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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
jiggy
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5643697 - 05/17/06 10:59 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I'll spare everyone the boxes now.

I am actually more of a reverse engineer myself and have posted about that several times in the past on metaphysical subjects. I also love to tinker instead of follow directions and just posted about that too in the teacher post. My home is near tedious perfection because tiny flaws jump out at me and drive me nuts. Thats how I know you will go mad if you don't learn how to pull your perspective back to keep rational balance in life.

We have not been on the same wavelength through this discussion is why we are misunderstanding each other where we are.

Indeed, you are totally coming from a 3-D perspective. If I was also, I would be saying something else about this topic, which by the way, I am waiting for clearance on. I thought it was about spiritual and philosophical books posing as non-fiction and I still say, "It doesn't matter to me".

I won't go purely 3-D simply because, I can have a 3-D convo with any shmo off the street. That's not what I come here for.

If the anal people want such books better categorized for those lacking common sense and the ability to discern and investigate for themselves, then get BUSY with it! :crankey:Find those imposter's and demand relabeling from the publishers or threaten to sue!:hehehe:

Anayway, what do you think more scientists should be working on if I may ask.

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643812 - 05/17/06 11:29 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
Quote:

Lets get clear on what type of literature and for what use your post was addressing.




I gotcha. Now you want to arbitrarily assign to which authors and sources and subjects the truth is valid and end up sounding like a lawyer or Washingtonian politician. Now you will enter a never-ending morass.

My approach is clean and simple with no sub-clauses.




Got me on what? The hook of a trolls fishing line? :rofl2: You slapped this puppy up because of the Castaneda and Alan Watts posts and you know it.

Then you pretend like you are referring to science medical literature because you know responses to the other literature will sound silly if you now apply them to science medical literature. Old trolling trick. I know it and saw it coming after your psychedelic safety information question.

You should correct yourself and say, "You almost caught me falling for that one." NOT!

If I am reading for philosophical or spiritual insight, fiction or non fiction, it doesn't matter to me I can get it from both. That's why it doesn't matter to me. I get so much  meta-physical/spiritual insight off of a science physics alone. I also get it off gibberish. It doesn't matter to me. I'll tinker with anything.

If I need to know what how my dishwasher works so I can fix it, or what chemicals are safe to use on my flowers when treating for pests, then of course it matters more.

Even still, if I picked up a book on the mechanics of dishwashers and it said, the sneaker is connected to the rag doll, I would know to blow that part off. If the chemical treatment book said, Fire is the best way to rid your garden of destructive insects,  I would know to blow that part off, and keep looking for something safe for my plants. 

I have slapped my forehead so many times typing in this thread wondering who these morons are you are wanting to protect with fiction and non fiction labels.

Clue me in. And please spare me the Jim Jones and Heavens Gate tales. Cigarette packs are labeled with Cancer warnings and billions of people world wide smoke em anyway. Someone looking for a quick or slow death or to self destruct will find a way to pull it off no matter what you try to control with labels.

I'm out of this "dishonest" thread as you would call it. I call it a troll. :wink::japsmile:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5643852 - 05/17/06 11:38 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

gettinjiggywithit said:
Humans dropped atomic bombs unto thousands of children and you say the world needs more scientists and less philosophers? :what:




In your opinion, was WWII scientist's fault?


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Silversoul]
    #5643866 - 05/17/06 11:43 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

All this New-Historicism is beginning to make me ill.


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643905 - 05/17/06 11:50 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I was wondering how I could've misinterpreted that your thread was about ALL literature, and not S&P stuff. So I went to read your first post again and yup, I interpreted it correctly-

Quote:

IMHO there are way too many posts saying it doesn't 'really' matter if Christ raised people from the dead or Castaneda jumped off a cliff. It is ALL allegory.




If its all allegory then so are scientific and medical journals as well as all NON fiction books for that matter.

Are you saying all non fiction is allegory too or not?

