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OfflineYthanA
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Water Fuel - HHO Gas
    #5628372 - 05/14/06 01:05 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Very interesting, wish there were more details. No bitching about the wmv.

http://www.rratch.com/Misc/WaterFuel/WaterFuel.wmv


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InvisibledrSE
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5628499 - 05/14/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That is very impressive.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5628950 - 05/14/06 04:02 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The "HHO gas" is simply a mixture of hydrogen and oxygen in a 2:1 ratio. This is achieved naturally through electrolysis. It is misleading to say his engines run on hydrogen as electricity is needed to release the hydrogen from the water. It would be interesting to know more about his electrolysis method.


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Offlinebarfightlard
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5629076 - 05/14/06 04:29 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.shoutwire.com/viewstory/12433/Car_That_Runs_on_Tap_Water

This guy also had contracts with the military before he was poisoned....


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5629681 - 05/14/06 07:19 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The movie "Chain Reaction" was just on last night, I stayed up till 5am and watched it.

Good old hydrogen.


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Offlinemonamine
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5631074 - 05/15/06 01:28 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Isn't a lot of hydrogen and oxygen together a really good way to blow things up?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: monamine]
    #5631424 - 05/15/06 05:22 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> Isn't a lot of hydrogen and oxygen together a really good way to blow things up?

Hydrogen can be very dangerous, but then so can petrol. However, from the look of his system, it generates hydrogen/oxygen "on demand" rather than storing it. Upon an accident, there would not be very much free gas to do damage. Modern day storage systems for hydrogen gas are pretty safe. They use chemicals, such as titanium dioxide, to hold hydrogen like a sponge holds water. If there is an accident, the hydrogen is slowly released reducing the change of an explosion.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5633974 - 05/15/06 05:49 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

That was almost unwatchable on my comp.

I don't get it. So the car runs on water and a whole lot of electricity?

So this is a way to run an internal combustion engine off of electricity?


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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5635610 - 05/15/06 11:17 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Nobody gets it yet, except him. He's being tightlipped about how it works.

To be fair, people have performed scams along very similar lines as this man's inventions. I'd say it's not impossible that he's a hack. It's too early to know.


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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Seuss]
    #5635682 - 05/15/06 11:36 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Would it be possible to design an electrolysis system efficient or innovative enough that the input of electricity was significantly less than the power output of the hydrogen/oxygen engine?

Sorry, I'm a complete idiot when it comes to physics. I guess what I'm asking is, is the stored energy of the hydrogen greater than the energy required to transform it from a component of water to a burnable gas?


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: OJK]
    #5636503 - 05/16/06 06:25 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Would it be possible to design an electrolysis system efficient or innovative enough that the input of electricity was significantly less than the power output of the hydrogen/oxygen engine?




No. At very low power levels, the electrolysis will endotherm, releasing more energy in hydrogen/oxygen than what was used in the form of electricity, but it is very slow at these power levels, and the energy still comes from the heat around the system, not from "magic".

Quote:

I guess what I'm asking is, is the stored energy of the hydrogen greater than the energy required to transform it from a component of water to a burnable gas?




Not a stupid question. Actually, the correct question to be asking, but difficult to answer. There are two ways to "burn" hydrogen... the sun burns hydrogen at the atmoic level while the space shuttle burns hydrogen at the chemical level. At the chemical level, it takes more energy to tear water apart into hydrogen and oxygen than you get back when you burn the hydrogen and oxygen creating water. At the atomic level, you get much more energy when you fuse two hydrogen atoms together forming helium than it takes to release hydrogen gas from water; however, we cannot maintain an atomic hydrogen burn, thus we cannot use the energy. They are currently throwing billions of dollars into R&D trying to solve this problem. If anybody can figure out how to maintain an atomic burn of hydrogen, then the worlds energy problems are solved, quite literally.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5637181 - 05/16/06 12:07 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

This is pretty fantastic news if it works out.

