?





personal preference you mean?  I am somewhat of a reverse-engineer at heart, so yes I like to tinker with things and question them to exhaustion, it's just my nature.  The fact that you would rather kick back and relax and just say that "nicks and flaws" "really don't matter" just shows that we are coming from two different mindsets.

Quote:

What are you going to do if you find a bit of fiction in a book categorized under non fiction by the publisher. Are you going to say, "OH! This author is being dishonest and is now uncredible and not worth reading. I advise everyone not to buy the book and if you already have it, throw it in the trash."




nope, won't catch me saying that.  won't catch me making such rash assumptions either.
Quote:


That's ridiculous. If you want to argue in defence of mental neurosis and extreme irrational behavior go right ahead.




so you are now arguing against my hypothetical answer to your rhetorical question?  now what is ridiculous?  Honestly, this has gotten way off topic.

Quote:

Anything that you believe will happen tomorrow is all in your imagination at this point. Same stuff fiction is made of.




agreed 100%.  however there is a difference between someone that believes they will win the lottery, and someone that believes if they set their alarm it will go off in the morning.  each require a certain degree of assumption, however one is based on "facts."  the experiences you ahve personally gone through, as opposed to those you fantasize about.  this is the very heart of fact vs fiction, and i am extending it (foolishly, i admit) to science vs philosophy.  but I would fold if I had to defend that last part, so please accept it as hyperbole.

Quote:

Yesterday was the tomorrow of two days ago.




can you hear my one hand clapping at the profoundness of this statement?  :rolleyes:

Quote:

I realized a new flower bloom yesterday. It was really truly and honestly there. I even have a picture of it to prove it to you.
Now today, its gone. Does that mean I must've photo shopped a fake picture of a flower? Does it mean I was lying about seeing and smelling it? Did I just make up the experience in my imagination?




no, not at all.  again, assuming my answers then arguing with them.  you are arguing with yourself.  if you see a flower bloom, it would be reasonable to make assumptions (which are the same stuff fiction is made of) that you could see it bloom again, or at least be able to take that dead flower into a lab and have the dna documented.

now however, if you told me that the flower bloomed and you took it, but it vanished into thin air after it wilted...  then i would probably tell you whatever you were selling, i didn't want any and continue on my way.

We are using the same definition of fiction. Prove tomorrow to me? You can't. If you tried too today, your attempt at it would fall somewhere under what you described as fiction.

heh, the beauty of that challenge would be to say "give me 24 hours and I'll have proof."  Proof of tomorrow is not a correct way to look at it either.  Time is simply a measurement of events, based on the movements of stars and etc.  That I can prove, but to prove the concept of tomorrow would be like me asking you to prove "3:24 am" to me.

Prove to me what you ate for lunch last Thursday.

this could be done easily.  I will not go into detail, for reasons I hope are obvious to you and everyone else.

Again, try to pin every cliam down as fact or fiction, true or false, with absolute permanence and assuredly, to stand for all of time, and you will go mad or at least appear mad crazy to others.

again, agreed.  however true vs false is not fact vs fiction.  true / false are both facts.  if you can agree to that, i believe you may be able to see where i am coming from.  It would be hard for me to agree otherwise.

"We're not talking about literature like Popular Mechanics Magazine or Medical Journals on how to perform Neurosurgery."

i beg to differ.  I consider those to be fact.  And I think that if more people understood the facts in those publications as opposed to every character in every star wars movie, or harry potter books, or etc. (please don't think I'm bashing either) then we would all be much better off.  However that is opinion, not fact.

Quote:

If some dude on the street walked up to you and said, "I am from the future year 3025. We have blah blah and can do blah blah" It would all sound like science fiction to you and it would also really be science fiction to you today. Not for the guy from the year 3025.




there would be logical, rational questions if this were truly the case.  Im quite familiar with John Titor ( http://www.johntitor.com/ ) which sounds much like what you are talking about.

Quote:

Someone who in their imagination happens to see a way for preventing the formation of cancer cells with their understanding of biology could bring the cure to realization in the future with what he saw and realized in his imaginative mind first.




right, so the premise is that their imagination is based on FACTS learned in biology, and not just some random dream about talking shoes or the like.  If a biologist had a dream the next night about talking shoes, would that have as much credit?  rhetorical.

