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Invisiblezorbman
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Phred]
    #5640712 - 05/17/06 03:52 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I am not going to argue this point-by-point cause it's a bit silly. Most people who believe in this particular conspiracy also seem particularly immune to reason I've noticed.

Anyway, one question that I've heard over and over is, "How could a plane go through all those reinforced walls?" Answer: Because it was going really fucking fast, okay? How hard is that to understand? No one ever has any facts to suggest why that would not be possible either I've noticed. They just keep repeating the question over and over in a chorus as if repetition somehow makes it a valid question.

Something traveling very fast can function as a projectile and pierce materials you would normally think of as immune. Tornadoes and hurricanes, for example, have been known to routinely drive relatively lightweight objects through trees and walls. Here are a few examples:


Palm tree pierced by plywood missle. Hurricane Andrew.


2" x 4" wood stud launched at 100 mph pierces unreinforced masonry wall, at WERC, Texas Tech University.


Tornado. Canada.

Also somewhere exists a photo I've seen, but was unable to find of a straw driven through a wooden post by a tornado! So I don't find it odd at all that a metal plane traveling fast could do that even to a reinforced structure like the Pentagon.


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“The crisis takes a much longer time coming than you think, and then it happens much faster than you would have thought.”  -- Rudiger Dornbusch


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OfflineSeussA
Error: divide byzero

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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: zorbman]
    #5640910 - 05/17/06 07:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

> Because it was going really fucking fast, okay? How hard is that to understand?

*laugh* Oh, I know how you feel. Don't forget that planes are designed to be light and fly, not to hold together when they slam into one of the strongest buildings in the world at over half the speed of sound.

Here is the video: http://www.judicialwatch.org/flight77.shtml

I will have to wait until I get home to play with it, but on the bottom video on the frame right before the fireball, you can see something near the right edge of the frame. I'm not sure if it is anything yet or not... matlab, here I come!


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Just another spore in the wind.


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Offlinebeatnicknick
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Seuss]
    #5641289 - 05/17/06 11:37 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Phred do you get a paycheck in the mail from an anonymous man in washington every first of the month?


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I don't think for myself. I think as though I'm explaining my thoughts to someone else. I'm concerned only for those listening.


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: beatnicknick]
    #5642141 - 05/17/06 04:51 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Black Boxes Located in Pentagon Rubble
By Leef Smith
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 14, 2001; 9:21 AM

Both the black boxes from American Airlines Flight 77 that crashed into the Pentagon on Tuesday were recovered early this morning, Arlington assistant county manager Dick Bridges said today.

Members of the FBI Evidence Response Team found both black boxes - data and voice recorders - at 3:40 a.m. today. "It's a step forward in the investigation ... it's a step forward for America," Bridges said.

He described the data box as "charred" and the voice recorder as "bad." He said the boxes were found where investigators had expected they would be but wasn't more specific.

"It wasn't any real secret where we were expected to find the boxes. It was just a matter of getting to them," he said.

He said earlier reports that there had been a signal from one of the Pentagon boxes were false.

"This is a step forward, as opposed to stasis," Bridges said. "It's a significant development, and we're moving ahead."

On the workers who found the boxes said he was pleased to have found the data recorder, "but by the same token, I'd much rather find someone alive."

Bridges also said the fire from Thursday night was under control but workers expected nuisance fires to continue to flare up.

"The wind is a concern because of spot fires. We never declared the fire to be extinguished - just under control."


http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn...ep14¬Found=true


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Luddite]
    #5642149 - 05/17/06 04:52 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

