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InvisibleVeritas
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Registered: 04/15/05
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Consciousness
    #5629498 - 05/14/06 06:28 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

What is/are the defining characteristic(s) of being conscious?

We say that humans are conscious, and distinguish this variety of consciousness from that of "lesser" animals. Some would say that animals are not conscious, but mere instinctual twitches, the knee-jerk reactions of evolutionary traits.

How do we really know that our consciousness differs?

The dictionary says:

Quote:

1 a : the quality or state of being aware, especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact

2 : the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought.




With the exception of "within oneself," which animals cannot comumunicate to us, this definition does describe the apparent consciousness of other animals.

As to the consciousness, or absence thereof, of plants...we can accurately describe them as lacking the equipment which we use to express our consciousness, but can we truly ascertain the nature of their existence?

Certainly the evidence seems to point toward a lack of consciousness, as we understand it, in geraniums and toadstools. Does this mean that no variety of consciousness is present?


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5629534 - 05/14/06 06:39 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Depends on your belief system. Or if you have actually made some conscious contact with a plant or a stone. It may come down to types or degrees of consciousness.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5629537 - 05/14/06 06:40 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Being aware of ones environment (internal and external), in the sense of being able to perceive it, is what, according to MushmanTheManic, constitutes consciousness. A tree is able to respond to it's environment; it's leaves can follow the sun and it's roots can grow around obstacles. While the tree responds to its environment in mechanistic way, a human's nervous system seems to create an mental "map" of what is going on "out there" and responds to that. Humans and other animals can also choose different ways to respond to their environment.


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5629543 - 05/14/06 06:42 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not really sure if consciousness can be described using the affirmative, but if I had to try, I would say it is that which is aware of the functioning of all six senses.

The most basic and ultimate awareness. By this definition, I would say anything that is alive has awareness. Whether or not plants are conscious, I have no idea, but I suspect fungi and perhaps at least select other entheogens may be.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5629545 - 05/14/06 06:43 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

plants, i believe, to be more conscious than us in a very different way, they are conscious of their group consciousness nature, where as animals (ie. humans) are almost soley aware of their singularily group consciousness (the body they exist in) and they forget of the whole

if you ever get into astral projection, you might go exploring in space and most likely will see how everything is part of everything else (universal consciousness) and plants are included in this (fungi, cacti, and about every other type of plant) are used as tools of this universal consciousness (or plant consciousness im not sure what to call it i have seen both, but i think they are both the same thing, one is aware of itself and independent of everything and the other encooumpases everything that exists)

i believe (through this plant consciousness... which is a group consciousness, or a spirit [imagine ifyou will the salvia goddess as our caretaker in this scenario] that has been aware of its non-physical nature since the dawn of time and has affected life on this planet for aeons) that this plant consciousness is like a teacher for us, if we so choose to embibe in the fruits of its labour

but while it is a teacher, it is also a destroyer (poisinous plants)

but, i think also that even innanimate objects have consciousness, watch in your daily life for this, you might come to find that whenever you interact with an innanimate object, you do it the same way each and every time, this is most likely due to basically a video being played, you say man i want to drink some water, then you pick up the glass and drink, and as long as you are not paying attention, the universe can sneak the same calculation right under your nose (literally) without it looking fake, or without you getting that sense of deja vu.

and there you have my take on consciousness

it could get more detailed, breaking each and every different molecule/atom into their own group consciousness all of which interact with each other, this of course is for simplicity's sake so that everything can be recorded on the non physical plane (which it is if i remember correctly) at least everything for this dimension, because that is the highest frequency level of existence

anyway, i could go into greater detail about the non physical if you would like just pm

ne way
-peace


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Consciousness [Re: dblaney]
    #5629562 - 05/14/06 06:47 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Whether or not plants are conscious, I have no idea, but I suspect fungi and perhaps at least select other entheogens may be.




Do you suspect this because of your experiences with them, or because of your observances of them? How do you know whether your experiences were expanded consciousness of yourself, or contact with another consciousness?


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Consciousness [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5629587 - 05/14/06 06:52 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, humans and animals may choose different ways of responding to their environment--but they will not survive if those choices deny basic "mechanistic" needs. In our own way, we may be just as mechanized as the tree turning towards the sun.

What of the potential inner life of plants? Would you be able to discern my inner life as you watched me shopping for food, brushing my teeth, or any of the habitual things humans do every day?


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Invisibledblaney
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5629610 - 05/14/06 07:00 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I really don't know for certain. And I doubt if it's possible to know for certain. But I suspect it because of the experiences of myself and others with them.

From my experience, it is exceedingly rare to find something that has such a profound effect on consciousness without itself being consciousness.

But this is, of course, all speculation. I try not to indulge in speculation, so I will cut it short here.

Consciousness is Thus.


--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"

"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer

Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.