Quote:

I'm thinking of how Einstien imagined riding on a light particle and new insight and discoveries came to him.

Ding Ding Ding Ding in the end, he gets it!




i find the concept of you jumping into a late einsteins' mind and understanding his insight as borderline offensive.

Quote:

Non fiction and fiction should not be treated like two isolated absolutes if you want to keep with the truths of reality.




agreed.

Quote:

Yeesh! j/k




:thumbup:  :cool:


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5643555 - 05/17/06 10:28 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Humans dropped atomic bombs unto thousands of children and you say the world needs more scientists and less philosophers?

yes yes yes yes.

yes.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643564 - 05/17/06 10:30 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Seems then you probably agree with the administration that the fiction put out regarding psychedelics and cannabis is not damaging and should be labeled as facts.





Was your post HONESTLY referring to published literature on the safety of psychedelic and cannabis drug use?

That would change things.

Lets get clear on what type of literature and for what use your post was addressing.

If you weren't referring to authors like Castaneda, Deepak Chopra, Plato, Neitche, Alan Watts and Apostle Thomas, would you please make it clear now what you were referring too, so we are not off topic and discussing something out of context.

:peace: :heart:


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5643589 - 05/17/06 10:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Lets get clear on what type of literature and for what use your post was addressing.




I gotcha. Now you want to arbitrarily assign to which authors and sources and subjects the truth is valid and end up sounding like a lawyer or Washingtonian politician. Now you will enter a never-ending morass.

My approach is clean and simple with no sub-clauses.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5643697 - 05/17/06 10:59 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I'll spare everyone the boxes now.

I am actually more of a reverse engineer myself and have posted about that several times in the past on metaphysical subjects. I also love to tinker instead of follow directions and just posted about that too in the teacher post. My home is near tedious perfection because tiny flaws jump out at me and drive me nuts. Thats how I know you will go mad if you don't learn how to pull your perspective back to keep rational balance in life.

We have not been on the same wavelength through this discussion is why we are misunderstanding each other where we are.

Indeed, you are totally coming from a 3-D perspective. If I was also, I would be saying something else about this topic, which by the way, I am waiting for clearance on. I thought it was about spiritual and philosophical books posing as non-fiction and I still say, "It doesn't matter to me".

I won't go purely 3-D simply because, I can have a 3-D convo with any shmo off the street. That's not what I come here for.

If the anal people want such books better categorized for those lacking common sense and the ability to discern and investigate for themselves, then get BUSY with it! :crankey:Find those imposter's and demand relabeling from the publishers or threaten to sue!:hehehe:

Anayway, what do you think more scientists should be working on if I may ask.

:peace: :heart:


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643812 - 05/17/06 11:29 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

Lets get clear on what type of literature and for what use your post was addressing.




I gotcha. Now you want to arbitrarily assign to which authors and sources and subjects the truth is valid and end up sounding like a lawyer or Washingtonian politician. Now you will enter a never-ending morass.

My approach is clean and simple with no sub-clauses.




Got me on what? The hook of a trolls fishing line? :rofl2: You slapped this puppy up because of the Castaneda and Alan Watts posts and you know it.

Then you pretend like you are referring to science medical literature because you know responses to the other literature will sound silly if you now apply them to science medical literature. Old trolling trick. I know it and saw it coming after your psychedelic safety information question.

You should correct yourself and say, "You almost caught me falling for that one." NOT!

If I am reading for philosophical or spiritual insight, fiction or non fiction, it doesn't matter to me I can get it from both. That's why it doesn't matter to me. I get so much  meta-physical/spiritual insight off of a science physics alone. I also get it off gibberish. It doesn't matter to me. I'll tinker with anything.

If I need to know what how my dishwasher works so I can fix it, or what chemicals are safe to use on my flowers when treating for pests, then of course it matters more.

Even still, if I picked up a book on the mechanics of dishwashers and it said, the sneaker is connected to the rag doll, I would know to blow that part off. If the chemical treatment book said, Fire is the best way to rid your garden of destructive insects,  I would know to blow that part off, and keep looking for something safe for my plants. 