November 30, 2001
Forensic feat IDs nearly all Pentagon victims
by Christopher C. Kelly
Armed Forces Institute of Pathology
What some experts have called "the most comprehensive forensic investigation in U.S. history" ended Nov. 16 with the identification of 184 of the 189 who died in the terrorist attack on the Pentagon.
A multidisciplinary team of more than 50 forensic specialists, scientists, and support personnel from the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology, with headquarters at Walter Reed, played a major role in Operation Noble Eagle investigations, officials said.
Many of the casualties were badly burned and difficult to identify, an official said. Of the 189 killed, 125 worked at the Pentagon and 64 were passengers on American Airlines Flight 77. Only one of those who died made it to the hospital. The rest were killed on site, and for some, only pieces of tissue could be found.
AFIP's team of forensic pathologists, odontologists, a forensic anthropologist, DNA experts, investigators, and support personnel worked for over two weeks in the mortuary at Dover Air Force Base, Del., and for weeks at the DNA lab in Rockville, to identify the victims of the attack.
"Our staff represented every branch of the service," said AFIP Director Navy Capt. Glenn N. Wagner. "We also received tremendous support from the doctors, nurses, and technicians stationed at Dover who participated in the investigation."
The investigation mobilized AFIP assets in many ways. In the hours following the crash Sept. 11, the acting armed forces medical examiner, Air Force Col. AbuBakr Marzouk, worked with FBI and local Virginia law enforcement officials to create a plan for recovering and identifying the victims.
At the same time, personnel from the Office of the Armed Forces Medical Examiner positioned and staged equipment to begin operations at Dover. Air Force Maj. Bruce Ensign served as AFIP's team leader at the site.
"We immediately called in regional medical examiners from as far away as San Diego to participate," Ensign said. A total of 12 forensic pathologists, assisted by two AFIP staff pathologists, headed the investigation team. Also arriving at Dover during those early critical hours were two other key AFIP groups: forensic scientists from OAFME's Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory and oral pathologists from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology.
AFDIL scientists ensured data systems and records were available to make DNA identifications, while the oral pathology group created a triage area to conduct positive dental identifications. Contacts were also made with family services in each branch of the military to obtain ante-mortem information and reference material. Mortuary operations were fully underway by the evening of Sept. 13. AFIP used a well-defined and tested system for conducting the identifications of the Pentagon victims. When remains arrived at the morgue, a scanning device searched for the presence of unexploded ordnance or metallic foreign bodies. A computerized tracking system assigned numbers to each victim for efficient tracking.
FBI experts collected trace evidence to search for chemicals from explosive devices and conducted fingerprint identifications. Forensic dentistry experts from the Department of Oral and Maxillofacial Pathology performed dental charting and comparison with ante-mortem dental records. Full-body radiographs followed to document skeletal fractures and assist in the identification process, followed by autopsy inspection.
At autopsy, forensic pathologists determined the cause and manner of death, aided by forensic anthropologist Dr. William C. Rodriguez in determining the race, sex, and stature of victims. A board-certified epidemiologist managed the tracking system for data collected during the autopsy process, and tissue samples were collected for DNA identification and further toxicology studies. Forensic photographers, essential to any forensic investigation, documented injuries and personal effects. Mortuary specialists then embalmed, dressed, and casketed remains prior to release to next-of-kin.
For eight days a full complement of AFIP forensic specialists worked 12-hour shifts to complete the operation.
"This is the largest mass fatality we've dealt with in recent years," Ensign said. "We have modalities today that we didn't have before. Our investigation was much more technology-intensive." Ensign noted the entire team worked well together. "Because of the combined effort of all three services and the FBI, we were very pleased with the speed of the identification process. Essential records and references were submitted to us in a timely way."
Logistical help from AFIP also played an important role. "We had tremendous logistical issues obtaining equipment, especially with additional demands in New York City and Somerset County, Pa.," he said. "Fortunately our logistical support was terrific in helping us get material in." The Dover mortuary sent specimens back to the Armed Forces DNA Identification Laboratory in Rockville.
Teams of forensic scientists, under the direction of Demris Lee, technical leader of the Nuclear DNA Section, took over the difficult chore of generating a DNA profile of the victims. Their work included not only the Pentagon crash victims, but the victims of the Somerset County crash as well. Every one of the organization's 102 DNA analysts, sample processors, logistics staff, and administrative personnel were involved -- from collecting, tracking, analyzing DNA samples, and gathering and logging DNA reference material to preparing DNA reports. For 18 days following the terrorist attacks, AFDIL employees worked on 12-hour shifts, seven days a week to meet the mission requirements.


http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_48/national_news/12279-1.html


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InvisibleLuddite
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Registered: 03/23/06
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Luddite]
    #5642153 - 05/17/06 04:54 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Some Eyewitness Accounts

Flight 77 Crash at the Pentagon, Sept. 11, 2001


"On a Metro train to National Airport, Allen Cleveland looked out the window to see a jet heading down toward the Pentagon. 'I thought, "There's no landing strip on that side of the subway tracks,"' he said. Before he could process that thought, he saw 'a huge mushroom cloud. The lady next to me was in absolute hysterics.'"
- "Our Plane Is Being Hijacked." Washington Post, 12 Sep 2001