"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln


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OfflineTheGus
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Re: Consciousness [Re: dblaney]
    #5629629 - 05/14/06 07:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

or everything could just be a computer program.. including you and i and all of reality

thats kindof a weird thought, that we are just robots, or are we the energy controling the robots, or is consciousness independent of energy?

i think the last one is the most viable

but im not god so i duno, i just speculate alot


--------------------
"It is easier to teach a computer to play chess than to build a mudpie."Sherry Turkle Life on the Screen: Identity in the Age of the Internet
"Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts"-Einstein
:mrt: I pity the fool who break traffic laws with $870,000 of drugs in the car.      -mo0nlite_sonata
Psythos


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5629643 - 05/14/06 07:10 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, we are dependant on energy just as much as trees, but I think being able to decide is important. The human organism can examine its situation and take various paths of action. These choices may be ultimately determined, but they still seem to be choices, regardless. A leaf has no choice to follow the sun, no other options, it does so because of automatic biological processes.

What of the potential inner life of plants?

Plants and fungi do not have any of the traditional cells associated with a nervous system, which, as a naturalist, leads me to doubt any plant- or fungus-consciousness. Nor do they appear to exhibit any of the characteristics of a conscious organism

Would you be able to discern my inner life as you watched me shopping for food, brushing my teeth, or any of the habitual things humans do every day?

No, doing so would be mere speculation, but I could probably discern whether you were conscious or not.


Edited by MushmanTheManic (05/14/06 07:12 PM)


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5629683 - 05/14/06 07:20 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Unless, of course, you were hooked up to a neural interface so I could directly percieve your thoughts and experiences.


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Invisiblexurzax
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Re: Consciousness *DELETED* [Re: Veritas]
    #5629887 - 05/14/06 08:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Post deleted by xurzax

Reason for deletion: .


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Consciousness [Re: MushmanTheManic]
    #5629955 - 05/14/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

MushmanTheManic said:
Unless, of course, you were hooked up to a neural interface so I could directly percieve your thoughts and experiences.




Or if you performed a Vulcan Mind-meld.  :grin:


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InvisibleVeritas
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Re: Consciousness [Re: xurzax]
    #5629963 - 05/14/06 08:32 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

If language were the prerequisite, who would create the language?


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OfflineBlueCoyote
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5631953 - 05/15/06 10:37 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

One can think in pictures and emotions, too. Perhaps there are other ways ?
Consciousness, a very hard to define concept, first regarded to humans, not to all (ancient and recent racism), used in the last 50 years to discern humans from animals and now we begin to learn that animals have something very similar to 'our' 'consciousness'. Even the concept of human speech isn't exclusive to humans anymore, as an ape learned the sign-language quite well and was able to spontaneously communicate with their keepers, also this ape gave this language to her child. Also there are unknown ways of communication in the animal and plant world.
So, where to put a base for consciousness ? I see it in managing and manipulation of informations. That is very broad concept too and it includes the concepts of memory which includes raw matter, as well.
As we see managing and manipulation of information appears in different forms. The fastest and complexest form is that of the nervous systems, based on electro-chemical processes, with the 'so far' highlight, the neocortex, which allows a self reflection of the impulses, what gives a clear image of identity and self, but also the manipulation of information in the abstract, what often is seen absent, even in the higher forms of animals.
Animals are conscious but less self reflecting or abstract until to the smallest ones, insects or bacterias, which miss the complexity of nervous system to reflect those 'higher' functions.
Then we change the mode of 'system' if we change to the plants. They almost have no electro-chemical system. Their system is almost only bio-chemical, so the speed is much slower. The system itself is almost not researched at all, only some hormones ore activation-substances are known, because science can't make a connection to consciousness therein. For me, it is clear to find consciousness there, as far my definition longs.
Therefore I can see consciousness also in pure matter like rocks and stones. They have a strong memory, they only need a good translator and we never can understand how they perceive something, or how they perhaps 'act' (by forming from chemical processes inside of them), because it is so damned slow ... But, inside a mountain, there is much complexity, structure, movement from chemical processes,...
I could go on, but that only first to start for my comprehension of consciousness :smile:


--------------------
Though lovers be lost love shall not  And death shall have no dominion
......................................................
"Our scientific power has outrun our spiritual power. We have guided missiles and misguided men."Martin Luther King, Jr.
'Acceptance is the absolute key - at that moment you gain freedom and you gain power and you gain courage'


Edited by BlueCoyote (05/15/06 10:46 AM)


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Consciousness [Re: Veritas]
    #5632036 - 05/15/06 10:56 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I think consciousness is one or more wetspots that is aware that it(they) are wet and usually it/they want to stay wet.

I have often wondered it this applies to mucous, or if it only applies to mucous in certain crevices like the brain


--------------------
:confused: _ :brainfart:🧠  _ :finger:


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InvisibleMushmanTheManic
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Re: Consciousness [Re: BlueCoyote]
    #5633616 - 05/15/06 04:26 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

You'd make a good pet-rock salesman.  :laugh:


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