I have slapped my forehead so many times typing in this thread wondering who these morons are you are wanting to protect with fiction and non fiction labels.

Clue me in. And please spare me the Jim Jones and Heavens Gate tales. Cigarette packs are labeled with Cancer warnings and billions of people world wide smoke em anyway. Someone looking for a quick or slow death or to self destruct will find a way to pull it off no matter what you try to control with labels.

I'm out of this "dishonest" thread as you would call it. I call it a troll. :wink::japsmile:

:peace: :heart:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5643852 - 05/17/06 11:38 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Humans dropped atomic bombs unto thousands of children and you say the world needs more scientists and less philosophers? :what:




In your opinion, was WWII scientist's fault?


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Silversoul]
    #5643866 - 05/17/06 11:43 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

All this New-Historicism is beginning to make me ill.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643905 - 05/17/06 11:50 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I was wondering how I could've misinterpreted that your thread was about ALL literature, and not S&P stuff. So I went to read your first post again and yup, I interpreted it correctly-

Quote:

IMHO there are way too many posts saying it doesn't 'really' matter if Christ raised people from the dead or Castaneda jumped off a cliff. It is ALL allegory.




If its all allegory then so are scientific and medical journals as well as all NON fiction books for that matter.

Are you saying all non fiction is allegory too or not?

You know you were referring to just S&P literature. For any newbies, it's called the bait and switch technique and is used by trolls here.  :nono:

:peace: :heart:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643928 - 05/17/06 11:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Is there something inherently wrong about allegories?
Should I discard the themes and symbolism of Herman Melville because it wasn't based on real events?


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5644585 - 05/18/06 02:30 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
My approach is clean and simple with no sub-clauses.



Not to mention completely close-minded, unimaginative, and unimpressive. Have you ever actually sat down and read a novel?


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Silversoul]
    #5645207 - 05/18/06 06:46 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anayway, what do you think more scientists should be working on if I may ask.




haha hell if i know. they should work on being smart little bastards.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5645882 - 05/18/06 01:15 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Jiggy, I will spare boxes as well.
I simply make a distinction between fiction in the future (most common for my understanding) and fiction about the present and past. First thing is absolutely natural and a big statement for our human being and gratitude, possibilities, farsight, fantasy, inspiration and whatever.
Fiction on the past and present should be taken a huge view on. It matters if someone makes something from the past or present on pure fantasy, especially if he labels it as fact in a provable way. If he knows that that told stuff never happened but continues to pretends it is/was pure (objective) fact, then this is called a lie (hint to honesty) and the motives for that lie have to be explored and mentioned. At least the possible explanations or the hint to 'subjective' experience. If one labels his regardings on the past and present as subjective, everyone will enjoy his tellings and will get a great insight on the 'tales teller's' psyche and the underlying, perhaps mostly spiritual lines :smile:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5646185 - 05/18/06 02:40 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hey Blue!

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. I do. I also see other perspectives on this that make it all not matter much-to me. Here are a few examples-

Take the story of Jesus walking on water. Fact or Fiction?

Did Jesus REALLY walk on water or was it metaphor for rising above his emotional body, or is the whole story of doubting Thomas made up just to encourage faith,  or something else? :shrug:

They are all interesting to contemplate.

Is levitation possible with the powers of the mind? Cool thoughts to dwell in. Pure fantasy to me as I can't do it and know of no one who has -yet.

Was it metaphor for trusting that everything will be okay and not to let your emotional fears pull you down and under in life? That's what I think it was and that is "wisdom" to me that has practical and applicable use in life. SCORED a GEM!

Did the church edit that one in to get people to keep the faith in the power of their God, to keep people filling the coffers? I already know the Roman Catholic Church corrupted the Bible and has been corrupt. They've admitted to a lot of it.

I still found a GEM of wisdom to use and thats what the rest of us are saying. WE have the ability to find those gems for ourselves in literature and it doesn't matter, with examples like that, if the literature is fact or fiction.

Is that so hard to understand?


Maybe he actually did know how to levitate and maybe he knew there was wisdom to the metaphorical value of the story for those who wouldn't believe it literally, and maybe, the church added that story to the Bible, not believing a word of it themselves, but because they wanted others too.