You know you were referring to just S&P literature. For any newbies, it's called the bait and switch technique and is used by trolls here.  :nono:

:peace: :heart:


--------------------
Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5643928 - 05/17/06 11:55 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Is there something inherently wrong about allegories?
Should I discard the themes and symbolism of Herman Melville because it wasn't based on real events?


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InvisibleSilversoul
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5644585 - 05/18/06 02:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sporetacus said:
My approach is clean and simple with no sub-clauses.



Not to mention completely close-minded, unimaginative, and unimpressive. Have you ever actually sat down and read a novel?


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Offlinekotik
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Silversoul]
    #5645207 - 05/18/06 06:46 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Anayway, what do you think more scientists should be working on if I may ask.




haha hell if i know. they should work on being smart little bastards.


--------------------
No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5645882 - 05/18/06 01:15 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Jiggy, I will spare boxes as well.
I simply make a distinction between fiction in the future (most common for my understanding) and fiction about the present and past. First thing is absolutely natural and a big statement for our human being and gratitude, possibilities, farsight, fantasy, inspiration and whatever.
Fiction on the past and present should be taken a huge view on. It matters if someone makes something from the past or present on pure fantasy, especially if he labels it as fact in a provable way. If he knows that that told stuff never happened but continues to pretends it is/was pure (objective) fact, then this is called a lie (hint to honesty) and the motives for that lie have to be explored and mentioned. At least the possible explanations or the hint to 'subjective' experience. If one labels his regardings on the past and present as subjective, everyone will enjoy his tellings and will get a great insight on the 'tales teller's' psyche and the underlying, perhaps mostly spiritual lines :smile:
:heart:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5646185 - 05/18/06 02:40 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hey Blue!

It's not that I don't understand what you are saying. I do. I also see other perspectives on this that make it all not matter much-to me. Here are a few examples-

Take the story of Jesus walking on water. Fact or Fiction?

Did Jesus REALLY walk on water or was it metaphor for rising above his emotional body, or is the whole story of doubting Thomas made up just to encourage faith,  or something else? :shrug:

They are all interesting to contemplate.

Is levitation possible with the powers of the mind? Cool thoughts to dwell in. Pure fantasy to me as I can't do it and know of no one who has -yet.

Was it metaphor for trusting that everything will be okay and not to let your emotional fears pull you down and under in life? That's what I think it was and that is "wisdom" to me that has practical and applicable use in life. SCORED a GEM!

Did the church edit that one in to get people to keep the faith in the power of their God, to keep people filling the coffers? I already know the Roman Catholic Church corrupted the Bible and has been corrupt. They've admitted to a lot of it.

I still found a GEM of wisdom to use and thats what the rest of us are saying. WE have the ability to find those gems for ourselves in literature and it doesn't matter, with examples like that, if the literature is fact or fiction.

Is that so hard to understand?


Maybe he actually did know how to levitate and maybe he knew there was wisdom to the metaphorical value of the story for those who wouldn't believe it literally, and maybe, the church added that story to the Bible, not believing a word of it themselves, but because they wanted others too.

Maybe there is multi layered truth to that story and its all true.

Reality is very multidimensional to me and so is truth like the layers of an onion. It just keeps adding unto itself as new information comes along.

Here is another perspective on this topic. We live in a world of utter Bullshit. Knee deep in it we are. Advertisers lie to us, friends and family lie to us, governments lie to us, the media lies to us, employers and employees lie to us, the FDA lies to us, etc.

Who the heck can you truly really trust in this world but YOURSELF?

Just because something is labeled non-fiction, doesn't mean I will blindly believe it. Just because something says the FDA approved something to be safe, doesn't mean I believe. Just because the government says, they have proof IRAQ has WPDs, doesn't mean I believe it.

The credibility labels don't matter to me because when something seriously matters to me, I will explore and investigate it and or test it out for myself ANYWAY.

That's ultimately why I tend to take the "It doesn't matter" attitude, for anyone who cares to understand why someone may think that way.

I understand why some *cough*lazy*cough people would prefer for the whole world to get straight up honest overnight so they don't have to think for themselves and ask questions and they can sleep walk through life.