I just can't imagine an electric battery big enough and an electrolysis process efficient enough to strip hydrogen and oxygen from water and run a vehicle the weight of a car at a journey of length.

It would of course be ideal to run a hydrogen vehicle on water because you wouldn't have to store combustable gas in the car but can a battery supply enough electricity to seperate enough gas from water to power the engine?

Hmmmm.


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OfflineKonnrade
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: TODAY]
    #5637976 - 05/16/06 03:16 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

The major issue isn't that the gas is combustible, it's mostly that even when compressed into a liquid it takes a very big tank to store an amount of fuel comparable to a tank of gasoline.

You can (and a university did) shoot a hydrogen tank with an incendiary bullet and not have any sort of explosion, just a violent leak from the hole that dissipates quickly. Hell, the real concern would be the instant creation of freezing temperatures as the gas expanded. But, tanks that store the hydrogen in a sort of absorbent substrate take things up to a higher yet level of safety.

Then again, water is far denser than hydrogen gas is, and it's 2/3 hydrogen (by molar ratio, not weight)... so it is of course a even more space-efficient and safer yet.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: TODAY]
    #5638308 - 05/16/06 04:37 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Zinc reacts with water to form hydrogen and zinc oxide at a temperature of a few hundred degrees.


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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5638401 - 05/16/06 04:58 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry, but what is your point? Was that a response to my post?

Are you saying that the reaction in this engine is likely zinc and water heated to the temperature necessary to break down water into hydrogen and oxygen?


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OfflineAscension
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: TODAY]
    #5640375 - 05/17/06 12:03 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Obviously not, because the guy said, it happens by electrolysis. Not by a reaction with a metal.

Sodium produces hydrogen when mixed with water and thats at room temp, but then your left with sodium hydroxide.

Besides, this technology is nothing new, electrolysis has been around for 100 or 200 years.
Its just now people are getting smart enough to take advantage of things we already know.


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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: OJK]
    #5641047 - 05/17/06 07:33 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
is the stored energy of the hydrogen greater than the energy required to transform it from a component of water to a burnable gas?




The electrochemicalaly stored energy of hydrogen is smaller than the energy required to create it from water via electrolysis.


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InvisibleTODAY
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Anno]
    #5642002 - 05/17/06 01:54 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Anno said:
Quote:

Odiumjunkie said:
is the stored energy of the hydrogen greater than the energy required to transform it from a component of water to a burnable gas?




The electrochemicalaly stored energy of hydrogen is smaller than the energy required to create it from water via electrolysis.




However, there are sources of electricity cheap enough to input into electrolysis of water with the goal of outputting hydrogen and oxygen gas. The gas could then be stored, shipped, stocked in stores and actually provide better utility than the electricity used to seperate the gas for the reasons of the ease of storing and transporting it.


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OfflineSeussA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: TODAY]
    #5643029 - 05/17/06 06:18 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

> The gas could then be stored, shipped, stocked in stores

All of which subtract from the overall efficiency of the system.


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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Seuss]
    #5645671 - 05/18/06 09:42 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, but if cheap power is available where electrolysis is run, the whole system of transporting the gas may become economical.

If a company can generate electricity with solar heat (there are solar thermal power plants in at least CA and AZ) where the sunshine is plentiful and the land is cheap and use that electricity for electrolysis then distributing the resulting gas may become economical. Of course I haven't done ample analysis but the principle stands.