"I was supposed to have been going to the Pentagon Tuesday morning at about 11:00am (EDT) and was getting ready, and thank goodness I wasn't going to be going until later. It was so shocking, I was listening to the news on what had happened in New York, and just happened to look out the window because I heard a low flying plane and then I saw it hit the Pentagon. It happened so fast... it was in the air one moment and in the building the next..."
- "U.S. Under Attack: Your Eyewitness Accounts." BBC News, 14 Sep 2001


"As I approached the Pentagon, which was still not quite in view, listening on the radio to the first reports about the World Trade Center disaster in New York, a jetliner, apparently at full throttle and not more than a couple of hundred yards above the ground, screamed overhead. ... Seconds before the Pentagon came into view a huge black cloud of smoke rose above the road ahead. I came around the bend and there was the Pentagon billowing smoke, flames and debris, blackened on one side and with a gaping hole where the airplane had hit it."
- "Eyewitness at the Pentagon." Human Events, 17 Sep 2001


"Frank Probst, an information management specialist for the Pentagon Renovation Program, left his office trailer near the Pentagon's south parking lot at 9:36 a.m. Sept. 11. Walking north beside Route 27, he suddenly saw a commercial airliner crest the hilltop Navy Annex. American Airlines Flight 77 reached him so fast and flew so low that Probst dropped to the ground, fearing he'd lose his head to its right engine."
- "A Defiant Recovery." The Retired Officer Magazine, January 2002


"USAToday.com Editor Joel Sucherman saw it all: an American Airlines jetliner fly left to right across his field of vision as he commuted to work Tuesday morning. It was highly unusual. The large plane was 20 feet off the ground and a mere 50 to 75 yards from his windshield. Two seconds later and before he could see if the landing gear was down or any of the horror-struck faces inside, the plane slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon 100 yards away. 'My first thought was he's not going to make it across the river to [Reagan] National Airport. But whoever was flying the plane made no attempt to change direction,' Sucherman said. 'It was coming in at a high rate of speed, but not at a steep angle—almost like a heat-seeking missile was locked onto its target and staying dead on course.'"
- "Journalist Witnesses Pentagon Crash." eWeek.com, 13 Sep 2001


"'I mean it was like a cruise missile with wings, went right there and slammed into the Pentagon,' eyewitness Mike Walter said of the plane that hit the military complex. 'Huge explosion, great ball of fire, smoke started billowing out, and then it was just chaos on the highway as people either tried to move around the traffic and go down either forward or backwards,' he said."
- "Witnesses and Leaders on Terrorist Attacks." CNN, 11 Sep 2001


"'(The plane) was flying fast and low and the Pentagon was the obvious target,' said Fred Gaskins, who was driving to his job as a national editor at USA Today near the Pentagon when the plane passed about 150 feet overhead. 'It was flying very smoothly and calmly, without any hint that anything was wrong.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001


"Aydan Kizildrgli, an English language student who is a native of Turkey, saw the jetliner bank slightly then strike a western wall of the huge five-sided building that is the headquarters of the nation's military. 'There was a big boom,' he said. 'Everybody was in shock. I turned around to the car behind me and yelled "Did you see that?" Nobody could believe it.'"
- "Bush Vows Retaliation for 'Evil Acts'." USA Today, 11 Sep 2001


"'I saw the tail of a large airliner. ... It plowed right into the Pentagon," said an Associated Press Radio reporter who witnessed the crash. 'There is billowing black smoke.'"
- "America's Morning of Terror." ChannelOne.com, 2001


"Omar Campo, a Salvadorean, was cutting the grass on the other side of the road when the plane flew over his head. 'It was a passenger plane. I think an American Airways plane,' Mr Campo said. 'I was cutting the grass and it came in screaming over my head. I felt the impact. The whole ground shook and the whole area was full of fire. I could never imagine I would see anything like that here.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001


"Afework Hagos, a computer programmer, was on his way to work but stuck in a traffic jam near the Pentagon when the plane flew over. 'There was a huge screaming noise and I got out of the car as the plane came over. Everybody was running away in different directions. It was tilting its wings up and down like it was trying to balance. It hit some lampposts on the way in.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001


"A pilot who saw the impact, Tim Timmerman, said it had been an American Airways 757. "'It added power on its way in,' he said. 'The nose hit, and the wings came forward and it went up in a fireball.'"
- "Pentagon Eyewitness Accounts." The Guardian, 12 Sep 2001