When you find the honest place within, that you can trust, it doesn't matter who else isn't being honest. You "know".

Spend time reading through what "some" think is rubbish and you can pick up gems to help you develop the insight to lie detect, and smell out foul fish pretty easily anyway. Being able to see the big picture (expanding awareness) is one of the greatest tools for doing that.

If you keep tight focus on the great ass walking by, or the shameful guy wearing the politically incorrect shirt on the corner,  you'll miss the guy picking your back pocket.

It doesn't matter much to me because in the end, I will decide for myself what is fact or fiction to me. I certainly don't want some book publisher doing it for me. If anyone else needs or wants them too, then fine. Like I told Kotik, have at them ad start suing for fraud! :cool:

Thank you very much for your time Mr. Occubano.  :smile:

:japsmile:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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InvisibleLakefingers

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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: kotik]
    #5646903 - 05/18/06 06:08 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

....

Quote:


Quote:

Science is methodologically incapable of understanding what motivates and enables its ability to produce facts and is therefore blind to its own foundationalist worldview.




now this i can debate. Philosophy is a precursor to science in many ways. The "problem" (for lack of a better word at 8am) with philosophy is that the entire process takes place within the minds, ears and mouths of people, coming upon "findings" and even "solutions" all through mental process. Philosophy is always in theory, it does not always apply in the same way science does, regardless of culture, environment or etc. Science is simply the ability to take a philisophical idea, and put it into physical terms; being able to test the theory and turn it into something that can be observed by anyone.





The same applies to science.

In addition, I could try to disprove what you're saying, but whether it is true or not is not relevant. Your statement about what science is has no bearing upon my statement about science as an activity / the conception of facts.

Quote:


Quote:

Science presupposes an entire rationalism (a presupposition of the justification of *fact*, or the cult of fact) which leads one exponentially farther away from the truth the more one readily one believes that the methods of science reveal some essential truth (i.e. something beyond the factual).




this is an personal problem, not a problem with science. When you say it "leads one away," you are really saying "those who don't understand get confused." It's somewhat obvious, and should not be associated with science, while at the same time you must recognize that you cannot really dismiss anyone from being a philosopher.. because again, its physical theory vs metaphysical theory in many situations. To those who do understand real science, it is not something that provides "facts." If anything, it simply reveals what is most unlikely in a given situation, provided you also know what factors are in play.





Please tell me what you mean with "personal problem".

What is my "problem" is this: that this is a valid philosophical critic of science. It is a critique of science as Science, and science on the level of fact (science within Science). It's quite a textbook critique and is hardly contested anymore by even reflective scientists.

What you say I am saying is not what I am saying, what I am saying is what I said above. You're confusing though, the difference between the conception and practices of science with the theories, methodologies and ideals of Science. See my discussion with Ammon (sp?) about this about one month ago. I've had other discussions about this on the Shroomery too.

As a tangent (my personal opinion, but also backed up by facts, norms, and well-conceived arguments): it is not a matter of empirism vs. metaphysical theories. This is, what Rorty might call, a dualistic and epistemological way of viewing thought, philosophy, the history of philosophy, etc. I think it is unwise and untrue to reduce the field to these terms. Would you say that phenomenology, hermeneutics, egoism, ______, is metaphysical theory?

What is "real science"?

Quote:


Quote:

any narcissist can say something nice about himself/herself, but no narcissist can speak about himself/herself free from their narcissism




maybe its just early, but i have no idea what you are talking about.





This can be seen as either a beat-around-the-bush, or a very clear, illustration of what I said in the previous paragraph. Perhaps you not understanding this is why you fail to understand my discussion on the level of science as conception and not science as idealized practice.

Once again, I said: Any narcissist can say something nice about himself/herself, but no narcissist can speak about himself/herself free from their narcissism. What I mean to show is that anyone with a certain disposition can easily confirm the use of that disposition, since they are working from within the view of that disposition, but no one with a certain disposition can utterly transcend that disposition. Let's rephrase it: Any scientist can say something about the practice of science and the usefulness of facts, but no science practicing science can at the same time (perhaps never) question the foundations of what enables them to implement the usefulness of science in any instance (especially this one).