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OfflineYthanA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: TODAY]
    #5645748 - 05/18/06 10:16 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineAnnoA
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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5685057 - 05/28/06 11:12 PM (17 years, 8 months ago)

http://www.randi.org/jr/2006-05/052606action.html#i3

Quote:

FIRE WATER

Incredible! We are apparently immersed in a scientifically-ignorant culture in which the media can’t figure out the simplest of what would have been a grade-school science project for my generation. Go to www.randi.org/media/WaterFuel.wmv and be appalled at what “inventor” Denny Klein is selling to FOX26 News in Clearwater, Florida, via their excited reporter Craig Patrick, as a system that will run a car for 100 miles “fueled” solely by four ounces of water! In the video, a hydrogen torch using “HHO technology” that Klein demonstrates, is described by ridiculous expressions such as, “hotter than the surface of the Sun,” and we’re told that it takes “only seconds to literally burn a hole through charcoal.” Duh! Charcoal burns, dummy!

The FOX video shows Klein holding the tip of the welder between his fingers, which, they marvel, “remains cool to the touch.” Duh! again. Any of this sort of torch acts the same. The tip is cool because the compressed gas, as it decompresses and exits, makes the metal tip cold. It’s only when the mixed gases – hydrogen and oxygen, in this case – burn, that heat is produced, and that happens just beyond the tip. WHERE’S THE MIRACLE HERE? Clearwater’s FOX TV tells us, “No other gas will do this." Wrong, juvenile, and naïve. Add, stupid.

We’re told, in the FOX video, that “people still have trouble believing him” when Klein tells them that his fuel is water. Small wonder. That water has to first be broken down into hydrogen and oxygen through a method known as electrolysis. That process was discovered back in the 1800s, and it uses more energy than can be gained from it by burning the two components – that’s called the Conservation of Energy law, and it hasn’t yet been repealed. Cars that run “on water” have been re-invented every few years. Recently there was Steven Horvath in Australia, who sold a lot of stock to losers, Henry Garrett in Texas – in 1935 – and Stanley Meyer, who was convicted of fraud in 1996. Andrija Puharich – who also “discovered” Uri Geller! – Archie Blue, Bob Boyce, Carl Cella, Charles H. Garrett, Daniel Dingel, Hector Pierre Vaes, Nakamatsu Yoshiro, Sam Leslie Leach, Stanley Meyer, and scores of others, all came up with this same insane idea, and all fell on their collective nose.

Now, I don’t know who Craig Patrick is, nor whether he has a grade-school education, but if FOX26 News thinks they’ve got a genius on board, they’re dreaming. However, Klein will attract investors with this juvenile idea, and I’m sure someone in Washington will spend some of our tax dollars looking into it. Count on it.




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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #5685941 - 05/29/06 09:41 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Zinc reacts with water to form hydrogen and zinc oxide at a temperature of a few hundred degrees.




Zinc is a very realistic energy source!

You can decompose zinc and water using a copper anode (basically copper wire which remains unaltered) and you generate electricity (zinc-copper battery) like so:

Zn + H2O --> ZnO + 2 electrons + H2

and the hydrogen can be used to power a fuel cell to bind the hydrogen to atmospheric oxygen, so that you basically get:

Zn + H2O + Air --> ZnO + 4 electrons + H2O

The entire zinc/water system weighs a mere 21 grams per molar electron (coulomb) and Zinc oxide, when heated or electrolyzed, returns to zinc so you basically turn electricity into fuel cell fuel into electricity, without the risks of hydrogen. Aluminium also is a very good candidate for this system, at a mere 9gr per mole of electrons, lead batteries hanging around 100gr for the same electricity capacity.

I see how his hybrid car works though: he combusts gasoline, drives a generator, uses the generator to electrolyse water and then burn the water to drive the motor. That's wasteful.

An interesting process thats being looked into is the age-old producer gas/ water gas method in which steam is led into glowing coal to form a combustible (but highly toxic) gas like so:
H2O + C --> CO + H2

The problem is that you're once again bringing fossilized carbon into the ecosystem.


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Re: Water Fuel - HHO Gas [Re: Ythan]
    #5685955 - 05/29/06 09:51 AM (17 years, 8 months ago)

I bought a 5lb zinc anode a coupla years back with the intention of making a zinc/air battery. I found some plans for a basic one. The main thing I need is a good air electrode


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