Maybe there is multi layered truth to that story and its all true.

Reality is very multidimensional to me and so is truth like the layers of an onion. It just keeps adding unto itself as new information comes along.

Here is another perspective on this topic. We live in a world of utter Bullshit. Knee deep in it we are. Advertisers lie to us, friends and family lie to us, governments lie to us, the media lies to us, employers and employees lie to us, the FDA lies to us, etc.

Who the heck can you truly really trust in this world but YOURSELF?

Just because something is labeled non-fiction, doesn't mean I will blindly believe it. Just because something says the FDA approved something to be safe, doesn't mean I believe. Just because the government says, they have proof IRAQ has WPDs, doesn't mean I believe it.

The credibility labels don't matter to me because when something seriously matters to me, I will explore and investigate it and or test it out for myself ANYWAY.

That's ultimately why I tend to take the "It doesn't matter" attitude, for anyone who cares to understand why someone may think that way.

I understand why some *cough*lazy*cough people would prefer for the whole world to get straight up honest overnight so they don't have to think for themselves and ask questions and they can sleep walk through life.

When you find the honest place within, that you can trust, it doesn't matter who else isn't being honest. You "know".

Spend time reading through what "some" think is rubbish and you can pick up gems to help you develop the insight to lie detect, and smell out foul fish pretty easily anyway. Being able to see the big picture (expanding awareness) is one of the greatest tools for doing that.

If you keep tight focus on the great ass walking by, or the shameful guy wearing the politically incorrect shirt on the corner,  you'll miss the guy picking your back pocket.

It doesn't matter much to me because in the end, I will decide for myself what is fact or fiction to me. I certainly don't want some book publisher doing it for me. If anyone else needs or wants them too, then fine. Like I told Kotik, have at them ad start suing for fraud! :cool:

Thank you very much for your time Mr. Occubano.  :smile:

:japsmile:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5646903 - 05/18/06 06:08 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

....

Quote:


Quote:

Science is methodologically incapable of understanding what motivates and enables its ability to produce facts and is therefore blind to its own foundationalist worldview.




now this i can debate. Philosophy is a precursor to science in many ways. The "problem" (for lack of a better word at 8am) with philosophy is that the entire process takes place within the minds, ears and mouths of people, coming upon "findings" and even "solutions" all through mental process. Philosophy is always in theory, it does not always apply in the same way science does, regardless of culture, environment or etc. Science is simply the ability to take a philisophical idea, and put it into physical terms; being able to test the theory and turn it into something that can be observed by anyone.





The same applies to science.

In addition, I could try to disprove what you're saying, but whether it is true or not is not relevant. Your statement about what science is has no bearing upon my statement about science as an activity / the conception of facts.

Quote:


Quote:

Science presupposes an entire rationalism (a presupposition of the justification of *fact*, or the cult of fact) which leads one exponentially farther away from the truth the more one readily one believes that the methods of science reveal some essential truth (i.e. something beyond the factual).




this is an personal problem, not a problem with science. When you say it "leads one away," you are really saying "those who don't understand get confused." It's somewhat obvious, and should not be associated with science, while at the same time you must recognize that you cannot really dismiss anyone from being a philosopher.. because again, its physical theory vs metaphysical theory in many situations. To those who do understand real science, it is not something that provides "facts." If anything, it simply reveals what is most unlikely in a given situation, provided you also know what factors are in play.





Please tell me what you mean with "personal problem".

What is my "problem" is this: that this is a valid philosophical critic of science. It is a critique of science as Science, and science on the level of fact (science within Science). It's quite a textbook critique and is hardly contested anymore by even reflective scientists.

What you say I am saying is not what I am saying, what I am saying is what I said above. You're confusing though, the difference between the conception and practices of science with the theories, methodologies and ideals of Science. See my discussion with Ammon (sp?) about this about one month ago. I've had other discussions about this on the Shroomery too.

As a tangent (my personal opinion, but also backed up by facts, norms, and well-conceived arguments): it is not a matter of empirism vs. metaphysical theories. This is, what Rorty might call, a dualistic and epistemological way of viewing thought, philosophy, the history of philosophy, etc. I think it is unwise and untrue to reduce the field to these terms. Would you say that phenomenology, hermeneutics, egoism, ______, is metaphysical theory?