"Steve Eiden, a truck driver, had picked up his cargo that Tuesday morning in Williamsburg, Va., and was en route to New York City and witnessed the aftermath. ... He took the Highway 95 loop in the area of the Pentagon and thought it odd to see a plane in restricted airspace, thinking to himself it was odd that it was flying so low. 'You could almost see the people in the windows,' he said as he watched the plane disappear behind a line of trees, followed by a tall plume of black smoke. Then he saw the Pentagon on fire, and an announcement came over the radio that the Pentagon had been hit."
- "Sept. 11, the Day America Changed." The Baxter Bulletin, 2001


"Traffic is normally slow right around the Pentagon as the road winds and we line up to cross the 14th Street bridge heading into the District of Columbia. I don’t know what made me look up, but I did and I saw a very low-flying American Airlines plane that seemed to be accelerating. My first thought was just 'No, no, no, no,' because it was obvious the plane was not heading to nearby Reagan National Airport. It was going to crash."
- "September 11 Remembered." University Week, 4 Oct 2001


"Father Stephen McGraw was driving to a graveside service at Arlington National Cemetery the morning of Sept. 11, when he mistakenly took the Pentagon exit onto Washington Boulevard, putting him in a position to witness American Airlines Flight 77 crash into the Pentagon. 'I was in the left hand lane with my windows closed. I did not hear anything at all until the plane was just right above our cars.' McGraw estimates that the plane passed about 20 feet over his car, as he waited in the left hand lane of the road, on the side closest to the Pentagon. 'The plane clipped the top of a light pole just before it got to us, injuring a taxi driver, whose taxi was just a few feet away from my car. I saw it crash into the building,' he said. 'My only memories really were that it looked like a plane coming in for a landing. I mean in the sense that it was controlled and sort of straight. That was my impression,' he said. 'There was an explosion and a loud noise and I felt the impact. I remember seeing a fireball come out of two windows (of the Pentagon). I saw an explosion of fire billowing through those two windows.'"
- "Pentagon Crash Eyewitness Comforted Victims." MDW News Service, 28 Sep 2001


"'I glanced up just at the point where the plane was going into the building,' said Carla Thompson, who works in an Arlington, Va., office building about 1,000 yards from the crash. 'I saw an indentation in the building and then it was just blown-up up—red, everything red,' she said. 'Everybody was just starting to go crazy. I was petrified.'"
- "Terrorists Attack New York, Pentagon." Los Angeles Times, 12 Sep 2001


"I witnessed the jet hit the Pentagon on September 11. From my office on the 19th floor of the USA TODAY building in Arlington, Va., I have a view of Arlington Cemetery, Crystal City, the Pentagon, National Airport and the Potomac River. ... Shortly after watching the second tragedy, I heard jet engines pass our building, which, being so close to the airport is very common. But I thought the airport was closed. I figured it was a plane coming in for landing. A few moments later, as I was looking down at my desk, the plane caught my eye. It didn't register at first. I thought to myself that I couldn't believe the pilot was flying so low. Then it dawned on me what was about to happen. I watched in horror as the plane flew at treetop level, banked slightly to the left, drug it's wing along the ground and slammed into the west wall of the Pentagon exploding into a giant orange fireball. Then black smoke. Then white smoke."
- Steve Anderson, Director of Communications, USA Today


"Henry Ticknor, intern minister at the Unitarian Universalist Church of Arlington, Virginia, was driving to church that Tuesday morning when American Airlines Flight 77 came in fast and low over his car and struck the Pentagon. 'There was a puff of white smoke and then a huge billowing black cloud,' he said."
- "Hell on Earth." UU World, Jan/Feb 2002


"Northern Virginia resident John O'Keefe was one of the commuters who witnessed the attack on the Pentagon. 'I was going up 395, up Washington Blvd., listening to the the news, to WTOP, and from my left side-I don't know whether I saw or heard it first- I saw a silver plane I immediately recognized it as an American Airlines jet,' said the 25-year-old O'Keefe, managing editor of Influence, an American Lawyer Media publication about lobbying. 'It came swooping in over the highway, over my left shoulder, straight across where my car was heading. I'd just heard them saying on the radio that National Airport was closing, and I thought, "That's not going to make it to National Airport." And then I realized where I was, and that it was going to hit the Pentagon. There was a burst of orange flame that shot out that I could see through the highway overpass. Then it was just black. Just black, thick smoke.'"
- "Terrorist 'Situation'." American Lawyer Media, 11 Sep 2001

http://www.dcmilitary.com/army/stripe/6_48/national_news/12279-1.html


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InvisibleLuddite
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Luddite]
    #5642166 - 05/17/06 04:57 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)



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Offlinemikeownow
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Luddite]
    #5642200 - 05/17/06 05:10 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

If it was going that fast and that low, can someone tell me how the telephone poles were not effected? And also did any cars crash on the highway from the wind turbulence?