Quote:


this all really reflects the topic of this thread. To me, fiction vs non-fiction DOES matter. If you spend your entire life reading and fantasizing about unicorns and making wishes and etc. I would argue that after 30-40 years of that mentality, you will in fact, be less reasonable when interacting with an "average" person. Again, lack of a better word.. think average in the context of a bell curve).

I'll also add here that those who have no imagination at all, are also at fault in some ways, because they may also fall into a mindset where certain things just aren't possible, when scientific theories can be incomplete most of the time. I actually see many connections between philosophy and scientific theory, in fact they use the same mental processes, regardless of the intended result. It's only the application and intention of ideas that set the two apart.




Fiction and non-fiction matters for those it matters for. If they disappeared it would no longer matter. It matters for me too, but not as a means of proving something ontologically, but rather it is an instrumental difference and I do not take it as something REAL.

Those unicorns and wish-making(s) are in contrast to a reality. I do not think it's possible to read fiction without being rooted in an understanding of what is non-fiction. They precule, include and exclude one another. Without fiction, non-fiction would not be fully intelligible and therefore there would be no disastrous detriment on one's mind as you propose there would be. But as you say "you will in fact, be less reasonable..." -- and that's what this is all about for you: facts, but facts are a very small matter. Let's leave that for science within its own realm.

Should the average person dictate the norms of all thinking?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5649533 - 05/19/06 11:43 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Of course, everybody has to think for himself, but to say, there is so much BS that it doesn't matter anymore, I can't see as beautiful.
I take honest people just more serious, while I let dishonest ones babble around and give them no credit.
Intentional lies are one of the worst things to me and a way to loose every respect in my eye.
There I am quite simple :wink:
Occubano ?


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5650435 - 05/19/06 04:05 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Blue,

Then maybe you have yet to realize the beauty in non matter. :shrug:

Haven't you ever been faced with something and felt torn, because a mental principle told you one thing and your heart told you something else about it? And didn't you ever decide to say, that mental principle of what is right doesn't matter, when this something in your heart feels so right, it supercedes the principle? Then you went with your heart and were set free from being pulled and torn apart?

This is how determining truth best works for me and how it sets me free. When ever I side with the principle of material rights, I end up in the ugly shitz of life. In those moments I let go, I've known no greater beauty because its the same essense of unconditional love, where the non matter resides within me.

Principles lead to making objective judgments about, what is right or wrong, good  or bad, true or false, and that leads to separating things from one another, condemnation and that leads to conflict.

Sometimes, it's like taking home from the pound the dog no body else wants  wants because he's flawed. He's a little champ to you. And one day, he saves your life. You "knew".

The whole world can be one giant lie, one giant flaw and I can let that not matter to me, any time I choose to. And when I do, I am loving life, loving people, flying high and feeling free when I am in that "place" within me, where the non matter dwells.

Something beautiful happened for me last night along these lines. Someone was spewing shit related to something that has held me down in the muck of duality conflict for thousands of years. I had these principles about "fairness", showing respect for other peoples creations, and taking pride in things done well.

They have lead me time and time again to take very defensive action, protecting those principles, all the while, they keep shoving me further into the mud and ugliness of conflict.

How can something like holding principles of fairness, respect for other peoples things, and pride in something done well, be something so ugly? It sounds good, and like good ones to live with, that should lead to goodness and yet, they haven't.

Protecting things of importance in matter? Not beautiful to me blue. War is never beautiful. Some times fun, but not beautiful. :shake: Whoever said war was a neccesary evil is full of shit.

Let the things of matter go if someone else needs them that badly, if you want the truth to set you free.  There is no freedom for the self or soul, when one is bound in war over principles of matter.

Anyway, I was able to do that over a biggie last night. I almost went to get defensive against someone, over something I have been at war with for thousands of years. I finally let go of it. They can have it. It doesn't matter to me anymore.