What is "real science"?

Quote:


Quote:

any narcissist can say something nice about himself/herself, but no narcissist can speak about himself/herself free from their narcissism




maybe its just early, but i have no idea what you are talking about.





This can be seen as either a beat-around-the-bush, or a very clear, illustration of what I said in the previous paragraph. Perhaps you not understanding this is why you fail to understand my discussion on the level of science as conception and not science as idealized practice.

Once again, I said: Any narcissist can say something nice about himself/herself, but no narcissist can speak about himself/herself free from their narcissism. What I mean to show is that anyone with a certain disposition can easily confirm the use of that disposition, since they are working from within the view of that disposition, but no one with a certain disposition can utterly transcend that disposition. Let's rephrase it: Any scientist can say something about the practice of science and the usefulness of facts, but no science practicing science can at the same time (perhaps never) question the foundations of what enables them to implement the usefulness of science in any instance (especially this one).


Quote:


this all really reflects the topic of this thread. To me, fiction vs non-fiction DOES matter. If you spend your entire life reading and fantasizing about unicorns and making wishes and etc. I would argue that after 30-40 years of that mentality, you will in fact, be less reasonable when interacting with an "average" person. Again, lack of a better word.. think average in the context of a bell curve).

I'll also add here that those who have no imagination at all, are also at fault in some ways, because they may also fall into a mindset where certain things just aren't possible, when scientific theories can be incomplete most of the time. I actually see many connections between philosophy and scientific theory, in fact they use the same mental processes, regardless of the intended result. It's only the application and intention of ideas that set the two apart.




Fiction and non-fiction matters for those it matters for. If they disappeared it would no longer matter. It matters for me too, but not as a means of proving something ontologically, but rather it is an instrumental difference and I do not take it as something REAL.

Those unicorns and wish-making(s) are in contrast to a reality. I do not think it's possible to read fiction without being rooted in an understanding of what is non-fiction. They precule, include and exclude one another. Without fiction, non-fiction would not be fully intelligible and therefore there would be no disastrous detriment on one's mind as you propose there would be. But as you say "you will in fact, be less reasonable..." -- and that's what this is all about for you: facts, but facts are a very small matter. Let's leave that for science within its own realm.

Should the average person dictate the norms of all thinking?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5649533 - 05/19/06 11:43 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Of course, everybody has to think for himself, but to say, there is so much BS that it doesn't matter anymore, I can't see as beautiful.
I take honest people just more serious, while I let dishonest ones babble around and give them no credit.
Intentional lies are one of the worst things to me and a way to loose every respect in my eye.
There I am quite simple :wink:
Occubano ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5650435 - 05/19/06 04:05 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Blue,

Then maybe you have yet to realize the beauty in non matter. :shrug:

Haven't you ever been faced with something and felt torn, because a mental principle told you one thing and your heart told you something else about it? And didn't you ever decide to say, that mental principle of what is right doesn't matter, when this something in your heart feels so right, it supercedes the principle? Then you went with your heart and were set free from being pulled and torn apart?

This is how determining truth best works for me and how it sets me free. When ever I side with the principle of material rights, I end up in the ugly shitz of life. In those moments I let go, I've known no greater beauty because its the same essense of unconditional love, where the non matter resides within me.

Principles lead to making objective judgments about, what is right or wrong, good  or bad, true or false, and that leads to separating things from one another, condemnation and that leads to conflict.

Sometimes, it's like taking home from the pound the dog no body else wants  wants because he's flawed. He's a little champ to you. And one day, he saves your life. You "knew".

The whole world can be one giant lie, one giant flaw and I can let that not matter to me, any time I choose to. And when I do, I am loving life, loving people, flying high and feeling free when I am in that "place" within me, where the non matter dwells.

Something beautiful happened for me last night along these lines. Someone was spewing shit related to something that has held me down in the muck of duality conflict for thousands of years. I had these principles about "fairness", showing respect for other peoples creations, and taking pride in things done well.

They have lead me time and time again to take very defensive action, protecting those principles, all the while, they keep shoving me further into the mud and ugliness of conflict.