And why not just release the other fing videos to us if there is nothing at all to hide?


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No statements made in any post or message by myself should be construed to mean that I am now, or have ever been, participating in or considering participation in any activities in violation of any local, state, or federal laws. All posts are works of fiction.


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Offlineexclusive58
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #5645225 - 05/18/06 07:09 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

on both videos there's only one frame where you can actually see something, a really small part of the front of whatever the aircraft was.

so there's only two frames, from two different cameras, that have been released, and somehow these two frames show exactly the same thing. whatever...

if they released this because of the freedom of information act, why don't they release the other videos that the fbi have seized right after the crash?


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Offlined33p
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: mikeownow]
    #5645972 - 05/18/06 01:44 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

mikeownow said:
If it was going that fast and that low, can someone tell me how the telephone poles were not effected? And also did any cars crash on the highway from the wind turbulence?

And why not just release the other fing videos to us if there is nothing at all to hide?




10 seconds of searching on google and here is one picture



And those pics of weak objects piercing stronger ones were cool. When the abomb was dropped on hiroshima it launched blades of grass out of the ground which stuck into people's skin.

One eyewitness said, "I had never seen such a horrifying sight as those five shivering boys. Blood was pouring in streams from the deep cuts all over their bodies, mingling with their perspiration, and their skin was burned deep red, like the color of cooked lobsters. At first it seemed, strangely, that their burned and lacerated backs and chests were growing green grass! Then I saw that hundreds of blades of sharp grass had been driven into their flesh, evidently by the force of the blast."


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I'm a nihilist. Lets be friends.

bang bang


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: d33p]
    #5646914 - 05/18/06 06:11 PM (15 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007002.php#comm

"Our friend also showed us the direction that the plane took in hitting the Pentagon, from the window just below the entry point. It came in just over the Sheraton hotel in the background, clipping a light pole, bounced off the freeway, killing a cab driver, and hit just short of the Pentagon. This time sequence explains why the Pentagon took less damage than one might expect; the bounce took off some of the momentum and fuel before the plane hit the building, meaning that the impact did not travel as deeply and the fire did not burn as hot."

Apparently it went skipping into the Pentagon.


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OfflineAndy21
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5652202 - 05/20/06 04:12 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

If the wings and the majority of a metal plane were incinerated on impact how come enough gooey bits of human mush were still around to ID people? What does calling people 'tinfoil hat wearers' prove? Why wont they release a decent video of this plane hitting? Psychological warfare on your own people is nothing new, 10 minutes research on google scholar and you will find many past examples of it. It would be easier to believe these 'facts' that you cling to if this administration did not spend so much time evading simple questions. A conspiracy theory to me is something where people just simply put 2 and 2 together and make eight, like the Da Vinci Code or that aliens made the pyramids. This is something else entirely, this is people having reasonable doubts about an event. Some forces have clearly worked to hide things, you have to ask why would they do this? If they released a decent tape this discussion would end today. Can you actually watch those 4 frames of video and see anything that looks large enough to fit with the official story?


Edited by Andy21 (05/20/06 04:15 AM)


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Offlinezappaisgod
horrid asshole

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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: Andy21]
    #5652532 - 05/20/06 09:48 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

As far as I can tell, the video is worthless. Which has nothing to do with the fact that lunatics who cling to the notion that it was a government missile or alien spacecraft are idiots who wear tinfoil hats.


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OfflineAndy21
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Re: So now that the Justice Dept is going to release the Pentagon video [Re: zappaisgod]
    #5652723 - 05/20/06 11:30 AM (15 years, 6 months ago)

I do not know what happened on that day, I am not saying that the government did it, how can any of us possibly know what happened beyond conjecture? I am saying that the government has gone out of it's way to conceal the evidence of what did happen. It has used the attacks as an excuse to put draconian illiberal legislation on the books and in my own country it has made biometric ID cards a legal requirement. The company that will manufacture the biometric ID cards will be the Carlisle group, with whom our beloved Prime Minister will no doubt begin consulting work for once we finally kick him out of office. Most importantly of all thousands more innocent people than were killed on September the 11th have now been killed in Afghanistan and Iraq, in Afghanistan we control like one city and a road. I guess It's just easier to accept the deaths of brown people because our culture views them as less than ourselves.
The true lunatics are those who view this behaviour as civilized.


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