And in letting go of the matter of it, I finally "got the essense of it back." :lol: I'm free to enjoy it now, because it was never in the material things I placed importance on, over "principles". It was in me all along and no one can ever take that away.  I don't know how I missed that simple truth all this time related to that event, the truth that would set me free of something that has held me captive for life times in density and conflict here.

You asked me in the revelations post about manna,  how I could see that we can die and be born into new life while still being alive. The proverbial demons within that suck the life blood from us can die, when we stop feeding them. More manna to bring us back to experiencing life with. :yesnod:

That's the ticket.  :smile:

(thats an SNL catch phrase and so is "Thank you Mr. Occubano", I think)

My view on all of this comes from personal experience. It doesn't mean it is right. It just means, it's what is right for me about the subject. :wink:

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650445 - 05/19/06 04:07 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Sometimes, it's like taking home from the pound the dog no body else wants wants because he's flawed. He's a little champ to you. And one day, he saves your life. You "knew".





My best bud adopted a near-feral cat. The cat pissed on (and ruined) his $5000 leather sofa.


--------------------
I'm Sporetacus!


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650448 - 05/19/06 04:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

That sofa might have killed him. That cat most likely saved his life. :thumbup:


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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OfflineSporetacus
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Icelander]
    #5650453 - 05/19/06 04:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Hmmmm....  :confused:


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I'm Sporetacus!


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650529 - 05/19/06 04:36 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I have no problem with 'no matter' and even can see its beauty, while I can see it in 'matter' as well.


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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Invisiblegettinjiggywithit
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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: Sporetacus]
    #5650536 - 05/19/06 04:37 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Well then, your friends story would not "be at all like" the one I described for blue to have a different sort of experience to relate what i was saying too.

Your friends story would describe what attachment suffering is like. If your friends $5,000 sofa matters so much to him, he shouldn't allow any living thing in the room. What if a 3 year old colored on it with permanent marker? What's he going to do if there is a bad storm and the roof leeks on it and ruins it? :hissyfit: :bitch:

If he handled it with any remorse for taking the cat in, he can't afford to be buying $5,000 couches. 

Do you think the cat even knows what the value of $5,000 baubles mean to some people? Cats don't understand materilistic values. Litter, leather, it's all a place to pee when you're a cat and you gotta go.

Had your friend been honest with himself and knew what meant more to him, nurturing a life unconditionally, or taking pride in a $5,000 sofa, he would have made a decision not to bring the cat home or experienced a response to the event, that would have freed him from experiencing any sense of loss that really mattered in the big scheme of things. 

Blame the Cat! Take no responsibility for his role in what happened. Classic swami! 

:peace: :heart:


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Ahuwale ka nane huna.


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5650574 - 05/19/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

BlueCoyote said:
I have no problem with 'no matter' and even can see its beauty, while I can see it in 'matter' as well.




You once said that placing appreciation "value" on material things "matter" is the downfall of humankind and what has lead to the worlds greed, conflict, poverty and suffering.

If you can see the beauty in non matter, then, why is it so hard for you to see the beauty in people saying, "Fact or fiction? It doesn't matter if I can learn something from it." ?

:peace: :heart:


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Re: Fiction or non-fiction - it doesn't matter [Re: gettinjiggywithit]
    #5650602 - 05/19/06 05:09 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

You once said that placing appreciation "value" on material things "matter" is the downfall of humankind and what has lead to the worlds greed, conflict, poverty and suffering.




Hehe, wow, really ? I must have been angry.
I see some problems, evaluating matter too much, but intended lie is almost as ungood as this :wink:

So why does this all matter to me ? I strongly dislike confabulated stories to fool people. I fully can understand the metaphorical meanings behind the stories, but they may not presented as true, as they never happened that way, if.
It even blinds ones own metaphoric interpretation if one literally sees Jesus walking over the sea. It robs fantasy, it robs spirit, it robs faith if it is presented literally and meant metaphorically..


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Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


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