How can something like holding principles of fairness, respect for other peoples things, and pride in something done well, be something so ugly? It sounds good, and like good ones to live with, that should lead to goodness and yet, they haven't.

Protecting things of importance in matter? Not beautiful to me blue. War is never beautiful. Some times fun, but not beautiful. :shake: Whoever said war was a neccesary evil is full of shit.

Let the things of matter go if someone else needs them that badly, if you want the truth to set you free.  There is no freedom for the self or soul, when one is bound in war over principles of matter.

Anyway, I was able to do that over a biggie last night. I almost went to get defensive against someone, over something I have been at war with for thousands of years. I finally let go of it. They can have it. It doesn't matter to me anymore.

And in letting go of the matter of it, I finally "got the essense of it back." :lol: I'm free to enjoy it now, because it was never in the material things I placed importance on, over "principles". It was in me all along and no one can ever take that away.  I don't know how I missed that simple truth all this time related to that event, the truth that would set me free of something that has held me captive for life times in density and conflict here.

You asked me in the revelations post about manna,  how I could see that we can die and be born into new life while still being alive. The proverbial demons within that suck the life blood from us can die, when we stop feeding them. More manna to bring us back to experiencing life with. :yesnod:

That's the ticket.  :smile:

(thats an SNL catch phrase and so is "Thank you Mr. Occubano", I think)

My view on all of this comes from personal experience. It doesn't mean it is right. It just means, it's what is right for me about the subject. :wink:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650445 - 05/19/06 04:07 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Sometimes, it's like taking home from the pound the dog no body else wants wants because he's flawed. He's a little champ to you. And one day, he saves your life. You "knew".





My best bud adopted a near-feral cat. The cat pissed on (and ruined) his $5000 leather sofa.


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I'm Sporetacus!


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650448 - 05/19/06 04:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

That sofa might have killed him. That cat most likely saved his life. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Icelander]
    #5650453 - 05/19/06 04:10 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Hmmmm....  :confused:


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650529 - 05/19/06 04:36 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

I have no problem with 'no matter' and even can see its beauty, while I can see it in 'matter' as well.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650536 - 05/19/06 04:37 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Well then, your friends story would not "be at all like" the one I described for blue to have a different sort of experience to relate what i was saying too.

Your friends story would describe what attachment suffering is like. If your friends $5,000 sofa matters so much to him, he shouldn't allow any living thing in the room. What if a 3 year old colored on it with permanent marker? What's he going to do if there is a bad storm and the roof leeks on it and ruins it? :hissyfit: :bitch:

If he handled it with any remorse for taking the cat in, he can't afford to be buying $5,000 couches. 

Do you think the cat even knows what the value of $5,000 baubles mean to some people? Cats don't understand materilistic values. Litter, leather, it's all a place to pee when you're a cat and you gotta go.

Had your friend been honest with himself and knew what meant more to him, nurturing a life unconditionally, or taking pride in a $5,000 sofa, he would have made a decision not to bring the cat home or experienced a response to the event, that would have freed him from experiencing any sense of loss that really mattered in the big scheme of things. 

Blame the Cat! Take no responsibility for his role in what happened. Classic swami! 

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5650574 - 05/19/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I have no problem with 'no matter' and even can see its beauty, while I can see it in 'matter' as well.




You once said that placing appreciation "value" on material things "matter" is the downfall of humankind and what has lead to the worlds greed, conflict, poverty and suffering.

If you can see the beauty in non matter, then, why is it so hard for you to see the beauty in people saying, "Fact or fiction? It doesn't matter if I can learn something from it." ?

:peace: :heart:


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650602 - 05/19/06 05:09 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You once said that placing appreciation "value" on material things "matter" is the downfall of humankind and what has lead to the worlds greed, conflict, poverty and suffering.




Hehe, wow, really ? I must have been angry.
I see some problems, evaluating matter too much, but intended lie is almost as ungood as this :wink:

So why does this all matter to me ? I strongly dislike confabulated stories to fool people. I fully can understand the metaphorical meanings behind the stories, but they may not presented as true, as they never happened that way, if.
It even blinds ones own metaphoric interpretation if one literally sees Jesus walking over the sea. It robs fantasy, it robs spirit, it robs faith if it is presented literally and meant metaphorically..


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5650734 - 05/19/06 05:55 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

It even blinds ones own metaphoric interpretation if one literally sees Jesus walking over the sea. It robs fantasy, it robs spirit, it robs faith if it is presented literally and meant metaphorically..




Now this I dig if thats more of the base of where you are coming from.

Reminds of something moog shared in MR&P about Theuth giving Thamus written language praising what it will do for his people.

Quote:

Thamus replied: O most ingenious Theuth, the parent or inventor of an art is not always the best judge of the utility or inutility of his own inventions to the users of them. And in this instance, you who are the father of letters, from a paternal love of your own children have been led to attribute to them a quality which they cannot have; for this discovery of yours will create forgetfulness in the learners' souls, because they will not use their memories; they will trust to the external written characters and not remember of themselves. The specific which you have discovered is an aid not to memory, but to reminiscence, and you give your disciples not truth, but only the semblance of truth; they will be hearers of many things and will have learned nothing; they will appear to be omniscient and will generally know nothing; they will be tiresome company, having the show of wisdom without the reality.




I was thinking about my approach to homeschooling the other day. So much vibrant learning is going on in the hands on learning side of it. When it comes to the side of transferring what has been learned down to paper with pen, it becomes so dull and flat for my daughter all of a sudden, and the spirit is gone from her doing that part.

Even if I give her a creative writing assignment, she slows versus if she is verbalizing a story where she can keep her body animated while telling it. That she loves. When having to just sit there and write it out, she ends up adding lots of little pictures on the side and her i's are all dotted with hearts, and her periods at the end of sentences are shaped like Hibiscus flowers.

I have yet to get her to just write out sheets of nothing but sterile letters. It's like I am asking her to put a knife in her heart when I do that.

Just my way of relating that i understand what you are saying there and see it too.

Yet, I do not feel that it should be in the control of anyone but myself to decide for me, what of metaphor I can make literal by materializing it, or what of the literal, I can see metaphor of intangible use with.

That doesn't even matter though. People can put as many controls on the labels that they want too. I DON'T have a problem with that blue. categorize away if you feel it a must for yourself or others.

It won't stop me or others from making of what we will of things anyway.

Like I said, put a literal cancer warning label on cigarettes and people will romanticize and smoke em anyway.

Put a "this is approved by the FDA for your safe use" label on something and some people will die from it anyway.

Just because a correct, honest, or credible authoritative label is put on something, doesn't mean, everyone who goes to consider use of the product (books included) are going to head warnings or take something proven good and have an adverse effect to it.

I think I may be repeating myself now so, I don't think I have much more to say on this subject that I haven't already.

Just know, that I don't have a problem with people wanting fiction labels put on fictional material. Thats not what I am addressing here. All I am saying is, that either way, I'll do what I want with it and explained why.

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650909 - 05/19/06 06:48 PM (15 years, 8 months ago)

This thread makes me feel like I'm drinking Bourbon.


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OfflineSprings
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5652342 - 05/20/06 07:05 AM (15 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
Quote:

You once said that placing appreciation "value" on material things "matter" is the downfall of humankind and what has lead to the worlds greed, conflict, poverty and suffering.




Hehe, wow, really ? I must have been angry.
I see some problems, evaluating matter too much, but intended lie is almost as ungood as this :wink:

So why does this all matter to me ? I strongly dislike confabulated stories to fool people. I fully can understand the metaphorical meanings behind the stories, but they may not presented as true, as they never happened that way, if.
It even blinds ones own metaphoric interpretation if one literally sees Jesus walking over the sea. It robs fantasy, it robs spirit, it robs faith if it is presented literally and meant metaphorically..




I can understand that, I just dont agree that it robs from the spirit or robs faith, no matter what way it is presented. Like you said you can fully understand the metaphorical meaning behind the stories. I think its fair to say that its in the eye of the beholder. Wether they are blinded or not by influence of outside sources or not.

I think maybe your concern is to do with the worry of others being decieved?


:heart:


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starptv23 4,529 34 07/26/05 07:16 AM
by Huehuecoyotl

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